An Advocation of Government

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drbrumley

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While I rarely weigh in on political matters (the reason being in what follows given the contention that often arises), some thoughts that come to mind, in no particular order...

Some background:
Spoiler

From the Westminster Confession of Faith, chapter 23:

I. God, the supreme Lord and King of all the world, hath ordained civil magistrates, to be, under him, over the people, for his own glory, and the public good: and, to this end, hath armed them with the power of the sword, for the defense and encouragement of them that are good, and for the punishment of evildoers. (Rom. 13:1-4, 1 Pet. 2:13-14)

II. It is lawful for Christians to accept and execute the office of a magistrate, when called thereunto: (Prov. 8:15-16, Rom. 13:1-2, 4) in the managing whereof, as they ought especially to maintain piety, justice, and peace, according to the wholesome laws of each commonwealth; (Ps. 2:10-12, 1 Tim. 2:2, Ps. 82:3-4, 2 Sam. 23:3, 1 Pet. 2:13) so, for that end, they may lawfully, now under the new testament, wage war, upon just and necessary occasion. (Luke 3:14, Rom. 13:4, Matt. 8:9-10, Acts 10:1-2, Rev. 17:14, 16)

The establishment principle (to be defined later below), as described in the original WCF 23 at section III:

III. The civil magistrate may not assume to himself the administration of the word and sacraments, or the power of the keys of the kingdom of heaven (2 Chron. 26:18 with Matthew 18:17 and Mathew 16:19; 1 Cor. 12:28,29; Eph. 4:11,12; 1 Cor. 4:1,2; Rom. 10:15; Heb. 5:4): yet he hath authority, and it is his duty, to take order, that unity and peace be preserved in the church, that the truth of God be kept pure and entire, that all blasphemies and heresies be suppressed, all corruptions and abuses in worship and discipline prevented or reformed, and all the ordinances of God duly settled, administered, and observed (Isa. 49:23; Ps. 122:9; Ezra 7:23,25-28; Lev. 24:16; Deut. 13:5,6,12; 2 Kings 18:4; 1 Chron. 13:1-9; 2 Kings 23:1-26; 2 Chron. 34:33; 2 Chron. 15:12,13). For the better effecting whereof, he hath power to call synods, to be present at them, and to provide that whatsoever is transacted in them be according to the mind of God (2 Chron. 14:8-11; 2 Chron. 29 and 30; Mt. 2:4,5).​

And the last section of WCF 23 for completeness:

IV. It is the duty of people to pray for magistrates, (1 Tim. 2:1-2) to honour their persons, (1 Pet. 2:17) to pay them tribute or other dues, (Rom. 13:6-7) to obey their lawful commands, and to be subject to their authority, for conscience’ sake. (Rom. 13:5, Tit. 3:1) Infidelity, or difference in religion, doth not make void the magistrates’ just and legal authority, nor free the people from their due obedience to them: (1 Pet. 2:13-14, 16) from which ecclesiastical persons are not exempted, (Rom. 13:1, 1 Kings 2:35, Acts 25:9-11, 2 Pet. 2:1, 10-11, Jude 8-11) much less hath the Pope any power and jurisdiction over them in their dominions, or over any of their people; and, least of all, to deprive them of their dominions, or lives, if he shall judge them to be heretics, or upon any other pretence whatsoever. (2 Thess. 2:4, Rev. 13:15-17)

In the course of history, Presbyterianism formally began in the new world (North America) in 1706 with the establishment of the first presbytery in Philadelphia. By the end of the century America was formed as a new nation and various denominations, including the Presbyterian Church, separated from the ecclesiastical authorities in Europe. In 1789 the first General Assembly convened in Philadelphia and formed the Presbyterian Church in the USA. At this assembly chapter twenty-three of the Westminster Confession of Faith was revised, reflecting the new religious politics that intended to keep distinct the role of the state and the church. WCF 23:3 was revised to read:

WCF 23.3 (American revision):
Civil magistrates may not assume to themselves the administration of the Word and sacraments; or the power of the keys of the kingdom of heaven; or, in the least, interfere in matters of faith. Yet, as nursing fathers, it is the duty of civil magistrates to protect the church of our common Lord, without giving the preference to any denomination of Christians above the rest, in such a manner that all ecclesiastical persons whatever shall enjoy the full, free, and unquestioned liberty of discharging every part of their sacred functions, without violence or danger. And, as Jesus Christ hath appointed a regular government and discipline in his church, no law of any commonwealth should interfere with, let, or hinder, the due exercise thereof, among the voluntary members of any denomination of Christians, according to their own profession and belief. It is the duty of civil magistrates to protect the person and good name of all their people, in such an effectual manner as that no person be suffered, either upon pretense of religion or of infidelity, to offer any indignity, violence, abuse, or injury to any other person whatsoever: and to take order, that all religious and ecclesiastical assemblies be held without molestation or disturbance.


In the WCF Chapter 23 it is taught that the civil magistrate has authority to take order that all the ordinances of God be duly settled, administrated, and observed. Confessional Presbyterians base their constitution on the attainments of the second reformation period, sometimes called the covenanted work of reformation. It was in this context that the work of the Westminster Assembly was accomplished. The Westminster Assembly was called into existence and acted under the direction of the Long Parliament. Its accomplishments are not merely a legacy of reformation, but a platform for biblical church unity.

The revision of WCF 23:3 shown in the Spoiler above reflects the principles of an early American nation established without an official state church, like the Church of England. Sadly, this revision charges the civil magistrates to not give any preference to any Christian denomination. Furthermore, the responsibility of the civil magistrate is to protect all their citizens regardless of their religious affiliation. This is quite different then the seventeenth-century version of the WCF that instructs civil magistrates that all blasphemies and heresies be suppressed, all corruptions and abuses in worship and discipline prevented or reformed, and all the ordinances of God duly settled, administered, and observed (Isa. 49:23; Ps. 122:9; Ezra 7:23,25-28; Lev. 24:16; Deut. 13:5,6,12; 2 Kings 18:4; 1 Chron. 13:1-9; 2 Kings 23:1-26; 2 Chron. 34:33; 2 Chron. 15:12,13).

The discussion of WCF Chapter 23 sooner or later comes around to the topic of establishmentarianism.

What exactly is the establishment principle that establishmentarians (like myself) hold to?

The Establishment Principle maintains the scriptural view of the universal supremacy of Christ as King of Nations as well as King of saints, with the consequent duty of nations as such, and civil rulers in their official capacity, to honor and serve Him by recognizing His truth and promoting His cause. Quite simply, it is the duty of the magistrate to uphold both tables of the law.

More random thoughts...

God sets up governments, and removes them. God decides when a magistrate has lost his right to govern. Individual subjects don't compare his conduct to a code, and then decide if he be any more a governor. Rebels should be very sure of their success, because God will exercise an exacting standard when He judges their conduct.

It might be worth considering that we live and work under the lesser magistrate (sheriffs, police chiefs, mayors, even governors) doctrine every day. Democracy is a bloodless revolution. The principle of revolution is ingrained in the fabric of the system. It is backed by the exercise of the sword against domestic and foreign enemies on a day to day basis. So successful is the exercise of this sword that the general public rarely have to see it in action or consider its work of blood. Moreover, we live in a church establishment which allows us to meet in public and to profess Christianity under the protection of the law, and this establishment upholds the doctrine of the lesser magistrate.

People today do not seem to understand how our peaceful societies of law and order are indebted to the principles of the magisterial reformation. They take up a pacifist position because they assume upon their liberties as entitlements and do not perceive the sacrifices which have been made to secure them.

If one says that God establishes the right of fathers, this will require an adjustment of civil power in the direction of constitutional rights, which is Lex Rex. So then it becomes a question, What is the source of law which regulates constitutional rights? The answer to that question brings us into the realm of religion.

Establishment of religion is a fact. The only question is whether the establishment is based on true or false religion. The establishment principle is Reformed. Those who reject it are not. Who decides what is Reformed? Not those who reject the establishment principle. Those who reject the establishment principle seek to redefine Reformed faith and life, and thereby place themselves outside the Reformed tradition. Should clarification be asked, I qualify that it is specifically on the issue of Church and State. But whether a man hits his golf ball out of bounds by an inch or a hundred feet makes no alteration to the fact that his ball is out of bounds and he has no right to redefine the golf course in order to call his ball in play.

May God give particular Christians, called to exercise some degree of secular rule, the wisdom to do their governing labor as unto the Lord, as a Christian magistrate should. But I believe we are a long ways off from seeing a groundswell of public interest in a Christian-magistracy.

Consider the absolute:
"Any deviation from God's Law relinquishes the magistrates right to govern."

It is a true statement. But, deviations from the law do not remove legitimacy of government. It is when the government moves itself outside the boundaries of law so that its abuses cannot be redressed that it opens itself up to lawful revolutionary action on the part of inferior magistrates.

AMR

Thank you for your reply as well....much up for consideration
 

JudgeRightly

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Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior
Yet American citizens "are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights..."

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.



Borrowing off of an already great document are you? Where's your originality?

By the way, all of the rights found in the proposed Constitution are derived from Scripture, not our current Constitution.

Just thought I'd mention that.
 

aCultureWarrior

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Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government,

Except they don't have that right. They have the right (and responsibility) to obey God rather than man, and civil disobedience when the government commands it's citizens to do evil, but the people do not have the right to rebel against the authorities. This is rather explicitly stated in Romans:

Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil...

Thanks for acknowledging what God expects of civil leaders. I must have missed where He doesn't approve of overthrowing evil governments.

What does the Bible say about war?
https://www.gotquestions.org/war-Bible.html

Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
You do realize that in your type of government barbarians like Adolf Hitler would stay in power?

Adolf Hitler was elected Chancellor of Germany by a republic form of government, not a constitutional monarchy. By your system, people like Hitler, Hillary, and Trump, can all come into power, let alone stay in power.

Hitler, like Donald Trump, fooled people into believing that he stood for decency and righteous laws (Hitler was backed by the Catholic Church, Trump by a few at one time reputable evangelical Christians). Someone has to appoint a civil leader, whether it be the populace through elections, or in your case the hierarchy of a state church. The Founding Fathers were wise enough to allow an evil leader to be thrown out of office, your monarchy won't allow that.

aCW, question for you:

Let's say you and I are at a restaurant, having a good meal, debating the topics of the day, and the busboy comes to clean the table next to us.
My question is this: Who would lead the country better: Trump or the busboy?

If the busboy wasn't flying a rainbow flag, didn't say that "Planned Parenthood does very good things" and didn't have a long history of perverse actions towards women, of course my answer would be the busboy. If he did, I'd find he and Donald Trump a table and they could sit together and compare notes.

Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
I can see it now: Sit-ins outside the Ovens at Auschwitz and Buchenwald. BTW, how's that civil disobedience working when it comes to the death of 60 million unborn babies at the hands of abortionists?

Well, since the form of government we currently have has made it practically illegal to actively protest, not very well.

The right to life was established in the 14th Amendment (I'll take righteous laws over sit-ins any day).

Ted Cruz: We Can ‘Absolutely’ Outlaw Abortion Without Overturning Roe
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/post/...tely-outlaw-abortion-without-overturning-roe/

Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
There are plenty of passages and verses in the Bible showing the proper role of civil government as well as how people are supposed to deal with evil.

Such as the one I quoted above?

Again, God set the standard for civil government and it's rulers. Nowhere in Holy Scripture does He say that evil can't be punished.


Quote; Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE
http://www.gemworld.com/USA-Unalienable.htm

Yet the 3 institutions that God ordained for the governance of men (which you named above) requires that those institutions take action, not sit back idly hoping that God will intervene.

That's all well and good, but when the institution that has authority over the other two is trying (actively) to destroy the other two, as with our current government, then there's a problem, and it's caused by the form of government.

That's the fault of the people (many of them Christian) who sit idly back and allow it to happen. The Biblically based American form of government allows it's citizens to remove evil politicians from public office, your form of government doesn't have that checks and balances that the Constitution has.

Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarior
Who should we blame for not holding our politicians up to those founding principles and not protecting our God-given rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? The people, for electing them into office.

But then again, the majority is evil, so it's not surprising that the majority of politicians elected (by the majority) are evil.

You're confusing a democracy with a representative republic where it's citizens rights come from God (The United States is the latter).

Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
Government consists of people, even in your monarchy.

True. However, the King is the ultimate authority in the land, not the people under him.

Tyrants scare me.

Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
Good God-fearing people electing and then holding government officials accountable for their actions is what at one time made America great. And has slowly degraded that government into a wicked and corrupt one. Remember what good ol' Ben Franklin said when asked by a lady if we had a republic or monarchy?

He said, "A republic, if you can keep it."

If you can keep it. And clearly we haven't.

Don't get me started on apathetic Christians.

Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
Yet you're willing to give someone who rules against the wishes of God a free pass?

Free pass? Do you not remember what Jesus said?

In review: You've said that even an evil monarch couldn't be righteously overthrown and that he will eventually face God.

That sounds a bit anarchist to me. Why put murderers, rapists and thieves on trial and punish them when they too await the judgement of God?

Our once great nation was founded by Christians who wanted to get away from a state religion, please don't try and bring one back to this country.
 
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aCultureWarrior

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By the way, all of the rights found in the proposed Constitution are derived from Scripture, not our current Constitution.

Just thought I'd mention that.

Being that our country's founding documents are based on Holy Scripture, it looks like you're borrowing off the wisdom of our Founding Fathers without giving them credit.

The Bible and Government

Biblical Principles: Basis for America's Laws

http://www.faithfacts.org/christ-and-the-culture/the-bible-and-government
 

Gary K

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. At our best, in the begining, we said a black man was only 3/5 human



The wicked never rest. Even in the lake of fire, where they will be tormented (thank God) begging for forgiveness.



It isn't a presumption.



You mean like the democratically elected legislature has done in America? Obamacare, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, gun control, illegal aliens voting, are all forbidden by the constitution, but you don't care because you agree with those evil things.



Like Justice Ginsburg, whom is on the wrong side of right and wrong every time she makes a judgment.

The myth I bolded above is pure myth. It's built upon a deep misunderstanding of US history.

The Europeans established slavery here long before the US ever became a nation. It was mainly the European nobility who were responsible as they told their land manager over here that they would use slaves, or they would find other land managers. This established slavery in the south in the 1600s and ensured that the economies in the southern English colonies would be dependent on slavery.

When the US Constitution was formed the colonies had two separate economies. The North had an economy independent of slavery. The South had an economy dependent on slavery. The northern population didn't want slavery. The southern population wanted it as it was the only economic reality that they knew, and they knew if it was abolished their entire economy would collapse. So, they did what people always do when their financial life is at stake. They fought for their status quo.

As the northern representatives tried to abolish slavery the southern ones fought back. At first the southern representatives wanted two things. They wanted to classify their slaves as animals, and they wanted to give their slaves the right to vote. Of course that meant that the southern slaveholders would hold immense personal political power as they would do the voting in the name of their slaves. The slaves themselves would never be allowed to cast an independent vote.

The northerners said, no way. You can't have it both ways. You can't legally classify a man as an animal and then in the same breath say he is a logical rational human being with a vote on all matters which he himself will not actually cast. So, the northerners said, if you want that we will legally classify all our cattle, horses, mules, sheep, goats, etc... as humans with the right to vote and cast votes for them. As the north had far more farm animals than the south had slaves this wasn't acceptable to the southerners, as the northerners well-knew when they made the proposition. So the compromise came about that a negro vote counted as only 3/5 of a vote. Why did the northerners agree to that? To limit the political power of the southern slaverholders. It had nothing to do wth the northerners believing a negro wasn't a human being with all the rights of a human being. It was to limit the political power of slavery itself. If this compromise had not been reached there never would have been a United States, and both sides knew it.

So, the United States came into being with a compromise that both sides hated. And that compromise was one that had been forced upon them by the English lords, long since dead, who had established their plantations in the south as bastions of cruelty. What is interesting is that the southerners agreed that slavery needed to be abolished, and both northerners and southerners thought they had created the death knell of slavery, for this compromise also said that slavery was to be limited to where it existed at that time. It was to not to spread any further, geographically speaking.

So, this idea that the founding fathers belived a negro was only 3/5 of a person is built upon a lie. It is pure fiction.
 

Stripe

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But there isn't.

If there was, that could be restated as there being a positive correlation between what is right and what is unpopular. That correlation simply does not exist.

It doesn't?

How many nations permit abortion?
 

glassjester

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It doesn't?

How many nations permit abortion?

No, there is not a correlation between being unpopular and being right.

It's popular, among nations, to criminalize rape. Does that mean rape is right?
It's popular to ban theft. So theft is right?

Come on.
 

Stripe

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No, there is not a correlation between being unpopular and being right.
Because you say so?

How many nations permit homosexuality?

It's popular, among nations, to criminalize rape.
But it's not popular to bring rapists to justice.

It's popular to ban theft.
And yet we have 50 percent of our income siezed.

Come on.
 

glassjester

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But it's not popular to bring rapists to justice.


Irrelevant to your claim. You say the popularity of a thing is an indication of it being morally wrong. Outlawing rape is very popular; therefore it is morally wrong to outlaw rape - according to your rule.

So abandon your theory, or admit its implication(s).
 

Stripe

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Irrelevant to your claim. You say the popularity of a thing is an indication of it being morally wrong. Outlawing rape is very popular; therefore it is morally wrong to outlaw rape - according to your rule.

So abandon your theory, or admit its implication(s).

It's more actual guidelines. :)
 

The Horn

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Judge Rightly, the founders set up America as the world's first SECULAR nation with a SECULAR government . None of them was the kind of evangelical Christian so common in America today .
Many were deists , meaning they believed that a deity created the world but has nothing to do with its governance and leaves human beings on their own, or were at most, lukewarm Christians .
The founders were followers of THE ENLIGHTENMENT, and many were also freemasons .
They were well aware of all the religious strife which had caused so much bloodshed and oppression in Europe and wanted to allow all Americans to follow whatever religion they chose as well as none at all .
Thomas Jefferson was a deist, not a Christian . He did not believe in Christianity at all and had a low opinion of it as well as organized religion in general. He admired Jesus as a teacher of morality but did not believe a all in the virgin birth, the miracles or the Resurrection . and declared that "Christianity is the most perverse system that ever shone on man ".
Ben Franklin declared " Lighthouses are more useful than Churches " and found Christian doctrine and dogma "unintelligible ."
Jefferson prepared his own version of the Bible which removed all references to the virgin birth, the miracles and the Resurrection etc .
They never anticipated a time when America would be the most religiously diverse nation on earth , but if they could come back today and see millions of Americans who were followers of religions other than Christianity as well as so many atheists and agnostics, they would have been overjoyed !
And they would have had absolutely no problem with peaceful, law-abiding Muslims in America .
 

JudgeRightly

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I feel I finally have an answer for this, ACW. Apologies for the delay.

Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government,

Thanks for acknowledging what God expects of civil leaders. I must have missed where He doesn't approve of overthrowing evil governments.

Question for you, and this will hopefully lead you to why it is wrong to do so.

Here's the question: Was it wrong for Satan to want to overthrow God, and follow through with it by corrupting the rest of His creation?

What does the Bible say about war?
https://www.gotquestions.org/war-Bible.html

Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
You do realize that in your type of government barbarians like Adolf Hitler would stay in power?

Hitler, like Donald Trump, fooled people into believing that he stood for decency and righteous laws (Hitler was backed by the Catholic Church, Trump by a few at one time reputable evangelical Christians). Someone has to appoint a civil leader, whether it be the populace through elections, or in your case the hierarchy of a state church. The Founding Fathers were wise enough to allow an evil leader to be thrown out of office, your monarchy won't allow that.

Here's another question for you:

How many kings, as soon as they committed atrocities, were immediately taken out of power (either by the people or by God) in the Kingdom of Israel in the Old Testament.

How many wicked kings (and there were more wicked kings than good) were there, and how long were each of their reigns? How many good kings, and how long were each of their reigns?

(By the way, a dictator is not a monarch, even though they are similar, so trying to compare Hitler's rule to a monarchic rule is comparing apples to oranges.)

If the busboy wasn't flying a rainbow flag, didn't say that "Planned Parenthood does very good things" and didn't have a long history of perverse actions towards women, of course my answer would be the busboy. If he did, I'd find he and Donald Trump a table and they could sit together and compare notes.

And yet, in our current culture, because we have rule by many, we have wickedness down to even the busboy.

Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
I can see it now: Sit-ins outside the Ovens at Auschwitz and Buchenwald. BTW, how's that civil disobedience working when it comes to the death of 60 million unborn babies at the hands of abortionists?

We wouldn't even have abortion if it weren't for the kind of government we have now. That's how bad it is, ACW, because laws that don't change, such as do not murder, do not steal, do not commit adultery, when kept unchanging, with appropriate punishments for each, deter people from ever committing those crimes, to the point where they don't even want to think about doing so. Not in this country though, where we coddle the criminal and execute the baby.

The right to life was established in the 14th Amendment (I'll take righteous laws over sit-ins any day).

Correction: The right to life was established as law (obviously, people had the right before, but it was never established in any known law) in Exodus 20:13.

Ted Cruz: We Can ‘Absolutely’ Outlaw Abortion Without Overturning Roe
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/post/...tely-outlaw-abortion-without-overturning-roe/

We could overturn Roe V Wade and Abortion would still be legal, because of all the laws that have since come into existence since then. You would have to repeal every single one of those laws in addition to RvW in order to make abortion completely illegal.

Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
There are plenty of passages and verses in the Bible showing the proper role of civil government as well as how people are supposed to deal with evil.

Again, God set the standard for civil government and it's rulers. Nowhere in Holy Scripture does He say that evil can't be punished.

Where have I said that evil can't or shouldn't be punished? I have said, if you read what I said carefully, that even a wicked king would not escape punishment for his wickedness.

Quote; Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE
http://www.gemworld.com/USA-Unalienable.htm

Yet the 3 institutions that God ordained for the governance of men (which you named above) requires that those institutions take action, not sit back idly hoping that God will intervene.

There is nothing wrong with a nation protesting a wicked law. In fact, it's expected and even encouraged (See the section titled "Amendment Process" in the images in the OP of this thread.)


"Any amendment or command, in defiance of this Constitution, including one that increases taxes, gives all subjects the responsibility to engage in peaceful civil disobedience against such offence.



That's the fault of the people (many of them Christian) who sit idly back and allow it to happen. The Biblically based American form of government allows it's citizens to remove evil politicians from public office, your form of government doesn't have that checks and balances that the Constitution has.

See my above question about God removing Israel's kings.

Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarior
Who should we blame for not holding our politicians up to those founding principles and not protecting our God-given rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? The people, for electing them into office.

You're confusing a democracy with a representative republic where it's citizens rights come from God (The United States is the latter).

They're kissing cousins. Generally speaking, a representative republic is literally just democracy with an extra step added in.

And again, either way, I point to Korah's rebellion in Numbers 16. Do you remember what God thought about the people electing representatives to rule instead of having Aaron and Moses lead?

Here you go:

Spoiler
Now Korah the son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, with Dathan and Abiram the sons of Eliab, and On the son of Peleth, sons of Reuben, took men;and they rose up before Moses with some of the children of Israel, two hundred and fifty leaders of the congregation, representatives of the congregation, men of renown.They gathered together against Moses and Aaron, and said to them, “ You take too much upon yourselves, for all the congregation is holy, every one of them, and the Lord is among them. Why then do you exalt yourselves above the assembly of the Lord?”So when Moses heard it, he fell on his face;and he spoke to Korah and all his company, saying, “Tomorrow morning the Lord will show who is His and who is holy, and will cause him to come near to Him. That one whom He chooses He will cause to come near to Him.Do this: Take censers, Korah and all your company;put fire in them and put incense in them before the Lord tomorrow, and it shall be that the man whom the Lord chooses is the holy one. You take too much upon yourselves, you sons of Levi!”Then Moses said to Korah, “Hear now, you sons of Levi:Is it a small thing to you that the God of Israel has separated you from the congregation of Israel, to bring you near to Himself, to do the work of the tabernacle of the Lord, and to stand before the congregation to serve them;and that He has brought you near to Himself, you and all your brethren, the sons of Levi, with you? And are you seeking the priesthood also?Therefore you and all your company are gathered together against the Lord. And what is Aaron that you complain against him?”And Moses sent to call Dathan and Abiram the sons of Eliab, but they said, “We will not come up!Is it a small thing that you have brought us up out of a land flowing with milk and honey, to kill us in the wilderness, that you should keep acting like a prince over us?Moreover you have not brought us into a land flowing with milk and honey, nor given us inheritance of fields and vineyards. Will you put out the eyes of these men? We will not come up!”Then Moses was very angry, and said to the Lord, “Do not respect their offering. I have not taken one donkey from them, nor have I hurt one of them.”And Moses said to Korah, “Tomorrow, you and all your company be present before the Lord —you and they, as well as Aaron.Let each take his censer and put incense in it, and each of you bring his censer before the Lord, two hundred and fifty censers; both you and Aaron, each with his censer.”So every man took his censer, put fire in it, laid incense on it, and stood at the door of the tabernacle of meeting with Moses and Aaron.And Korah gathered all the congregation against them at the door of the tabernacle of meeting. Then the glory of the Lord appeared to all the congregation.And the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying,“Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment.”Then they fell on their faces, and said, “O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and You be angry with all the congregation?”So the Lord spoke to Moses, saying,“Speak to the congregation, saying, ‘Get away from the tents of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram.’”Then Moses rose and went to Dathan and Abiram, and the elders of Israel followed him.And he spoke to the congregation, saying, “Depart now from the tents of these wicked men! Touch nothing of theirs, lest you be consumed in all their sins.”So they got away from around the tents of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram; and Dathan and Abiram came out and stood at the door of their tents, with their wives, their sons, and their little children.And Moses said: “By this you shall know that the Lord has sent me to do all these works, for I have not done them of my own will.If these men die naturally like all men, or if they are visited by the common fate of all men, then the Lord has not sent me.But if the Lord creates a new thing, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the pit, then you will understand that these men have rejected the Lord.”Now it came to pass, as he finished speaking all these words, that the ground split apart under them,and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the men with Korah, with all their goods.So they and all those with them went down alive into the pit; the earth closed over them, and they perished from among the assembly.Then all Israel who were around them fled at their cry, for they said, “Lest the earth swallow us up also! ”And a fire came out from the Lord and consumed the two hundred and fifty men who were offering incense.Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying:“Tell Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, to pick up the censers out of the blaze, for they are holy, and scatter the fire some distance away.The censers of these men who sinned against their own souls, let them be made into hammered plates as a covering for the altar. Because they presented them before the Lord, therefore they are holy; and they shall be a sign to the children of Israel.”So Eleazar the priest took the bronze censers, which those who were burned up had presented, and they were hammered out as a covering on the altar,to be a memorial to the children of Israel that no outsider, who is not a descendant of Aaron, should come near to offer incense before the Lord, that he might not become like Korah and his companions, just as the Lord had said to him through Moses. - Numbers 16:1-40 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers16:1-40&version=NKJV


Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
Government consists of people, even in your monarchy.

Tyrants scare me.

Does God scare you? He is the King of Kings, and the Lord of Lords. He is far more powerful than any tyrant.

I heard this statement a while back, and I would tend to agree with it.

"I would rather have 1 tyrant ruling 3 thousand miles away, than 3 thousand tyrants ruling 1 mile away."

Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
Good God-fearing people

Are few and far in between in this country, because we have bad government, bad laws, and dare I say it, bad religion.


Again, see Korah's rebellion, Numbers 16.

and then holding government officials accountable for their actions is what at one time made America great.

God didn't even let it get that far.

And has slowly degraded that government into a wicked and corrupt one. Remember what good ol' Ben Franklin said when asked by a lady if we had a republic or monarchy?

He said, "A republic, if you can keep it."

Don't get me started on apathetic Christians.

Then don't get me started on wicked people who hate God, who will do anything to shake their fist at Him in any way possible.

Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
Yet you're willing to give someone who rules against the wishes of God a free pass?

I don't see any free passes being given out...

If anything, I see the opposite:

Spoiler
“Let your waist be girded and your lamps burning;and you yourselves be like men who wait for their master, when he will return from the wedding, that when he comes and knocks they may open to him immediately.Blessed are those servants whom the master, when he comes, will find watching. Assuredly, I say to you that he will gird himself and have them sit down to eat, and will come and serve them.And if he should come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into.Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.”Then Peter said to Him, “Lord, do You speak this parable only to us, or to all people? ”And the Lord said, “Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season?Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has.But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk,the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more. - Luke 12:35-48 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke12:35-48&version=NKJV
Spoiler


In review: You've said that even an evil monarch couldn't be righteously overthrown and that he will eventually face God.

That sounds a bit anarchist to me.
How so?

Why put murderers, rapists and thieves on trial and punish them when they too await the judgement of God?

This ties into the two questions I posed to you near the beginning of this reply.

Our once great nation was founded by Christians who wanted to get away from a state religion, please don't try and bring one back to this country.

Who said anything about state religion?

Being that our country's founding documents are based on Holy Scripture, it looks like you're borrowing off the wisdom of our Founding Fathers without giving them credit.

The Bible and Government

Biblical Principles: Basis for America's Laws

http://www.faithfacts.org/christ-and-the-culture/the-bible-and-government

Or perhaps what I'm saying comes from drawing from God's Word, where God gets all the credit for teaching how He wants governments to be run, and which men like the FF drew from themselves.

ACW, perhaps you haven't noticed, but you often seem to place what men have come up with ABOVE what God came up with. Don't you think you should at least give God the courtesy of seeing what He says, BEFORE promoting what man says (even if it's about what God said)? Can you do me a favor and, before posting something that a man wrote, see if you can pull up scripture that might support your position, and then if you can, you might have a leg to stand on (especially with me, because I tend to accept what Scripture teaches over what man teaches, and you should too, if you're a Christian). If you cannot, then perhaps you should consider that it's not something that you should support. (And yes, the caveat is that there are things not mentioned (explicitly or not) that are ok and not ok, which is where we should ask for wisdom from God to get to the heart of the matter.)
 

aCultureWarrior

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Due to the length of your post and the amount of time I have (after posting all morning), I'll address one point at time. Feel free to respond.

I feel I finally have an answer for this, ACW. Apologies for the delay.


Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior
Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government,

Thanks for acknowledging what God expects of civil leaders. I must have missed where He doesn't approve of overthrowing evil governments.

Question for you, and this will hopefully lead you to why it is wrong to do so. Here's the question: Was it wrong for Satan to want to overthrow God, and follow through with it by corrupting the rest of His creation?

Unless I'm missing something, your question has nothing to do with the role of civil government and (according to our Christian Founding Fathers) the right to over throw an unjust government.

Surely you're not saying that it would have been wrong for the people of Germany to overthrow Adolph Hitler before he brutally murdered 20 million people?

What did God mean when He wrote this in Ecclesiastes 3:8?

"a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace."
 

The Barbarian

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Irrelevant to your claim. You say the popularity of a thing is an indication of it being morally wrong. Outlawing rape is very popular; therefore it is morally wrong to outlaw rape - according to your rule.

So abandon your theory, or admit its implication(s).

Stipe backpedals:
It's more actual guidelines.

Where have I seen this before...?

"Morals are solidified opinion."
"Morals soften under heat and pressure."

Cade Roberts
 

JudgeRightly

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Due to the length of your post and the amount of time I have (after posting all morning), I'll address one point at time. Feel free to respond.




Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior
Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government,

Thanks for acknowledging what God expects of civil leaders. I must have missed where He doesn't approve of overthrowing evil governments.

Unless I'm missing something, your question has nothing to do with the role of civil government and (according to our Christian Founding Fathers) the right to over throw an unjust government.

Actually it does. Could you please answer the question?

Surely you're not saying that it would have been wrong for the people of Germany to overthrow Adolph Hitler before he brutally murdered 20 million people?

If murder is wrong (and it is), and if the people had known right from wrong (which the law should have established), then EVERYONE who knew right from wrong should have resisted the government when it started committing crimes, and they should have committed civil disobedience.

But no, it would indeed have been wrong for them to overthrow their own government on their own. However, if another nation would have stepped in (and thankfully some did) they could have rightfully switched sides and placed themselves under the authority of the foreign nation to bring about justice. Again, this would be better explained by you answering both of the questions I asked in my previous post.

What did God mean when He wrote this in Ecclesiastes 3:8?

"a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace."

It means that governments have a right to wage war, if it is justifiable.

Within context of this thread, this sums up that verse:


"The King commands the military in order to protect America, her persons, land, and resources, from threats foreign, domestic, and natural; and also, at his discretion, to defend her allies."


(See "Armed Forces" in the OP images.)
 

aCultureWarrior

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Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
Unless I'm missing something, your question has nothing to do with the role of civil government and (according to our Christian Founding Fathers) the right to over throw an unjust government.

Actually it does. Could you please answer the question?

...Was it wrong for Satan to want to overthrow God, and follow through with it by corrupting the rest of His creation?

Again, you're going into an area which has nothing to do with civil government and it's role as described in Romans 13:4 and 1 Peter 2: 13-17.

Please share you train of thought, as I'm curious where you're attempting to go with it.

Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
Surely you're not saying that it would have been wrong for the people of Germany to overthrow Adolph Hitler before he brutally murdered 20 million people?

If murder is wrong (and it is), and if the people had known right from wrong (which the law should have established), then EVERYONE who knew right from wrong should have resisted the government when it started committing crimes, and they should have committed civil disobedience.

I highly doubt that Hitler would have been intimidated with sit-in protests outside of the death camps at Auschwitz and Buchenwald.


But no, it would indeed have been wrong for them to overthrow their own government on their own. However, if another nation would have stepped in (and thankfully some did) they could have rightfully switched sides and placed themselves under the authority of the foreign nation to bring about justice. Again, this would be better explained by you answering both of the questions I asked in my previous post.

And here I thought that the right to defend one's freedom was a God-given right. Would you rely on a another person to intervene if your freedom were at stake, or would you take it upon yourself to disable or even kill your attacker if it deemed necessary?
 
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