An exclusively Catholic doctrine on justification? Not on TOL

[Lon]

Water baptism was Israel's. Not yours.

Realize only MAD thinks so. I acquiesce the point but would reiterate Nick, to go gently. I don't believe it a huge issue.

 

[musterion]

Realize only MAD thinks so. I acquiesce the point but would reiterate Nick, to go gently. I don't believe it a huge issue.

When people put stock in it as a spiritual box that has to be checked to get into Heaven? As most people do, or are told to do? Yes, Lon, it is a VERY big deal.

Step at a time here. There's only two choices:

Water baptism (in whatever mode or form) either must be submitted to in order to please God, or it does not.

It's that simple.

 

[musterion]

Sorry, I read "MacArthur." My eyesight isn't what it used to be.

As you know, Johnny Mac need not even be quoted here; decades ago he jettisoned what remaining shreds of disp'ism he ever had.

 

[Nang]

When people put stock in it as a spiritual box that has to be checked to get into Heaven? As most people do, or are told to do? Yes, Lon, it is a VERY big deal.

Step at a time here. There's only two choices:

Water baptism (in whatever mode or form) either must be submitted to in order to please God, or it does not.

It's that simple.

There are more than two purposes for the ritual and practice of baptism, so the premise for your OP is faulty.

For example, Jesus Christ was baptized, but Scripture does not say He subjected Himself to the ritual, only to "please God."

 

[Lon]

When people put stock in it as a spiritual box that has to be checked to get into Heaven? As most people do, or are told to do? Yes, Lon, it is a VERY big deal.

I don't know many that do.

1 Step at a time here. There's only two choices:

Water baptism (in whatever mode or form) either must be submitted to in order to please God, or it does not.

It's that simple.

No, pleasing God, as far as I'm aware, is very different from salvation requirements. For most, it would be an act of obedience. A big one? Not compared to say, loving your neighbor, and that not for salvation but because of it. -Lon

 

[musterion]

I don't know many that do.

Not going to argue this with you, Lon, because I do know many. Do they put it in those terms? No. Is it still what they believe as evidenced by their rules and practice? Yes. Remember that I'm an ex-IFB and before that ex-loosey-goosey evangellyfish. That's a nice cross-section of current evangelicalilsm-fundamentalism (so called).

I've repeatedly posted Baptist denominational year-end figures showing where they count their number of converts NOT as how many people believe the Gospel but how many people they got in the tank. That is how they officially count who is "Christian." That shows you what they really believe it takes to be saved, and even most Baptists won't come out and say you MUST be water baptized or they will not accept you into fellowship or as a Christian (ask me how I know that; I've told that story before too).

 

[Zeke]

Not going to argue this with you, Lon, because I do know many. Do they put it in those terms? No. Is it still what they believe as evidenced by their rules and practice? Yes. Remember that I'm an ex-IFB and before that ex-loosey-goosey evangellyfish. That's a nice cross-section of current evangelicalilsm-fundamentalism (so called).

I've repeatedly posted Baptist denominational year-end figures showing where they count their number of converts NOT as how many people believe the Gospel but how many people they got in the tank. That is how they officially count who is "Christian." That shows you what they really believe it takes to be saved, and even most Baptists won't come out and say you MUST be water baptized or they will not accept you into fellowship or as a Christian (ask me how I know that; I've told that story before too).

Yet how are you any different than all theology based on history and future? when the scripture is about NOW, you claim the mystery yet still need a future event to seal the deal to enter the kingdom that isn't time based, which leaves you boxing the intellectual prophetic winds, tick,tick,tick,tick, Matt 11:11, and Galatians 4:20-28 shows the spiritual aspect of the eternal Christ awakened in flesh that you refuse to except while mesmerized by allegorical letters taken literally as history and future, Matt 3:2 in you Luke 17:20-21, your now is running out of time.

 

[musterion]

@Lon

Also, I've told this story before. About 15 years ago my wife and I were attending an IFB church in Indiana. We'd been there for some time and liked the preaching (at the time) so decided to ask the pastor about joining. We stood out in the lobby and he asked us a few questions about how long we were married, etc...relatively trifling stuff. Did not once ask us what the saving Gospel is. Instead, he asked us TWICE "You've been baptized?" I said yes we had been, in college...but a few moments later he said it again as if to make SURE we were legitimate..."But you've been baptized?" I lost my patience a bit and said "YES, we've been baptized!" We never officially joined, just kept attending for a few years until we moved out of state, but for the longest time I kept wondering, "Why the heck was he so interested in whether we'd been water baptized?"

Now I know why.

 

[Lon]

Yet how are you any different than all theology based on history and future? when the scripture is about NOW, you claim the mystery yet still need a future event to seal the deal to enter the kingdom that isn't time based, which leaves you boxing the intellectual prophetic winds, tick,tick,tick,tick, Matt 11:11, and Galatians 4:20-28 shows the spiritual aspect of the eternal Christ awakened in flesh that you refuse to except while mesmerized by allegorical letters taken literally as history and future, Matt 3:2 in you Luke 17:20-21, your now is running out of time.

You are too esoteric any more, to be involved in meaningful conversation with most of us, Zeke. You've literally lost touch with other's reality and cannot try to awaken a principle. Most spiritualists have lost touch so much with realities the rest of us take for granted, that your effect is babble and nonsense to most. My uncle, on drugs, and my aunt's boyfriend, on drugs, spoke in these kinds of ethereal expressions. I don't think all spiritualist new-agers are on drugs, but it is clear a good many are. There CAN be no spiritual principle from one who is caught in addiction and vice. If you are a spiritualist that doesn't do drugs? You have to work extra hard to be relevant to those you really don't understand. Your and my mind is VERY little to be traipsing the universe without holding the Owner of the universe's hand. Yeah, its a leash, and necessary mandatory so your and my little mind doesn't get lost. -Lon

 

[musterion]

I looked up that church's website. See for yourself where the emphasis lies insofar as recorded figures:

With this mission and purpose as our only guide, and through the power of the Holy Spirit working in and through this congregation, we report numerous professions of faith taking place in the various services, ministries, programs, counseling, and face to face gospel witness of believers attached to this body. The number of believers following the Lord in baptism for fiscal year 2015/2016 numbered 16. Those who have chosen to join with us as members of Grace Baptist Church during the same fiscal year number at 12.

Note the emphasis for fellowship:

New members, received on a motion by ______________ that was seconded by ________, were as follows:

By believer’s baptism: [three names]
By statement of faith: [1 name]
By transfer of letter: [1 name]

 

[musterion]

Here's the core of their gospel presentation...Lordship Salvation right down the line.

 

[Lon]

I looked up that church's website. See for yourself where the emphasis lies insofar as recorded figures:
Note the emphasis for fellowship:

Thanks. If it gets to the point where baptism is salvation, I have concern as well. For membership? I'm not as concerned especially as 'Baptist' is in the name. Rather, I think it important to discuss what such means for MAD. It would be also interesting to me, for instance, to find out how many MAD have actually been baptized. Paul was glad he had not baptized many (seems like this was covered in another thread and more specific than the generality or off-trail of this one in particular). For me, the subject has some to do with the thread, in that it expressed MAD concerns over the similarities as well as has a nice tie-in to how ordinances affect us all between Orthodox, Protestant, and other denominations. Thank you for taking a few posts in to consideration and giving meaningful feedback. -Lon

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

You are too esoteric any more, to be involved in meaningful conversation with most of us, Zeke. You've literally lost touch with other's reality and cannot try to awaken a principle. Most spiritualists have lost touch so much with realities the rest of us take for granted, that your effect is babble and nonsense to most. My uncle, on drugs, and my aunt's boyfriend, on drugs, spoke in these kinds of ethereal expressions. I don't think all spiritualist new-agers are on drugs, but it is clear a good many are. There CAN be no spiritual principle from one who is caught in addiction and vice. If you are a spiritualist that doesn't do drugs? You have to work extra hard to be relevant to those you really don't understand. Your and my mind is VERY little to be traipsing the universe without holding the Owner of the universe's hand. Yeah, its a leash, and necessary mandatory so your and my little mind doesn't get lost. -Lon

That's what he said. lol

11The words of wise men are like goads, and masters of these collections are like well-driven nails; they are given by one Shepherd.

12But beyond this, my son, be warned: the writing of many books is endless, and excessive devotion to books is wearying to the body.

13The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person.…


Proverbs 5:20-22Christian Standard Bible (CSB)
20*
Why, my son, would you lose yourself
with a forbidden woman
or embrace a wayward woman?
21*
For a man’s ways are before the Lord’s eyes,
and he considers all his paths.
22*
A wicked man’s iniquities will trap him;
he will become tangled in the ropes of his own sin.

 

[Lon]

Spoiler

That's what he said. lol

11The words of wise men are like goads, and masters of these collections are like well-driven nails; they are given by one Shepherd.

12But beyond this, my son, be warned: the writing of many books is endless, and excessive devotion to books is wearying to the body.

13The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person.…


Proverbs 5:20-22Christian Standard Bible (CSB)
20*
Why, my son, would you lose yourself
with a forbidden woman
or embrace a wayward woman?

21*
For a man’s ways are before the Lord’s eyes,
and he considers all his paths.
22*
A wicked man’s iniquities will trap him;
he will become tangled in the ropes of his own sin.

Yeah, I'm not sure about vices, I just have found that it many times goes hand in hand with New Age spiritualists. It isn't good. -Lon

 

[Lon]

Here's the core of their gospel presentation...Lordship Salvation right down the line.

"You MUST" also troubling. You'd think there would be scriptures along with such a post. Perhaps a thread "Significant spiritual concerns with Baptists" or some such. I'm pretty sure we've never discussed Baptists from such a concern on TOL. I am affiliated with the Southern Baptists. Though we are all independent, I have seen similar within some of the independent churches as well. I kind of hate to see some discussions get lost within pages here on TOL. It doesn't come up as a Baptist specific TOL search. Perhaps it isn't just that, but your concerns certainly all are. Did you perchance start a thread on this yet, Musterion?

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Thanks. If it gets to the point where baptism is salvation, I have concern as well. For membership? I'm not as concerned especially as 'Baptist' is in the name. Rather, I think it important to discuss what such means for MAD. It would be also interesting to me, for instance, to find out how many MAD have actually been baptized. Paul was glad he had not baptized many (seems like this was covered in another thread and more specific than the generality or off-trail of this one in particular). For me, the subject has some to do with the thread, in that it expressed MAD concerns over the similarities as well as has a nice tie-in to how ordinances affect us all between Orthodox, Protestant, and other denominations. Thank you for taking a few posts in to consideration and giving meaningful feedback. -Lon

I baptized 4 people many years ago.

1 guy said, "man look at the trail a trash I left in that water".

The second two was a man and his wife.

Afterward, I felt led to read them 2Peter 1.

The fourth and last guy lost his fear of water and took off swimmin'.

That was at least 10 years ago.

Couldn't tell yuh where those folks are now.:idunno:

Was I sposed to baptize them or not?

Romans 14:4 4
Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the LORD is able to make them stand.

 

[Zeke]

You are too esoteric any more, to be involved in meaningful conversation with most of us, Zeke. You've literally lost touch with other's reality and cannot try to awaken a principle. Most spiritualists have lost touch so much with realities the rest of us take for granted, that your effect is babble and nonsense to most. My uncle, on drugs, and my aunt's boyfriend, on drugs, spoke in these kinds of ethereal expressions. I don't think all spiritualist new-agers are on drugs, but it is clear a good many are. There CAN be no spiritual principle from one who is caught in addiction and vice. If you are a spiritualist that doesn't do drugs? You have to work extra hard to be relevant to those you really don't understand. Your and my mind is VERY little to be traipsing the universe without holding the Owner of the universe's hand. Yeah, its a leash, and necessary mandatory so your and my little mind doesn't get lost. -Lon

The mystery of Christ within is a nice theological trinket to pretend on Lon like Mid Acts also does, but until you experience Galatians 1:12 you will stay a secular pretender waiting, and waiting, for something new under the sun. The only relevance would be seeing the Spirit break the spell of religious bigotry that binds you're heart with electoral pride, certainly belongs in secularism and this kingdom of so called logical reasoning based on past and future observable signs outside the kingdom of God Luke 17:20-21.

 

[musterion]

Perhaps it isn't just that, but your concerns certainly all are. Did you perchance start a thread on this yet, Musterion?

No, I don't see the point. "Baptist distinctives" are really meaningless to me now; not just because I'm no longer one of them but because, as you said, the problem isn't Baptist-specific.

What I mean is, I now look at everything (or try to) through the very, very simple and stark lens of the Gospel of grace. Either an individual, church or denomination preaches it...or not. Almost none do -- almost all put some form of work in the mix.. up front or on the back end, or both. L.S. is one example. Water baptism is the other (bigger and far older) example. These problems are not at all unique to Baptists, so there's no point in dedicating a thread just to them.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Yeah, I'm not sure about vices, I just have found that it many times goes hand in hand with New Age spiritualists. It isn't good. -Lon

Glad you said many and not all.

Course I'll reserve judgement on yer ability to even make that call.

 

[Lon]

Glad you said many and not all.

Course I'll reserve judgement on yer ability to even make that call.

You may. As far as my involvement with spiritualists, it often carries drug use as acceptable and viable. Why? Because, specifically, Christianity is incompatible with drug use and they know this. Therefore, in order to deal with their own abuses, they modify spirituality to align with their life-choices. In a nutshell, the bible says they 'suppress' the truth. You can reserve judgement all you like. Imho, it is an unbiblical reserve. Scripture cannot lie. Anyone who is not a bible-believing Christian, is suppressing the truth and making excuse for flesh concerns. You'll rarely, if ever, see any spiritualist back-pedal from the accusation. I am very adamant that drug use is against Ephesians 5:18. They will tell you immediately that the 'letter' of the law kills but what they really mean is, it is killing the old man in them, and they don't want him to die so they make up odd views so they do not have to follow Christ. Something is wrong, 1M1S. Pay attention. These signs are clear and clearly given in scripture. Don't suppress His truth by excusing others who suppress His truth. It is not wise.