Answering old threads thread Part II

Derf

Well-known member
@Nick M simply quoted a verse. And neither that verse, nor any other Bible verse implies, or could imply that one or more of the Pope's un-Biblical statements is true.

Sure, the Pope, just like any other fallible man, could (perhaps does) claim the Holy Spirit gives him the words he says. But so what? Would you believe the Holy Spirit gives him the words he says?
If the verse can be used to say church doctrine can be determined without considering anyone else in the church, but merely based on the claim that the Holy Spirit gave a person that doctrine, nothing is off limits. My example of the Pope is not even an extreme case, since he or they do not make such statements without voluminous inputs from others in the RCC. But my point is that there is little to no constraint on what one might propose as doctrine. Mormonism, JW, Christian Science are all within the realm of possibility, if that verse is applicable to determining doctrine.
 

Lon

Well-known member
If the verse can be used to say church doctrine can be determined without considering anyone else in the church, but merely based on the claim that the Holy Spirit gave a person that doctrine, nothing is off limits. My example of the Pope is not even an extreme case, since he or they do not make such statements without voluminous inputs from others in the RCC. But my point is that there is little to no constraint on what one might propose as doctrine. Mormonism, JW, Christian Science are all within the realm of possibility, if that verse is applicable to determining doctrine.
They do anyway. Rather the denomination is the keeper of doctrine. It is entirely true you can choose whichever church seems best to you as well. Instead, we look for guidance if we are concerned regarding those we deem biblical. It helps keep us on the straight and narrow because we in particular are concerned. If our chosen leaders are off a nub, we will be too. If a lot, we too.
 

Derf

Well-known member
They do anyway. Rather the denomination is the keeper of doctrine. It is entirely true you can choose whichever church seems best to you as well. Instead, we look for guidance if we are concerned regarding those we deem biblical.
But "biblical" is unnecessary when one can merely claim the Spirit is giving the words, if we don't have to worry ahead of time what we are going to say (i.e., if we don't have to study the Bible at all), since we are going to be reminded at any point in time what the truth is. We all know this is a false way of determining doctrine. Even @Idolater will agree it is false, even if he allows for new doctrine from the Church.
It helps keep us on the straight and narrow because we in particular are concerned. If our chosen leaders are off a nub, we will be too. If a lot, we too.
Yet, because of the availability of the scriptures in our own languages, we don't have to be "off a nub" as badly as our chosen leaders, provided we stick to scripture, and don't follow every "wind" ("spirit"?) of doctrine.
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
12 The Holy Spirit will give you the words to say at the moment when you need them.

Peace be upon you and your household.
Really what I meant to say here is that it's the philosophy, or theology of the Apostles, which Jesus taught them, we call them 'disciples' for what reason idk. They were His students. He was their Teacher, as is plain throughout the Gospel accounts, and they were His students, and He taught them their philosophy.

Their philosophy then went on to guide them in establishing the Church. We get a peak into that philosophy when we see Peter reasoning from Psalms about how to handle Judas's vacant office of the 12th Apostle (there are supposed to be 12). We did not know, Peter did not know, that Jesus was going to directly intercede in nominating and confirming (iow hiring) Paul. So to see what Peter did do instead, before Jesus called Paul, his reasoning from the Scriptures (how else could Peter the fisherman reason from the Scriptures? immediately after Jesus Ascended? unless Jesus Himself taught Peter how to do it?), is enormously important for us all to get insight into the philosophy that Jesus taught His students, who turned into Apostles.

They could reason from the Scriptures. It's said of Paul lots of times that he reasoned from the Scriptures. And reasoning from the Scriptures involves hermeneutics. And since we do all believe as you demonstrate here, that the Holy Spirit will be providing the Apostles' words, we know that it's not just Apostolic hermeneutics, but the Holy Spirit's own, Personal hermeneutic.

So that's pretty important. That's therefore, the Holy Spirit's philosophy. The Holy Spirit's theology. The Holy Spirit's ontology, and ethic. That we can discern, when we rightly divide the Word of truth. Between what the Holy Spirit said (Roman Catholicism on the matter: He has spoken through the prophets) and the deep truth (“Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.”) beneath it.

Peace be upon you and your household.
 

Nick M

Born that men no longer die
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Google may also help. Did you check other versions or a commentary?
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
They do anyway. Rather the denomination is the keeper of doctrine. It is entirely true you can choose whichever church seems best to you as well. Instead, we look for guidance if we are concerned regarding those we deem biblical. It helps keep us on the straight and narrow because we in particular are concerned. If our chosen leaders are off a nub, we will be too. If a lot, we too.
Derf already said this in so many words but, just to offer my two cents, the plainly read scriptures stand as a standard by which doctrine can be compared and tested. The word "true" means "consistent". We believe the scripture are true because we believe them to be consistent with physical, religious and spiritual reality. It thereby gives us a standard by which relevant truth claims can be measured. If a religious truth claim is consistent with the scripture then it is consistent with reality because the scripture is consistent with reality.

Without such a standard, any wild-eyed doctrine stands shoulder to shoulder with any and every other. Without the scripture, David Koresh is the sinning Messiah, Jim Jones can have all the homosexual sex with his followers that he demands, John Calvin can teach that God predestined people to go to Hell, and the Pope can plead for murderers to removed from death row.
 
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Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
'Keep thinking about the passer rating. ESPN's rating is a black box; only the folks at ESPN know what it means. I don't think we need to get rid of the passer rating. I just think we need another metric, that can also be compared with attempts, that measures accuracy more than the blunt way that it's measured in the passer rating.

For example, interceptions are actually double counted, a little bit, in the passer rating, which is good, because I think throwing picks is the sign of a poor performance by the passer. It's double counted because an interception goes down as an interception, plus an incompletion, so it dings both completion percentage and interceptions.

But what the passer rating needs, is something like baseball's balls-and-strikes. Baseball has an umpire devoted to judging the accuracy of each pitch, and the NFL doesn't have this. It is well within the NFL's ability to assign a booth ref to make this judgment on each pass attempt. Sometimes well thrown balls are tipped by receivers into the hands of a defender, and instead of the passer getting credit for throwing a good ball, he is double penalized with an incompletion, and an interception.

I would recommend that anything close, goes to the passer, so if the ball is thrown and it's judged that the receiver could catch that ball, then it's a "strike," and if the receiver could not catch the ball, then it's a "ball."

Balls-and-strikes aren't everything, and one of the issues we'd have to deal with is that sometimes, coverage is going to make the "strike zone" so small as to be nonexistent, and when the passer throws the ball away, it would be marked down as a "ball," but it was the right choice, so this hypothetical metric wouldn't be the be all end all of a passer's performance, and that's why I'm not suggesting to trash the current passer rating.

But in a game where the passer makes 40 attempts, that's 40 "strikes" or "balls." The measure would be "strikes" per attempt, to normalize it with the other metrics in the passer rating; completions per attempt, TDs per attempt, yards per attempt, and interceptions per attempt. It would provide that missing vector that I've been prattling on about, and would help to fill in some of the blanks that we currently have to live with, with just the passer rating.

Another problem with passer rating alone is that TDs might be overweighted in an offense with a strong running game that can pound home the score on the ground in the red zone, even if the passer got the offense into the red zone reliably. The passer is penalized for not converting enough TDs through the air, even though he may command a dominating offense that scores plenty.

There are plenty of times when the passer, in the red zone, on say first or second and goal, throws away the ball because the coverage is too thick in the end zone, or in the middle of the field on first or second down, to avoid a sack, and that's frequently the right football play, rather than risk a horrible drive-ending interception. The balls-and-strikes metric would still show a "ball" on such occasions, which again is why this metric couldn't be used to fairly judge the passer's performance all by itself, but would complement the passer rating, providing that "texture" I mentioned in an earlier post.

And what I'm ultimately driving at, is to somehow sort the passers who are truly exceptional from those who benefit from excellent receivers. Ten seasons ago, the NE Patriots were on the verge of completing the finest NFL season in history, only to lose to the Giants in the SB, and I think that a "balls-and-strikes" metric would vindicate Brady in that game, and show that what happened, was that his receivers collectively pooped their pants, and dropped "strikes" far more frequently than they did all throughout that season. The passer can only be reasonably expected to throw "strikes." It is not fair to penalize the passer if receivers drop "strikes;" it assigns a magical quality to the passer to require, in order for him to get a good rating, that receivers catch catchable balls.

Great receivers can sometimes drop "strikes," just as well as they can sometimes catch "balls." Outstanding catches made by receivers on poorly thrown balls should go to the receiver's credit, and not to the passer, which is what the passer rating all by its lonesome does, whenever the receiver makes a terrific catch, and this again assigns a magical quality to the passer, in the stats. The passer can have his rating, but the "balls-and-strikes" metric would shine more light on what actually occurred.

Another matter is when defenses break down (which this year's Pats D has been doing regularly), leaving receivers uncovered. In such cases, the "strike zone" becomes larger, since there's no nearby defender who could catch or disrupt the pass. When the receiver is well-covered, the "strike zone" is small, and when the passer can throw "strikes" when the "strike zone" is small, then they are better than those who can only throw "strikes" when it is large (like when the receiver is uncovered, or poorly covered).

All of these issues are mentioned by game commentators, but there's nothing in the statistics to show game-by-game, season-by-season performance by the passer, so we have to take it on faith that it all averages or washes out in the passer rating, but I think the evidence against the passer rating being a good estimate of passer performance is solid, and the NFL does need to address their metrics somehow, and I think that a new "balls-and-strikes" metric would go a long way to doing that.

Anyway, :idunno:. :)

I brought up the prospect of a "balls-and-strikes" approach to passer efficiency rating in the NFL back before large language model generative A.I. models were a common thing, even before art A.I. and chess A.I. bots maybe, but now that we're here, the NFL should definitely imo put an A.I. bot to work analyzing every quarterback attempted pass on record, and assign a ball or strike call to the play. This should be augmented to the current passer rating.

Baseball's already experimenting with balls-and-strikes being called by bots. Whenever the NFL does do this, then we can finally know who the best passers in history were, probably without any controversy. Who was the most accurate? with the game on the line? all things considered? The A.I. age can answer it for us finally.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
I brought up the prospect of a "balls-and-strikes" approach to passer efficiency rating in the NFL back before large language model generative A.I. models were a common thing, even before art A.I. and chess A.I. bots maybe, but now that we're here, the NFL should definitely imo put an A.I. bot to work analyzing every quarterback attempted pass on record, and assign a ball or strike call to the play. This should be augmented to the current passer rating.

Baseball's already experimenting with balls-and-strikes being called by bots. Whenever the NFL does do this, then we can finally know who the best passers in history were, probably without any controversy. Who was the most accurate? with the game on the line? all things considered? The A.I. age can answer it for us finally.
There's more to a completed pass than the accuracy of the throw.

Of course that comment presumes that you are talking about assigning "strike" status to any completed pass and "ball" status to incomplete passes. If so, it would ignore when the quarterback throws the ball away to prevent getting sacked, it would ignore spikes that are intended to stop the clock, it would ignore perfectly thrown balls that were defended well and it would ignore perfectly thrown balls that were just dropped or otherwise not caught by the receiver.

I don't deny AI's ability to objectively analyze data but I cannot see how reducing a pass to either a ball or a strike would work. It isn't that binary of an issue.
 

Nick M

Born that men no longer die
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
David Koresh is the sinning Messiah, Jim Jones can have all the homosexual sex with his followers that he demands, John Calvin can teach that God predestined people to go to Hell, and the Pope can plead for murderers to removed from death row.
Interesting point. Because they do that without the support of scripture. Including those on TOL that follow the Pope and John Calvin. The links are dead.

Truster; 4237538 said:
July 17th 1999 at 10:30am. Didn't ask to be saved and didn't want to be saved, but I was and as soon as I was it was revealed to me what had happened. For the first time in my entire existence I knew I was alive and began to exercise trust. There began a conversation that morning that continues each and every day.My last thoughts at night are of my Elohim and Saviour and my first thoughts in the morning are of Him.

To the praise of the glory of His grace.

Nang;3357665 said:
God never rejected the reprobate according to His foreknowledge of their actions. God rejects reprobates according to His will.

God formed all men, either for dishonor or honor, according to His willful purposes and good pleasure.

To reject this truth is disbelief and a rejection of Sovereign God Himself.
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
There's more to a completed pass than the accuracy of the throw.

Of course that comment presumes that you are talking about assigning "strike" status to any completed pass and "ball" status to incomplete passes. If so, it would ignore when the quarterback throws the ball away to prevent getting sacked, it would ignore spikes that are intended to stop the clock, it would ignore perfectly thrown balls that were defended well and it would ignore perfectly thrown balls that were just dropped or otherwise not caught by the receiver.

All of that and more was considered in the thought Clete. The target of this idea was the passer efficiency rating which is a four-part metric where interceptions, completions, yards, and touchdowns are all normalized (divided by) pass attempts. As you point out, there are numerous scenarios that happen every game that tend to raise the passer rating which should not, and others which lower it when it should not.

The idea was to augment this rating with a "balls-and-strikes" type metric, which is something which would have to be done retroactively, using game films. It would ofc need to take into account all the things you mention and then some, so that for example, if a team is "knocking on the door" in the red zone, and the passer throws the ball away to avoid a sack, that wouldn't be the same as when he's throwing to one of his receivers.

otoh what if the passer tries to throw away the ball, but doesn't throw it far enough away and gets an interception? It's like if a pitcher in baseball tries to intentionally walk a batter (I know they don't actually have to throw four balls anymore, but when they used to have to actually throw four balls to intentionally walk a guy), but doesn't throw it quite far enough out of the strike zone and the hitter actually makes contact, that in football would be like trying to throw the ball out of bounds but doesn't throw it hard enough or something.

I don't deny AI's ability to objectively analyze data but I cannot see how reducing a pass to either a ball or a strike would work. It isn't that binary of an issue.

An A.I. bot could analyze all the film of every pass on record and assign something like a "balls-and-strikes" metric, which could help separate passers who have equal passer ratings due to luck versus skill, was all.
 

Derf

Well-known member
All of that and more was considered in the thought Clete. The target of this idea was the passer efficiency rating which is a four-part metric where interceptions, completions, yards, and touchdowns are all normalized (divided by) pass attempts. As you point out, there are numerous scenarios that happen every game that tend to raise the passer rating which should not, and others which lower it when it should not.

The idea was to augment this rating with a "balls-and-strikes" type metric, which is something which would have to be done retroactively, using game films. It would ofc need to take into account all the things you mention and then some, so that for example, if a team is "knocking on the door" in the red zone, and the passer throws the ball away to avoid a sack, that wouldn't be the same as when he's throwing to one of his receivers.

otoh what if the passer tries to throw away the ball, but doesn't throw it far enough away and gets an interception? It's like if a pitcher in baseball tries to intentionally walk a batter (I know they don't actually have to throw four balls anymore, but when they used to have to actually throw four balls to intentionally walk a guy), but doesn't throw it quite far enough out of the strike zone and the hitter actually makes contact, that in football would be like trying to throw the ball out of bounds but doesn't throw it hard enough or something.



An A.I. bot could analyze all the film of every pass on record and assign something like a "balls-and-strikes" metric, which could help separate passers who have equal passer ratings due to luck versus skill, was all.
Couldn't AI fabricate a whole game anyway? Metrics too.
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Couldn't AI fabricate a whole game anyway? Metrics too.

It could also be trained to know that when a receiver is wide open that it doesn't take an Aaron Rodgers or Joe Montana to throw a "strike", and also when an elite receiver catches a "ball". These are the types of scenarios I'd figure an NFL A.I. bot could be trained to do. As was mentioned in the original thread, there are times a ball is tipped through no fault of the passer, and turns into an interception, which is a black mark on the passer rating as it now stands. But a "balls-and-strikes" metric would help even out the playing field in terms of measuring how good a job a passer is doing, all things considered.

It would also, now that I think of it, help to separate the receivers who have a good quarterback, from those who have a turkey. Elite receivers can catch poorly thrown balls better than a second-stringer, who might be so bad that he drops a ball thrown right into his hands (which in today's passer rating would go against the passer as an incompletion simpliciter—although "drops" are counted in game statistics, they don't figure in to the passer rating).
 

Clete

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It could also be trained to know that when a receiver is wide open that it doesn't take an Aaron Rodgers or Joe Montana to throw a "strike", and also when an elite receiver catches a "ball". These are the types of scenarios I'd figure an NFL A.I. bot could be trained to do. As was mentioned in the original thread, there are times a ball is tipped through no fault of the passer, and turns into an interception, which is a black mark on the passer rating as it now stands. But a "balls-and-strikes" metric would help even out the playing field in terms of measuring how good a job a passer is doing, all things considered.

It would also, now that I think of it, help to separate the receivers who have a good quarterback, from those who have a turkey. Elite receivers can catch poorly thrown balls better than a second-stringer, who might be so bad that he drops a ball thrown right into his hands (which in today's passer rating would go against the passer as an incompletion simpliciter—although "drops" are counted in game statistics, they don't figure in to the passer rating).
I suspect that adding such complexity to the QB rating system would have less of an effect than you might think. There seems to be something of a diminishing return on adding parameters to such analytics. You sometimes get weird results that end up muddying the water rather than clearing it up and sometimes you can add all kinds of granularity to a computation and end up with a nearly identical result that makes all the detail gathering a waste of time and energy. There's no way to know though, until you try it!

I'd be shocked to find out that there isn't anyone already trying to figure out ways to use AI in a manner close to what you're suggesting. I'm certain that it has everything to do with the new propensity of teams to go for it on fourth down now. That didn't hardly ever happen before. Now it's multiple times a game. AI has got to have something to do with that change.
 

Lon

Well-known member
I'd be shocked to find out that there isn't anyone already trying to figure out ways to use AI in a manner close to what you're suggesting. I'm certain that it has everything to do with the new propensity of teams to go for it on fourth down now. That didn't hardly ever happen before. Now it's multiple times a game. AI has got to have something to do with that change.
...and for gambling, I'd expect. It'd have to be in the works.
 

Clete

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...and for gambling, I'd expect. It'd have to be in the works.
On both sides of the table.

This new "over-under" gambling thing that so many people are doing now is all about AI powered statistical analysis and it's maybe the best thing that ever happened to bet booking websites. It's easy to understand so more people feel comfortable doing it and the AI stat analysis makes it harder for people to consistently win those bets than it seems. Plus, the house adds a fee that basically guarantees they'll make a profit on these bets in the long term. There aren't too many businesses out there where you're pretty much guaranteed to make between 5-10% profit, no matter what happens.

Also, there's already been "AI" versions of trading bots in existence for decades that automatically buy and sell stocks, bonds, ETFs, futures, options, you name it. Hard to imagine that they haven't been getting better and better and better over the years. I wonder how long before a really good AI takes over the jobs of all the LFPs (Licensed Financial Planner) in the world? Indeed, I wonder what percentage of LFPs are using AI to help make their trading decisions for them?
 
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