G I T – Right, the ends do not justify the means, but the fact is that they never do. Never. What justifies anything is if it is righteous or not. The question of the ends justifying the means is a handy tool to emphasize just that one aspect of the same truth. Consider the following to help you get a better focus on what is more foundational than ends and means.
Good and evil
- It is always right to oppose and reject what is evil,
it is always wrong to go along with and accept what is evil.
It’s always right to accept and go along with what is good,
it’s always wrong to oppose and reject what is good.
Such is simply the opposing nature of good and evil.
If you have the ability to do good and to thwart evil, the more you do not do that, the more wrong (or evil) you are for not doing that. You can’t be good and not oppose evil at the same time (given equal ability to be good and to oppose evil). Evil and good are that naturally opposed.
And I think that goodness and righteousness are an absolute standard that is according to God’s character and ways, but evil is that which opposes and does not accept what is good and righteous. So it is not an absolute standard in the same sense as righteousness and goodness, it’s more of an anti-standard in my understanding.
It is not always wrong to lie, especially if it’s your only tool you have to effectively oppose evil. But how does that break down? It’s always good to do good, it’s always good to oppose evil. It’s always evil to not oppose evil. So in the case of the Nazis and the Jews, murder is evil, and saving and protecting innocent lives is good. Saving the lives of the Jews was more important than your reputation for “always” telling the truth. So you humble your sense of self righteousness concerning always telling the truth to the reality that their lives are way more important to protect.
And also that since you are lying for a purely righteous reason ...
(ah ha, theres that ends justifies the means issue)
(the more important and foundational precept is to determine what is the right thing to do, not to ask if the ends justifies anything, and the answer is that it is always good to oppose evil)
... therefore the lying is not held against you because it was the only way to do what was right and protect what was way more important to protect.
Lying is wrong when you do it immorally, and if you lie inappropriately say about insignificant amoral issues, then you would only risk hurting your personal integrity and help to destroy the foundation of otherwise good and godly relationships, which is
trust, honesty, respect, caring, time together, integrity, etc.
You said
so, if we can do it, couldn't God do it as well? is God allowed to use lying as a means to bring about a good ends? if so, the calvinist is allowed to say God can lie about the destruction he knows he will never bring on them in order to bring about good means, namely repentence of the people.
again though, this all depends on whether or not the ends justify the means.
what do you guys think? do the ends justify the means?
Sure, God is allowed to use any morally upright method against evil. But remember, some differences apply to the closed view and their understanding of God’s dealings with creation. To the extent that they are consistent and they maintain that everything ultimately happens according to God’s will, then to that extent there should never be a case where God would need to lie in order to get what He wants to happen! God could always remain truthful and still get what He wants. But according to the OV, God’s will does not always happen in every conceivable way, and yet God remains in control as the ultimate authority but may reasonably resort to using lies in order to thwart the efforts of evil. God was deceptive at the cross because if the devil would have known God’s ultimate plans, the devil would have done everything in his power to make sure that Jesus lives forever without voluntarily dying for us.
We don’t owe too much civility and respect to evil people, that would be trying to be nicer than God. And no one can do that, and no one should try neither.
Secondly, they are not allowed to go beyond the limits of their claim. If God was to some very real extent being purposefully dishonest about His intended course of action, and then by doing so God attained what He wanted by manipulating Nineveh into national repentance, God would have to stop the dishonesty after the goal had been reached and evil was no longer to be opposed!
It would be analogous to the Nazis and the Jews if AFTERWARDS when the Jewish family hid in your home was saved from the evil, but you kept lying anyways even though the evil was completely done away with. For example, lets say that this happened right near the end of the war. For you to continue propagating the lie that they are not in your home, might entail them not getting the food and supplies they need since you act as though they are not there, and you might not let them know the war is over because, they are honestly not there. So such propagation of a lie for no good reason is only senseless and this inappropriate lying actually becomes immoral after the justification for doing so is removed.
Again, it’s not ends justifies the means, there is one righteous standard of right and wrong and conformity to that is what matters for justification.
If they were right and God was not telling the truth but was rather using some sort of reverse psychology, then after they repented, He would no longer put on the show that what He honestly was intending on actually harming them by bringing a national disaster upon them as correlated by God’s opposing anger. There is no moral grounds for perpetuating a lie when there is no evil to oppose, so it is the fact of what God said AFTER they repented, that refutes the notion that God was just using reverse psychology and not telling the truth.
I don’t think it’s so much about the ends justifying the means, as it is about what is and what is not right. Even the statement, the ends justifies the means is subject to whether or not that test is according to righteousness or not.
- It is always right to oppose and reject what is evil,
it is always wrong to go along with and accept what is evil.
It’s always right to accept and go along with what is good,
it’s always wrong to oppose and reject what is good.
Such is simply the nature of good and evil.
It’s good to have you aboard.
