An exclusively Catholic doctrine on justification? Not on TOL

[musterion]

Repent means you have every intention not to sin.

After one is saved, they are to live to please God, and if they do sin, they can receive forgiveness and mercy.

So what you're saying is, there is no such thing as plenary/complete forgiveness of sin -- at least not before one dies and arrives in Heaven?

 

[God's Truth]

Salvation by good intentions. :down:


If they still have good intentions?

Jesus knows everyone's heart.

How is it you don't know that?

 

[God's Truth]

So what you're saying is, there is no such thing as plenary/complete forgiveness of sin -- at least not before one dies and arrives in Heaven?

I have no idea how you got that. Is that what you think of when Jesus says to repent?

Luke 13:3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

 

[Brother Ducky]

The only people I have found that come close are the Clear Gospel folks, but in my contact with them even they are still hung up on water rites as required or expected by God... as one of the SoFs says. IFBs and your average evangelical couldn't say it any better.



I've looked but I know of no one outside of MAD -- no one -- who does not believe a water rite, in some form, is not required or at least expected by God...and that makes it a work.

Salvation Army?

 

[God's Truth]

A Catholic encyclopedia defines justification as,



It goes on to say how justification is obtained:



Terminology varies but this is the essence of what many non-Catholics here believe...that one cannot be justified by God without works (usually camouflaged by calling it obedience) because justification is not an act of God alone based on the work of Christ alone, but a PROCESS in which a person must cooperate with Christ by works, or at least "bear the fruit" of participating (which still amounts to works), or be lost.

The Calvinistic doctrine of Lordship Salvation, which has spread far beyond the boundaries of Reformed churches, is a distilled and highly refined version of this doctrine but it teaches basically the same thing: if a believer is not bringing forth the "fruit" of authenticating works, his salvation is dubious if not impossible.

@God's Truth is one professing non-Catholic with basically the same belief as taught by Rome but by no means is the only one. Most on TOL hold to some form of it. MADs are almost the only ones who repudiate any such belief.

The Catholics are wrong on how to be justified by God.

The Catholics make up works and do things that God says not to do.

I however believe the scriptures that tell us what the Word says to do.

How were the Jews justified in the old testament?

They were justified by doing the ceremonial works.

The ceremonial works are works for the Jews to purify/justify themselves before God, the exact way God said too.

The Catholics do things God hates, and they tell others to do these things too or they are not justified.

How are people justified today? They are justified by doing exactly what Jesus says to do.

 

[musterion]

How are people justified today? They are justified by doing exactly what Jesus says to do.

Then go and sell all you have.

 

[musterion]

I have no idea how you got that. Is that what you think of when Jesus says to repent?

Luke 13:3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

You dodged the question. I'm just asking you what you really believe.

IS there such a thing as knowing one has plenary/complete and permanent forgiveness of sin this side of judgment, or not?

 

[God's Truth]

You dodged the question. I'm just asking you what you really believe.

IS there such a thing as knowing one has plenary/complete and permanent forgiveness of sin this side of judgment, or not?

Definitely.

 

[God's Truth]

Then go and sell all you have.

Jesus doesn't tell everyone to do that.

 

[musterion]

Definitely.

Congratulations, you now believe in unconditional permanent justification in Christ. How's it feel?

 

[God's Truth]

Congratulations, you now believe in unconditional permanent justification in Christ. How's it feel?

I am forgiven because I wanted to be His child; and I repented and called on Jesus to help me.

 

[Right Divider]

I am forgiven because I wanted to be His child; and I repented and called on Jesus to help me.

I, I , I .... you're very into yourself.

To "help you".... Jesus doesn't just "help" me, He does everything for me.

 

[God's Truth]

I, I , I .... you're very into yourself.

To "help you".... Jesus doesn't just "help" me, He does everything for me.

You aren't disproving anything.

 

[God's Truth]

Being saved is about a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

 

[musterion]

Being saved is about a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Tell the truth: you've proved for years that you believe being saved means enduring in obedience, or being lost.

 

[God's Truth]

Tell the truth: you've proved for years that you believe being saved means enduring in obedience, or being lost.

There is a realm of the Spirit. Do you understand what that means? Do you know how to be in that realm? How to get in that realm and stay there?

 

[Nihilo]

I have no idea how you got that. Is that what you think of when Jesus says to repent?

Luke 13:3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

Repentance is given by God. 2nd Timothy 2:25 (KJV)

 

[CherubRam]

The Catholics encourage good works from their members, but when it comes to other congregations, they discourage people of good works. I have seen it many times.

 

[Nihilo]

Don't forget what happened, when the Lord Jesus said that repentance is given by God (John 6:65 KJV ; cf. 2nd Timothy 2:25 KJV):

John 6:66 (KJV)

 

[God's Truth]

Don't forget what happened, when the Lord Jesus said that repentance is given by God (John 6:65 KJV ; cf. 2nd Timothy 2:25 KJV):

John 6:66 (KJV)

Oh no, you have those scriptures wrong.

The scripture John 6:65 is about God cutting off the Jews who did not have faith when Jesus walked the earth, and then only allowing those who already belonged to God and had faith.

The scripture 2 Timothy 2:25 is about being gentle with those who oppose the truth, so that the one being taught about God does not get defensive and then hardened themselves from repenting and then being saved.


The scripture John 6:66 shows those without faith and they did not trust Jesus.