An excerpt from the original Pilgrims in the Plymoth colony.
- Thread starter Nick M
- Start date
Paul says stop doing evil things. Paul says not to even be friends or eat with such people. He also says you sinned against God and deserve to go to hell. He also says even those that didn't are dead because of what Adam did. But now, because of what the Lord Jesus Christ did, we can be saved.
dMore, from the ending. It is a short read, but much of it is things in the colony.
Again, these are points from Paul.
7 Now I pray to God that you do no evil, not that we should appear approved, but that you should do what is honorable, though we may seem disqualified.
Do not do evil, or you will seem to be disqualified. KJV calls it reprobates. But you get the idea. You don't tell them your behavior changed because you are Christian and it saves you. It doesn't. Do it because it is right.
Again, these are points from Paul.
7 Now I pray to God that you do no evil, not that we should appear approved, but that you should do what is honorable, though we may seem disqualified.
Do not do evil, or you will seem to be disqualified. KJV calls it reprobates. But you get the idea. You don't tell them your behavior changed because you are Christian and it saves you. It doesn't. Do it because it is right.
The Pilgrims were MAD Paul people, no wonder they are hated so much.
I always find it fascinating that if you go back even just a few hundred years, people wrote letters with much greater detail and verbosity than people of the last couple decades. Even letters from soldiers in the American Civil War contained far more to them than from letters from people today.
Actually the Pilgrims were Calvinists. They were originally known as Separatists.The Pilgrims were MAD Paul people, no wonder they are hated so much.
Here's an excerpt from a book, The Pilgrim Fathers of New England, written by a guy by the name of Carlos Martyn on the Pilgrims which was published in 1867. It's available through the Gutenberg Project.
"The Protestant world was at this time divided between two regal phases of reform. “Luther’s rationale,” says Bancroft, “was based upon the sublime but simple truth which lies at the bottom of morals, the paramount value of character and purity of conscience; the superiority of right dispositions over ceremonial exactness; and, as he expressed it, ‘justification by faith alone.’ But he hesitated to deny the real presence, and was indifferent to the observance of external ceremonies. Calvin, with sterner dialectics, sanctioned by his power as the ablest writer of his age, attacked the Roman doctrines respecting the communion, and esteemed as a commemoration the rite which the papists reverenced as a sacrifice. Luther acknowledged princes as his protectors, and in the ceremonies of worship favored magnificence as an aid to devotion; Calvin was the guide of Swiss republics, and avoided in their churches all appeals to the senses as crimes against religion. Luther resisted the Roman church for its immorality; Calvin for its idolatry. Luther exposed the folly of superstition, ridiculed the hair-shirt and the scourge, the purchased indulgence, and the dearly-bought masses for the dead; Calvin shrunk from their criminality with impatient horror. Luther permitted the cross, the taper, pictures, images, as things of indifference; Calvin demanded a spiritual worship in its utmost purity.”[24]"
"The Separatists were ardent Calvinists. They esteemed the “offices and callings, courts and canons” of the English church “monuments of idolatry.” Those of the North of England, though “presently they were scoffed and scorned by the profane multitude, and their ministers urged with the yoke of subscription,” yet held “that the lordly power of the prelates ought not to be submitted to.”[25]"
That isn't possible unless the history posted is forgery. They are mutually exclusive. And John Calvin and many followers think a selected group is taken against their will and saved. They say that here even. They are saved because he wanted to save them, not because they accepted his reconciliation.
That's rather unlikely. I have read hundreds of Gutenberg Project's books and I've never run across a forgery. There are a lot of individuals involved in picking and editing their books and if one was a forgery someone would have discovered it.
One of them has to be. Or they aren't Calvinists. The author calling them that may also not understand the position either. Many self righteous "infidels" of the Acts 2 and RCC call Christians "Calvinists" when I point out Christianity is not a changed life, but an exchanged life. Saved by what he did on the cross.
One person against those who are very well read? Gutenberg's editors are those who love to read as they are all volunteers so I don't think so.
If you'd ever read Dubigne's volumes on the Reformation you would understand that they were as Calvin and those who followed him persecuted those who didn't agree with them. The Pilgrim's did the same as they had very strict laws in which their human laws persecuted those who didn't agree with their religious ideas.
Are you aware of the logical fallacy you committed right here. If you post a point, I will try to answer it. The claims are contradictory, one is wrong. I was having fun with it, you aren't. Oh well.
How was I to know? I'm posting on a forum where everyone disagrees with my positions And then you chide me for not realizing you're joking.
The whole thread was meant to be funny as that letter fits in with the topics here. We are saved by what he did, not what we do.
Insight me
New member
“ King James the 1 st of England “
he formed an alliance with the Dutch in the Netherlands on the condition that he would have control over all English congregations in Holland.
England was at war with Spain and King James wanted religion to be used in any way possible to promote and support the costly war
As a result, Dutch authorities began to harass the pilgrims, the printing presses that the Separatists used to print pamphlets were smashed and some of the pilgrims had rocks thrown at them. In the Netherlands, the only jobs that became available to Pilgrims were in the textile industry, which was very hard, physical labor for long hours with no rest that made many of them “decrepit and weakened and most workers lost their health in their early youth”
“ King James of England “ began to influence and pressure the government in the Netherlands to suppress and persecute the Pilgrims and the governors in the Netherlands began to imprison the Puritans - the Puritans were being sent to prison in the Netherlands for preaching and teaching.
In the Netherlands, Puritans were imprisoned because King James Of England and his influence and pressure - he was trying everything he possibly could to destroy the Puritans - no matter where they went.
Quakers and Witches were already / already being persecuted and tortured and killed in England and everywhere these separatists and Pilgrims wen,t - England would send a flood of problems behind them to destroy their influence and destroy their lives.
So - the King of England - sent people to the Netherlands to destroy the Puritans
King James was a Puritan hunter, he hunted and killed and persecuted these Pilgrims like dogs and rats and made every attempt to destroy them - in the Netherlands.
This was a deliberate, calculated and planned attempt .
And he took his hunt - to America - dumping and pumping everything he had into America to continue to destroy and exterminate the Puritans.
So by the time the Puritans arrived in America - having lost everything they had, lost their family members in horrible agonizing death - with everyone and everything around them trying to tear them apart and destroy them - many Puritans are going to be defensive and even more fearful for their families lives.
Yes, they had a message stating that they do not want outsiders entering into their communities - and with all they endured - I believe they had that right.
- we do not know exactly what happened because the information that has been passed down could have been altered and manipulated and it is very possible that King James was successful and did succeed to inject and flood their environment and community with enough people to cause damage and destruction to completely destroy the ability for the original Puritans to govern their community and that those claiming to be Puritans at the time of the witch trials - were not truly Puritans - but simply pretending to be associated with the Puritan community until they had effected the community in a negative way - and then they would move on to proclaim another faith once their objective had been completed.
Also, 70 after years since the Puritans first arrived - King James would have easily destroyed any ability for true Puritans to be self-sufficient and make any decisions for any community.
there was every attempt to justify the accusing, persecuting, and executing people for witchcraft and others such as Quakers, Puritans and Separatists
These executions and crimes horrible persecutions occurred between a time period of 30 aprox years, and these 30 years of executions, and were - 40 to 70 years after the ORIGINAL Puritans aboard the Mayflower had arrived.
it is possible that the real PURITANS had no control or participation nor involvement in persecuting accused witches NOR had any direct involvement in persecuting and abusing and torturing and killing others.
Meaning - they had no control - and had completely lost all their ability to govern themselves, or to even survive outside of another greater community - without the support and control of king James - controlled by King James.
THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT YOUR SPIRITUAL FATHER KING JAMES WAS ATTEMPTING TO ACHIEVE.
Just three years after paying their debts to England for the voyage aboard the Mayflower - the English Government began an extermination crusade to suppress and destroy the Puritan's ability to prosper and maintain their livelihood.
But by the time the executions of Witches and Quakers begin to take place - this was decades after - after the first Puritans had begun to arrive - they, the Puritans were surrounded by thousands of outsiders - troublemakers and manipulators who England would and did promote, reward, encourage and advance and insert into their Puritan community - to destroy their influence, their ability to grow and prosper and be self-sufficient.
King James of England formed an alliance with the Neitherland on the condition that he would have control over all English congregations in Holland.
As a result, Neitherland authorities began to harass the pilgrims.
the Puritans were being sent to prison in the Netherlands for preaching and teaching.
King James successfully and EASILY managed to drive the Puritans out of the Netherlands - and succeeded to EASILY manipulate everything and everyone around them to make life unbearable and impossible for them to survive.
Think of what King James could do to the Puritans in America - even easier - with no one other major entity around to even notice
- I believe King James was very influential and successful in America in destroying the original Puritians.
This was King James faith and religions conviction, and exactly what he was trying to do.
I believe that that King James succeeded and accomplished his goal in destroying the reputation of the Puritans - and that he enjoyed it, as if he was an adult playing a child’s game against children.
I do not believe that Puritans had the right to persecute and terrorize others because of differences - but the original Puritans did have the right - after all they endured - to close their gates, lock their church doors and public places and to guard their families and declare separation to all outsiders trying to destroy their faith and to demand to be left alone.
And that under their conditions - seeing a flood of newcomers entering into their community to begin destroying and manipulating their lives - many Putitians would react negatively.
But these Puritans make a clear declaration requesting clearly and openly requesting outsiders again, again and again - repeatedly - requesting = please stay away with your manipulation and attempts to destroy and influnce our shattered and frayed lives.
King James drove the Puritans out of the Netherlands in just around 10 years - he had nearly 50 years in an open and free range - to destroy everything any good and decent and Godly concerning any influence that good Puritans would have in America
I don't think the good and honourable Puritans were allowed to promote and run the show. Only the Puritans who promoted King James and his persecution agenda.
he formed an alliance with the Dutch in the Netherlands on the condition that he would have control over all English congregations in Holland.
England was at war with Spain and King James wanted religion to be used in any way possible to promote and support the costly war
As a result, Dutch authorities began to harass the pilgrims, the printing presses that the Separatists used to print pamphlets were smashed and some of the pilgrims had rocks thrown at them. In the Netherlands, the only jobs that became available to Pilgrims were in the textile industry, which was very hard, physical labor for long hours with no rest that made many of them “decrepit and weakened and most workers lost their health in their early youth”
“ King James of England “ began to influence and pressure the government in the Netherlands to suppress and persecute the Pilgrims and the governors in the Netherlands began to imprison the Puritans - the Puritans were being sent to prison in the Netherlands for preaching and teaching.
In the Netherlands, Puritans were imprisoned because King James Of England and his influence and pressure - he was trying everything he possibly could to destroy the Puritans - no matter where they went.
Quakers and Witches were already / already being persecuted and tortured and killed in England and everywhere these separatists and Pilgrims wen,t - England would send a flood of problems behind them to destroy their influence and destroy their lives.
So - the King of England - sent people to the Netherlands to destroy the Puritans
King James was a Puritan hunter, he hunted and killed and persecuted these Pilgrims like dogs and rats and made every attempt to destroy them - in the Netherlands.
This was a deliberate, calculated and planned attempt .
And he took his hunt - to America - dumping and pumping everything he had into America to continue to destroy and exterminate the Puritans.
So by the time the Puritans arrived in America - having lost everything they had, lost their family members in horrible agonizing death - with everyone and everything around them trying to tear them apart and destroy them - many Puritans are going to be defensive and even more fearful for their families lives.
Yes, they had a message stating that they do not want outsiders entering into their communities - and with all they endured - I believe they had that right.
- we do not know exactly what happened because the information that has been passed down could have been altered and manipulated and it is very possible that King James was successful and did succeed to inject and flood their environment and community with enough people to cause damage and destruction to completely destroy the ability for the original Puritans to govern their community and that those claiming to be Puritans at the time of the witch trials - were not truly Puritans - but simply pretending to be associated with the Puritan community until they had effected the community in a negative way - and then they would move on to proclaim another faith once their objective had been completed.
Also, 70 after years since the Puritans first arrived - King James would have easily destroyed any ability for true Puritans to be self-sufficient and make any decisions for any community.
there was every attempt to justify the accusing, persecuting, and executing people for witchcraft and others such as Quakers, Puritans and Separatists
These executions and crimes horrible persecutions occurred between a time period of 30 aprox years, and these 30 years of executions, and were - 40 to 70 years after the ORIGINAL Puritans aboard the Mayflower had arrived.
it is possible that the real PURITANS had no control or participation nor involvement in persecuting accused witches NOR had any direct involvement in persecuting and abusing and torturing and killing others.
Meaning - they had no control - and had completely lost all their ability to govern themselves, or to even survive outside of another greater community - without the support and control of king James - controlled by King James.
THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT YOUR SPIRITUAL FATHER KING JAMES WAS ATTEMPTING TO ACHIEVE.
Just three years after paying their debts to England for the voyage aboard the Mayflower - the English Government began an extermination crusade to suppress and destroy the Puritan's ability to prosper and maintain their livelihood.
But by the time the executions of Witches and Quakers begin to take place - this was decades after - after the first Puritans had begun to arrive - they, the Puritans were surrounded by thousands of outsiders - troublemakers and manipulators who England would and did promote, reward, encourage and advance and insert into their Puritan community - to destroy their influence, their ability to grow and prosper and be self-sufficient.
King James of England formed an alliance with the Neitherland on the condition that he would have control over all English congregations in Holland.
As a result, Neitherland authorities began to harass the pilgrims.
the Puritans were being sent to prison in the Netherlands for preaching and teaching.
King James successfully and EASILY managed to drive the Puritans out of the Netherlands - and succeeded to EASILY manipulate everything and everyone around them to make life unbearable and impossible for them to survive.
Think of what King James could do to the Puritans in America - even easier - with no one other major entity around to even notice
- I believe King James was very influential and successful in America in destroying the original Puritians.
This was King James faith and religions conviction, and exactly what he was trying to do.
I believe that that King James succeeded and accomplished his goal in destroying the reputation of the Puritans - and that he enjoyed it, as if he was an adult playing a child’s game against children.
I do not believe that Puritans had the right to persecute and terrorize others because of differences - but the original Puritans did have the right - after all they endured - to close their gates, lock their church doors and public places and to guard their families and declare separation to all outsiders trying to destroy their faith and to demand to be left alone.
And that under their conditions - seeing a flood of newcomers entering into their community to begin destroying and manipulating their lives - many Putitians would react negatively.
But these Puritans make a clear declaration requesting clearly and openly requesting outsiders again, again and again - repeatedly - requesting = please stay away with your manipulation and attempts to destroy and influnce our shattered and frayed lives.
King James drove the Puritans out of the Netherlands in just around 10 years - he had nearly 50 years in an open and free range - to destroy everything any good and decent and Godly concerning any influence that good Puritans would have in America
I don't think the good and honourable Puritans were allowed to promote and run the show. Only the Puritans who promoted King James and his persecution agenda.
Insight me
New member
There were Between 50,000 and 120,000 British convicts shipped into the colonies this is not including the mentally insane and the poor and elderly and the people England, Spain and France had been bringing to America to seize control and power – over everything.
Also, there was French and Spain that were shipping in individuals to influence and seize control of the colonies – all of this – combined with the war that Europe was stirring up with the Native American Indians
Would it be impossible – 70 years after the ORIGINAL Puritans arrived for this very small and minority community to have any control of anything around them – The Original Puritans were forced to depend upon the greater community – and were a very, very tiny minority. / ?
Also, there was French and Spain that were shipping in individuals to influence and seize control of the colonies – all of this – combined with the war that Europe was stirring up with the Native American Indians
Would it be impossible – 70 years after the ORIGINAL Puritans arrived for this very small and minority community to have any control of anything around them – The Original Puritans were forced to depend upon the greater community – and were a very, very tiny minority. / ?
Unfortunately, while they say words that sound like they'd be coming from a dispensationalist, they definitely were not. They were Calvinists. They weren't quite the hard core, double-predestination type, but still, they were no doubt Calvinists.The Pilgrims were MAD Paul people, no wonder they are hated so much.
It had been less than a hundred years since Calvin wrote 'Institutes' and the meaning of nearly every important term in the whole Christian lexicon had been redefined to fit within Calvinist ideology and thus the impression this writing gave you. They'd be about the equivalent today of the Reformed Baptists in terms of theology, the biggest difference having to do with their doctrines about baptism.
The Pilgrims where hated because they rejected the Church of England, which they rightly saw as too Catholic. The Puritans wanted to purify the Church from within, but the Separatist Pilgrims believed it was beyond reform and left it entirely. To reject the Church of England wasn't just a religious rebellion, it was seen as rebellion against the Crown. Not just heresy, but treason. And so, yeah, they pretty much made everyone angry.
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This post is a mess of half-truths and historical confusion, to say the least!
Insight me said:
Exaggerated. The accurate number is around 50,000–60,000 before 1776.
Insight me said:
There’s no documented program of shipping the mentally ill or elderly en masse. There were poor people who emigrated, but lumping them in as if they were dumped like cargo is historically false.
Insight me said:
Flatly false. England, Spain, and France had separate colonial territories. France and Spain weren’t infiltrating English colonies with settlers to "seize power.” That’s paranoid nonsense.
Insight me said:
Ungrammatical and false. Should be “France and Spain,” and again, this did not happen within English colonies. They fought colonial wars against each other, not by sneaking settlers into rival areas.
Insight me said:
Simplistic and vague. Europeans did use Native alliances in their conflicts, but the idea that "Europe" as a whole was “stirring up” war is reductionist, anti-white propaganda.
Insight me said:
Exaggerated and inaccurate. The Puritans had deep influence in New England well past 70 years. They may have lost some dominance, but not to the point of irrelevance.
In short the entire post is based on historical fiction and adds exactly nothing of value to the discussion.
7djengo7
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Maybe he means ye olde, trans-Atlantic, joint-stock Venture, Messrs. French & Spain, Shippers.