An Alternative to Arminianism and Calvinism

[Samie]

The 5 Pillars of the Gospel – a better alternative to Arminianism and Calvinism.

1. Spiritual Empowerment 2. Unconditional Election of Adam’s Race 3. Perfect & Complete Redemption 4. Guidance of the Holy Spirit 5. Repentance & Overcoming

1. Spiritual Empowerment . Contingent upon the life, death and resurrection of Christ, all of Adam's race came to existence into this world spiritually alive, that is, born with the capability to do spiritual acts, given the opportunity to do so. Each one is given faith, for without faith it is impossible to please God.

2. Unconditional Election of Adam’s Race. By God’s grace given us in Christ before time began, God chose all of Adam’s race and predestined them for adoption as children by Jesus Christ. God foreknew that man will fall into sin, and He implemented the plan of redemption right after man first fell into sin: Instead of Adam dying, an animal died that day Adam sinned, foreshadowing the death on the cross of the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world.

3. Perfect & Complete Redemption. On the cross, God fashioned all of Adam’s race into the body of His Son, creating a new man – Christ the Head, Adam’s race the Body. When the Head died, the Body died with Him, and Adam’s race was forgiven from all sins and reconciled to God. When the Head resurrected, the Body was made alive together with Him, born again into a living hope of life eternal. Attached to the Head, they all are heaven-bound UNLESS detached from the Body by Christ Himself.

4. Guidance of the Holy Spirit. Throughout the lifetime of an individual, the Holy Spirit guides and coaches him, being part of the body, to live in accordance with the will of the Head. Attached to the Head Who is his life and strength, he has His Power to do what He wants Him to do. A person is free to decide whether to follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit or not. God through Christ will decide who followed the guidance of the Holy Spirit. They are the ones who in their lifetime persevered to overcome evil with good.

5. Repentance & Overcoming. The call to repent is a call to overcome evil with good. Only overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life where names of all were written from the foundation of the world. When Christ comes again to reward every man according to what each has done, those whose names remained written in the book of life will inherit life eternal; all others will be made to suffer the wrath of God, and finally, thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[Clete]

It doesn't work that way, Samie.

You cannot hold to all the same premises and reject all of the rational conclusions that follow from them.

Arminius and Calvin were both wrong but they weren't wrong because they were stupid and hadn't thought through what they were saying. If the presuppositions of Calvinism are true then so is Calvinism, or at least most of it. And the same goes for Arminianism; if the presuppositions upon which the system is built are true then the system itself is true.

In other words, it isn't Calvin's logic that is flawed (well actually it is in areas but generally speaking...) it is his premises that are false and the same goes for Arminius.

For example, God DOES NOT exist outside of time. There is no such thing as "before time". It's a contradiction to even say it. Time is not a place, its an idea. So long as there are events that occur and that can be discussed relative to other events (i.e. sequence and duration) then time "exists". Time is the convention of language we use to convey information concerning the sequence and duration of events relative to other events. That's all it is. It cannot be existed "outside of" or "before".

This single false premise is responsible for a great deal of Calvinistic error, including Armininism, but the real error comes from their most basic presupposition. The notion that God is immutable. The absolute unchangeable God of Calvin and Arminius is the single premise upon nearly every error you can think of in either system (and indeed in most of Christianity) is ultimately based, including the notion that God exists outside of time. This primary premise can be proven false with a single bible verse...

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,...​

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Samie]

It doesn't work that way, Samie.

You cannot hold to all the same premises and reject all of the rational conclusions that follow from them.

. . .

Can you show me please, Clete? What in the OP, if any, runs counter to what Scriptures say?

 

[Clete]

Can you show me please, Clete? What in the OP, if any, runs counter to what Scriptures say?

Well there's a lot but just to give a couple of examples..

• All of point 1 is false.
• By God’s grace given us in Christ before time began.
• God chose all of Adam’s race and predestined them for adoption as children by Jesus Christ.
• God foreknew that man will fall into sin,...
• All of points 3, 4 & 5

And, by the way, you are the one making claims here. It isn't my job to debunk your claims, it is yours to establish them. My point was merely that you seem to want to preserve Calvin's theology proper (his theology of God) and to reject the rest of his system which is not going to work. You cannot hold to a premise and discard that which follows logically from it.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Samie]

Well there's a lot but just to give a couple of examples..

• All of point 1 is false.
• By God’s grace given us in Christ before time began.
• God chose all of Adam’s race and predestined them for adoption as children by Jesus Christ.
• God foreknew that man will fall into sin,...
• All of points 3, 4 & 5

And, by the way, you are the one making claims here. It isn't my job to debunk your claims, it is yours to establish them. My point was merely that you seem to want to preserve Calvin's theology proper (his theology of God) and to reject the rest of his system which is not going to work. You cannot hold to a premise and discard that which follows logically from it.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Thanks, Clete.

On Point 1, accountability entails empowerment for the one to be held accountable (Luke 12:48). Thus for all to become accountable, all need to be empowered. And God did this through Christ when we all were made alive TOGETHER with Him at His resurrection (Col 2:13; Eph 2:4-6).

On point 2, there is no partiality with God (Acts 10:34; Rom 2:11; Eph 6:9). To elect some and not all of Adam's race is playing favorites. In Adam we die; in Christ we live (Rom 5:18).

On point 3. The atonement done on the cross was perfect and complete. Having been fashioned into the body of Christ on the cross, we died with Him (Ep 2:11-19; 2 Cor 5:14, 15; Heb 2:9). All our sins were forgiven (Col 2:13; Rev 1:5), and we all were reconciled to God by the death of His Son (Rom 5:10). And when He resurrected, we were made alive together with Him. Sins we currently commit, having been forgiven on the cross, are not counted against us (2 Cor 5:18, 19). In fact, God remembers our sins NO MORE (Heb 10:16, 17). This is God's way of continually justifying us through Christ Who was raised for our justification (Rom 4:25).

On point 4. The Holy Spirit guides us, being children of God (Rom 8:14-16) by adoption through Jesus Christ as God planned before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:3-5). Attached to Christ as His Body, we have His power (Phil 4:13) to overcome evil with good. We may decide to overcome evil or be overcome by it.

On point 5. God calls all to repentance (2 Pet 3:9), that is, to overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21). Jesus said He will not blot out names of overcomers from the Book of Life (Rev 3:5). Therefore, non-overcomers will be blotted out (Exo 32:33). The good news is, there is hope while alive, because it is only after one dies that judgment is rendered (Heb 9:27) whether to blot one's name or not from the book of life.

Can you show me how I could have erred in my use of Scriptures, Clete?

 

[Clete]

Thanks, Clete.

On Point 1, accountability entails empowerment for the one to be held accountable (Luke 12:48). Thus for all to become accountable, all need to be empowered. And God did this through Christ when we all were made alive TOGETHER with Him at His resurrection (Col 2:13; Eph 2:4-6).

Based on several false premises....

Not every human being is made alive together with Christ, only believers are.

Another false premise here is the presumed need for an empowerment that we don't already have. In short, you've bought the total depravity of Calvinism. Total depravity is not biblical and thus there is no need for a biblical remedy for it. Just reject it.

On point 2, there is no partiality with God (Acts 10:34; Rom 2:11; Eph 6:9). To elect some and not all of Adam's race is playing favorites. In Adam we die; in Christ we live (Rom 5:18).

This buys into, not only the Calvinist understanding of what "elect" means but actually buys into "Unconditional Election" which is flatly irrational and certainly unbiblical and totally false.

On point 3. The atonement done on the cross was perfect and complete. Having been fashioned into the body of Christ on the cross, we died with Him (Ep 2:11-19; 2 Cor 5:14, 15; Heb 2:9). All our sins were forgiven (Col 2:13; Rev 1:5), and we all were reconciled to God by the death of His Son (Rom 5:10). And when He resurrected, we were made alive together with Him. Sins we currently commit, having been forgiven on the cross, are not counted against us (2 Cor 5:18, 19). In fact, God remembers our sins NO MORE (Heb 10:16, 17). This is God's way of continually justifying us through Christ Who was raised for our justification (Rom 4:25).

This is nearly all based on Calvinistic soteriology! Why don't you just call yourself a Calvinist and be done with it?

Only believers are identified in Christ and only AFTER they believe. I did not exist 2000 years ago to be crucified with Christ. His death is applied to me by God when I believe. His death is credited to my account WHEN I believe, not before and certainly not 2000 years before I ever existed. And if Christ death was applied to the whole race then for God to send anyone to Hell would be unjust. The death penalty can only be justly applied once.

On point 4. The Holy Spirit guides us, being children of God (Rom 8:14-16) by adoption through Jesus Christ as God planned before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:3-5). Attached to Christ as His Body, we have His power (Phil 4:13) to overcome evil with good. We may decide to overcome evil or be overcome by it.

Now here comes Calvin's predestination. I don't know why you don't just drop the pretense.

On point 5. God calls all to repentance (2 Pet 3:9), that is, to overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21). Jesus said He will not blot out names of overcomers from the Book of Life (Rev 3:5). Therefore, non-overcomers will be blotted out (Exo 32:33). The good news is, there is hope while alive, because it is only after one dies that judgment is rendered (Heb 9:27) whether to blot one's name or not from the book of life.

Quasi-Universalism nonsense.

Can you show me how I could have erred in my use of Scriptures, Clete?

You learned none of this from scripture! You learned this from your Augustinian teachers. Much of what you said has never been taught at all in Christianity but most of it is just a slight twist on things introduced into Christianity by Augustine. There's not a dime's worth of difference between your doctrine and that of Calvin. His errors are yours and they come primarily from the belief in total depravity and in the notion that God cannot change in any way whatsoever.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Samie]

Hi Clete;

Thank you.

But your rebutall, it seems, comes not from what Scriptures say, but from what you want them to say. I couldn't take your words which are clearly against Scriptures. For example, you said:

Only believers are identified in Christ and only AFTER they believe.

This is diametrically opposite to what Christ Himself said that while apart or separate from Him, one can do NOTHING (John 15:5), because you are indirectly saying that while separate from Christ one can do SOMETHING - he can believe so he can be attached to Christ.

Separate from Christ Who is our life (Col 3:4), one is spiritually dead. And as the physically dead can NOT do any physical act, so the spiritually dead can NOT do any spiritual act like believing. But you are indirectly saying that while spiritually dead, one can do the spiritual act of believing. For you, the Ethiopian can change his skin, and the leopard its spots (Jer 13:23).

Hope you now can see how unscriptural your position is.

But your position is the brand of gospel popularly preached to the world! And you wonder why Christ hasn't yet come? see Matt 24:14.

 

[Clete]

Hi Clete;

Thank you.

But your rebutall, it seems, comes not from what Scriptures say, but from what you want them to say. I couldn't take your words which are clearly against Scriptures. For example, you said:
This is diametrically opposite to what Christ Himself said that while apart or separate from Him, one can do NOTHING (John 15:5), because you are indirectly saying that while separate from Christ one can do SOMETHING - he can believe so he can be attached to Christ.

You will not succeed in baiting me into a proof-texting context. It is utterly fruitless. The issue here has less to do with scripture than it has to do with paradigms.

What you've presented here is the Calvinist paradigm. This is simple Total Depravity, which IS NOT based (i.e. derived from) scripture but rather from Greek philosophy.

Separate from Christ Who is our life (Col 3:4), one is spiritually dead. And as the physically dead can NOT do any physical act, so the spiritually dead can NOT do any spiritual act like believing. But you are indirectly saying that while spiritually dead, one can do the spiritual act of believing. For you, the Ethiopian can change his skin, and the leopard its spots (Jer 13:23).

Will you now admit that you are a Calvinist? What did it take, two posts, for me to figure out that you were a closeted Calvinist?

Hope you now can see how unscriptural your position is.

:rotfl:

But your position is the brand of gospel popularly preached to the world! And you wonder why Christ hasn't yet come? see Matt 24:14.

This sort of comment often lands people on my ignore list. If you want to debate anything with me, you're not aloud to be a lunatic.

You don't know anything about me or what I believe! If you think what I preach is main stream, you're in for a shock.


Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Samie]

You will not succeed in baiting me into a proof-texting context. It is utterly fruitless. The issue here has less to do with scripture than it has to do with paradigms.

Is this your way of admitting you can present NO scriptures for rebutting my position, brother?

What you've presented here is the Calvinist paradigm. This is simple Total Depravity, which IS NOT based (i.e. derived from) scripture but rather from Greek philosophy.

So, for you, the Ethiopian can change his skin and the leopard its spots?

Will you now admit that you are a Calvinist? What did it take, two posts, for me to figure out that you were a closeted Calvinist?


:rotfl:

Me, a Calvinist, according to your evaluation? Either you don't know Calvinism or you simply refuse to understand my position. Do Calvinists believe in blotting out of names from the book of life? I do.

This sort of comment often lands people on my ignore list. If you want to debate anything with me, you're not aloud to be a lunatic.

So, for you, people who present you with Scriptures that run counter to your theology are lunatic and headed to your ignore list?

You don't know anything about me or what I believe! If you think what I preach is main stream, you're in for a shock.

You are correct, because even now I'm really shocked why your rebuttal is devoid of Scriptures.

 

[Clete]

Is this your way of admitting you can present NO scriptures for rebutting my position, brother?

Look, I've been debating Calvinists for twenty years, maybe longer. Proof texting is a waste of time. All that happens is, instead of debating Calvinism (i.e. its foundational principles) you end up debating about what whether this or that verse means what it says or whether its a figure of speech or whatever. I'm not interested in doing that. It's boring and it has no chance of changing anyone's mind.

So, for you, the Ethiopian can change his skin and the leopard its spots?

I reject the premise. The leopard's spots are what they are, they just aren't what you and Calvin suggest.

Me, a Calvinist, according to your evaluation? Either you don't know Calvinism or you simply refuse to understand my position. Do Calvinists believe in blotting out of names from the book of life? I do.

Oh you're a Calvinist alright. Maybe not one of the regular flavor but guacamole is guacamole whether it has onions in it or not.

Would it be more accurate to call you Calvinistic? Probably. But I don't care about being so precise. You believe that God has predestined everything and that God is immutable. At the very least that makes your an Augustinian and Calvinism is really nothing at all other than reformed Augustinian theology and is entire false for the same reasons.

So, for you, people who present you with Scriptures that run counter to your theology are lunatic and headed to your ignore list?

No, but those who suggest that Christ hasn't come because I'm preaching the wrong gospel, or anything similar to that, are.

Here's the deal. There is NOTHING you say, no argument you can make in support of anything that smells of Calvinism that I have seen, heard or read a thousand times before. If you want to test your Calvinistic metal, you're not likely to find anyone better than me to do it with. Not that such people don't exist but merely that they aren't actively posting on debate forums. But the thing you have to know is that I despise Calvin, Calvinism, Calvinist and anyone who understand what they teach and accept it as truth. Calvinism (Augustinian doctrine) is blasphemy of the highest order and I do not pull punches. If you say something idiotic, I will call you an idiot. If you say something blasphemous, you'll get it from me with both barrels. If you can't stand the heat, stay out of this kitchen.

If, on the other hand, you've got thick skin and are willing to debate in a manner that is intellectually honest and productive (i.e. make real arguments rather than mere claims and avoid proof-texting that doesn't prove anything) then we'll have some fun. It's up to you.

You are correct, because even now I'm really shocked why your rebuttal is devoid of Scriptures.

It's devoid of scriptures because you wouldn't be any more convinced by my proof texts than I am by yours! It is a waste of time and I will not debate based on proof texts.
That is not to say that I won't use passages of scripture help make and/or support an argument or that I have a problem with you doing so. The point is simply that just because you can quote a verse or two of scripture doesn't mean you've even made an argument never mind proven your position. Every crack pop cult leader that has ever existed could sit and quote the bible at you all day long. David Koresh spent hours at a time preaching out of the bible. Whole books have been written giving supposedly biblical arguments both in favor of and in rebuttal to not only Calvinism but every other Christian sect. It isn't one's reading of the bible that is the problem, it is the glasses you wear when reading it. If you have Calvinist colored glasses on, you'll see Calvinism everywhere and will utterly blind to anything else. What I', interested in debating is the glasses, not what you see when you have them on.

Here is the core of my argument against Calvinism or any flavor of it..

If Calvinism is true then love is impossible and God is unjust. It is God's quality that is the basis of my argument. It is God's quantity that will be yours. You, whether you realize it or not, place emphasis on how big God is (omnipresence), how much God knows (omniscience), how much power God has (omnipotence) as well as attributes such as immutability and impassibility. I, on the other hand, put the emphasis on God's love, justice, kindness, mercy, personality, relationships, etc. And don't make the error of claiming you consider all of those things of equal importance, you don't. I have no doubt that you think you do but you don't. You are forced to choose and you have chosen and your choice colors everything you read in your bible and every thought you have about all things theological. It all about paradigms. If you engage the debate, you'll see (hopefully).

Resting in Him,
Clete

p.s. No time to proof read this one. Please excuse any typos.

 

[Samie]

Hi Clete,

I have read but, to save space, won't quote your whole post.

I am quite convinced that you prefer presenting your own thinking to defend your belief instead of using the Bible. What are you AFRAID of in using Scriptures, brother?

For starters, I already have mentioned in an earlier post where I quoted you saying "Only believers are identified in Christ and only AFTER they believe. ".

I responded that your statement is AGAINST the words of Jesus Himself. He said:

NAS John 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing.

You don't want to quote verses and instead bring your own philosophy that is diametrically opposite to the words of the Master Teacher. You teach that while yet apart from Christ, people can do SOMETHING - they can believe.

That God attached us to His Son first and foremost reveals God's love. He knows that apart from His Son Who is our life (Col 3:4), people can do NOTHING, being yet spiritually dead. So He sent His Son to give life to the world (John 6:33). And this was planned BEFORE the beginning of time, before the world began (2 Tim 1:8-10).

Let's first tackle this issue to its logical end. I won't mind you NOT USING Scriptures to defend your position. So don't mind me USING Scriptures in defending mine.

 

[Clete]

Hi Clete,

I have read but, to save space, won't quote your whole post.

I am quite convinced that you prefer presenting your own thinking to defend your belief instead of using the Bible. What are you AFRAID of in using Scriptures, brother?

I don't care what you think you're convinced about and if you don't drop it, I'll simply ignore you.

For starters, I already have mentioned in an earlier post where I quoted you saying "Only believers are identified in Christ and only AFTER they believe. ".

I responded that your statement is AGAINST the words of Jesus Himself. He said:

NAS John 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing.

You don't want to quote verses and instead bring your own philosophy that is diametrically opposite to the words of the Master Teacher. You teach that while yet apart from Christ, people can do SOMETHING - they can believe.

Nothing you say will goad me into getting into a proof texting contest with you - period. My doctrine does not contradict one syllable of what Jesus said, you are reading your doctrine into the text. A point I could argue till the cows come home and you won't accept it. No matter what I quote or how many times I quote it.

That God attached us to His Son first and foremost reveals God's love. He knows that apart from His Son Who is our life (Col 3:4), people can do NOTHING, being yet spiritually dead. So He sent His Son to give life to the world (John 6:33). And this was planned BEFORE the beginning of time, before the world began (2 Tim 1:8-10).

This is simply Calvin's doctrine of total depravity which IS NOT based in scripture - period! And there is no such thing as "before the beginning of time".

You're just reciting typical Calvinism. It's nothing that hasn't be rebuttal a million times on this website alone by me and dozens of others. You are reading your doctrine into the text, Samie! The bible does not teach this stupidity. How can there be anything BEFORE time? It's idiotic!

Let's first tackle this issue to its logical end. I won't mind you NOT USING Scriptures to defend your position. So don't mind me USING Scriptures in defending mine.

I've already said that I don't mind the use of scripture (scripture isn't God so let's not use the capital 'S') to support AN ARGUMENT. It's when you use scripture as the argument that what you are doing become proof-texting. Proof-texting is a child's game. If it were a valid form of argument then David Koresh was the Messiah. There are people alive still to this day that believe exactly that and they can proof-text you to death in defense of it.

Biblical arguments only work and are only valid once a person's theological paradigm is understood and has been established. In other words, the biblical arguments you make and that you've heard made in support of your doctrine are acceptable to you because you share the same theological paradigm with whomever made the biblical arguments. If I, on the other hand, presented you with a list of bible verses that "prove" that God does not know the future, you'd reject the argument no matter how many verses I quoted! Your paradigm is like a guard that won't let anything to far outside the box enter into that which can be accepted as reasonable.

So, I've said it a couple of times already and I'll say it again. Our disagreement is not a biblical issue, it is an issue about foundational presuppositions that are brought to our respective reading of scripture. The real question is which of our foundations can be both biblically and rationally defended and which cannot. And as I pointed out in my previous post, the particular presuppositions in question here have to do with our 'theology proper', that is our theology of who God is. Your doctrine, whether you're aware of it or not, is founded upon the quantitative attributes of God (i.e. how much He knows, how much power He has, etc) as well as the notion that God cannot change in any way whatsoever. That IS the foundation upon which you stand. I, on the other hand, stand on God's qualitative attributes (i.e. God is relational, loving, kind, just, merciful, etc.).

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Samie]

Thanks for the well-thought out yet unscriptural response.

Sorry but not to disappoint you, I simply base my position upon what the Bible plainly says. And you don't. You just said your words do not contradict what Jesus said but they do. And the wonderful thing about it is you don't care explaining, because you can't?

Jesus: "Apart from Me, you can co NOTHING."
Clete: Apart from Christ, people can do SOMETHING - they can believe.

Now explain why you think your statement does not contradict Jesus' statement. That is, if you can.

 

[Samie]

Thanks for the well-thought out yet unscriptural response.

Sorry but not to disappoint you, I simply base my position upon what the Bible plainly says. And you don't. You just said your words do not contradict what Jesus said but they do. And the wonderful thing about it is you don't care explaining, because you can't?

Jesus: "Apart from Me, you can co NOTHING."
Clete: Apart from Christ, people can do SOMETHING - they can believe.

Now explain why you think your statement does not contradict Jesus' statement. That is, if you can.

 

[Clete]

Thanks for the well-thought out yet unscriptural response.

You're welcome!

You won't shame me into a proof-texting contest either.

Sorry but not to disappoint you, I simply base my position upon what the Bible plainly says.

The only people who feel it necessary to say this are those who suspect it might not be true.

If it were true, you'd have never said a word about "before time began". You, like most everyone else, believe what you've been taught to believe.

And you don't. You just said your words do not contradict what Jesus said but they do.

No, they do not. They contradict your doctrine but Jesus was not talking about what you are and He commonly used figures of speech.

And the wonderful thing about it is you don't care explaining, because you can't?

Accuse me of what you like. I WILL NOT get into a contest to see who can post the most proof texts! I'm offering to explode your entire theological world view and you want me to pop a fire work. It isn't going to happen.

Jesus: "Apart from Me, you can co NOTHING."

Evil people do things all the time, Samie! They do good things, bad things, indifferent things - all sorts of things all day long, every single day. Jesus was NOT saying what your doctrine teaches you He was saying! You are reading your doctrine into the text and this is precisely why you'll not even consider what I've said here as possibly true and why proof texting is a complete and utterly foolish waste of time and why I will not do it no matter how many times you beg or prod or try to steer me into it.

Once again, that doesn't mean I don't use scripture to make an argument. There is a time and a place for it but we are not there yet! Not even close! Trust me! I'm not being stubborn, I've been down that road so many times I've lost count years ago. It's a fruitless waste of time.

Clete: Apart from Christ, people can do SOMETHING - they can believe.

Now explain why you think your statement does not contradict Jesus' statement. That is, if you can.

Hypebole

As I said, evil people, Hindus, Jews, Muslims, Taoists, Pharisees, Sadducees, Samaritans, Nazarenes and Christians do good things all the time.

Your doctrine of total depravity is NOT based in scripture, Samie. It didn't exist in the church before Augustine and he based it on his doctrine of original sin, which is also not biblical.

You do not believe in the religion you think you believe in. You've been tricked.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Samie]

Thanks for the verbosity in your response, Clete.

But for me, you failed in your explanation. The fact that people can do bad things is not because they are not attached to Christ. They are. That's why they will be held accountable. Attached to Christ, they have His power to overcome evil. But instead they let evil overcome them. Their names will be blotted out from the book of life.

You did not stop with the evil deeds people do. People also do good things, even those people you call evil people. Isn't feeding one's family a good deed? And no good deed people do are done apart from Christ, for He EXPLICITLY said that apart from Him we can do NOTHING. And that's NOT a hyperbole. Tell me one REALLY, REALLY BAD human who has not done any single good deed, is there?

For those who choose to believe, they have overcome the evil of disbelief and unbelief. The name of the game is overcoming, Clete. And only overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life (Rev 3:5).

Your explanation did not outdo the reality that your statement contradicted Christ's. You may try again.

 

[TulipBee]

The 5 Pillars of the Gospel – a better alternative to Arminianism and Calvinism.

1.Spiritual Empowerment 2.Unconditional Election of Adam’s Race 3.Perfect & Complete Redemption 4.Guidance of the Holy Spirit 5.Repentance & Overcoming

1. Spiritual Empowerment . Contingent upon the life, death and resurrection of Christ, all of Adam's race came to existence into this world spiritually alive, that is, born with the capability to do spiritual acts, given the opportunity to do so. Each one is given faith, for without faith it is impossible to please God.

2. Unconditional Election of Adam’s Race. By God’s grace given us in Christ before time began, God chose all of Adam’s race and predestined them for adoption as children by Jesus Christ. God foreknew that man will fall into sin, and He implemented the plan of redemption right after man first fell into sin: Instead of Adam dying, an animal died that day Adam sinned, foreshadowing the death on the cross of the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world.

3. Perfect & Complete Redemption. On the cross, God fashioned all of Adam’s race into the body of His Son, creating a new man – Christ the Head, Adam’s race the Body. When the Head died, the Body died with Him, and Adam’s race was forgiven from all sins and reconciled to God. When the Head resurrected, the Body was made alive together with Him, born again into a living hope of life eternal. Attached to the Head, they all are heaven-bound UNLESS detached from the Body by Christ Himself.

4. Guidance of the Holy Spirit. Throughout the lifetime of an individual, the Holy Spirit guides and coaches him, being part of the body, to live in accordance with the will of the Head. Attached to the Head Who is his life and strength, he has His Power to do what He wants Him to do. A person is free to decide whether to follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit or not. God through Christ will decide who followed the guidance of the Holy Spirit. They are the ones who in their lifetime persevered to overcome evil with good.

5. Repentance & Overcoming. The call to repent is a call to overcome evil with good. Only overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life where names of all were written from the foundation of the world. When Christ comes again to reward every man according to what each has done, those whose names remained written in the book of life will inherit life eternal; all others will be made to suffer the wrath of God, and finally, thrown into the lake of fire.

There are no alternatives. You either save yourself or God saves you.

 

[Samie]

There are no alternatives. You either save yourself or God saves you.

This thread is "Alternative to Arminianism & Calvinism" NOT "Alternative to God's Saving Grace". Sorry but you've wandered to the wrong schoolroom. Kindergartens are down the hallway.

 

[TulipBee]

This thread is "Alternative to Arminianism & Calvinism" NOT "Alternative to God's Saving Grace". Sorry but you've wandered to the wrong schoolroom. Kindergartens are down the hallway.

Smart mouthing makes you look bad

 

[Clete]

Thanks for the verbosity in your response, Clete.

But for me, you failed in your explanation. The fact that people can do bad things is not because they are not attached to Christ. They are. That's why they will be held accountable. Attached to Christ, they have His power to overcome evil. But instead they let evil overcome them. Their names will be blotted out from the book of life.

You did not stop with the evil deeds people do. People also do good things, even those people you call evil people. Isn't feeding one's family a good deed? And no good deed people do are done apart from Christ, for He EXPLICITLY said that apart from Him we can do NOTHING. And that's NOT a hyperbole. Tell me one REALLY, REALLY BAD human who has not done any single good deed, is there?

For those who choose to believe, they have overcome the evil of disbelief and unbelief. The name of the game is overcoming, Clete. And only overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life (Rev 3:5).

Your explanation did not outdo the reality that your statement contradicted Christ's. You may try again.

You're the one who needs to try again. I didn't say people do bad things, I said that they do good things.

And you are on the cutting edge of finding yourself on my ignore list. The next time you say something condescending to me without having even read my post, that's we're you'll be.

And finally, as I predicted, there is NOTHING I or ANYONE could ever say to make you think anything other than what you think! There is NOTHING WHATSOEVER that I can say that will move you one inch off believing that I've contradicted Jesus. Facts be damned! God Himself could not convince you with words.

If I've contradicted what Jesus was actually teaching (which I haven't) then Jesus is a liar and the whole of Christianity is false. That's how big a deal this is, Samie. But I will spent not one more second trying to talk you away from your proof texts. It is a waste of time. If that's all your interested in doing just say so now and I'll leave you to your grade school games.

Resting in Him,
Clete