An Advocation of Government

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Clete

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It would be rebellion against the natural flow of authority.

The king is over the whole nation, but not the law. The people, be it one person or a committee or the nation as a whole, do not have the authority over the king to remove him from leadership, nor is there any way to have a law in place that would allow them to remove him, because that would undermine his authority.

Just popping in to let you know that I'm in the process of writing a response to your really long post with an even longer post of my own! It's a real marathon of a post so it's taking a while.

It's basically gotten ridiculously long so let me just tell you now that I not only don't expect you to respond to it all, I don't even want you to respond to it all. In fact, I'll try to sum it all up at the end so as to give you something more manageable to respond to. Just give me another day or so to get it finished.
 

JudgeRightly

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Just popping in to let you know that I'm in the process of writing a response to your really long post with an even longer post of my own! It's a real marathon of a post so it's taking a while.

It's basically gotten ridiculously long so let me just tell you now that I not only don't expect you to respond to it all, I don't even want you to respond to it all. In fact, I'll try to sum it all up at the end so as to give you something more manageable to respond to. Just give me another day or so to get it finished.

No worries!
 

Right Divider

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Well, what did Jesus say in the entirety of this event? To begin with, He doesn't respond verbally at all and writes on the ground. After continual questioning, according to accounts, He stands up and tells the accusers that if any there are without sin, then let them cast the first stone. There's differently worded versions depending on translations but effectively all amount to the same in context. After that, He continues to write on the ground and the accusatory mob all shuffle off one by one until none of them are left. Now, it isn't expressly stated what Jesus wrote on the ground but it's a reasonable posit that it was a list of things that every person in it would have been guilty of in part, possibly including adultery itself. Nobody there could have rightfully cast a stone because that would have made them a liar as none of them would have been perfect and without sin, correct?

If this were simply about a legal trap then why didn't Jesus just point out the obvious discrepancies and failings on a legal score alone, would have been easy enough, right? With one simple sentence, Jesus doesn't need to and makes a much deeper point that zealots seem to continually downplay. Sure, the legalists were trying to lay a trap but they were undone by one simple sentence and some words written on the ground that didn't even address any of that.
Jesus explicitly kept the law. The law requires TWO or THREE witnesses and NONE came forward.
 

JudgeRightly

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But he's effectively in command though, right?

Yes, and?

So, if this king, who is drawn by random holds no truck with the "law" then what's to be done?

Your question has been answered already.

https://kgov.com/constitution

Any amendment or command issued by the King in defiance of this Constitution including one that increases taxes, gives all subjects the responsibility to engage in non-violent civil disobedience, including by withholding taxes, against such offense.



That's it. Nothing more.


If the Monarch violates this Constitution through wrongful amendments or otherwise, while no American court has standing to prosecute him, he awaits the Judgment of God.



That he'll be held accountable for not upholding it in the afterlife?

Yes.

Assuming a foreign power doesn't invade.

That's not going to mean much to someone who doesn't believe the same as yourself is it?

It didn't mean much to the wicked kings of Israel either, now, did it?

And yet, God didn't remove them or implement a way to remove them.

He let them deal with the consequences of their actions.

Am I correct in recalling that any such king will be informed that there's a God

Yes.

and that he will be told such before agreeing to hold the position from one of your posts?

Whether he agrees with the fact that God exists or doesn't agree is irrelevant to his being appointed as king.

He can choose to accept or reject God, and he can choose to accept or reject the throne.

If he accepts the throne, he will be given a copy of the constitution, criminal code, and code of use, and while he is under obligation to follow the law throughout his reign, there is no one of high enough authority to compel him to do so, as he dwells above the jurisdiction of any other court in the land.

If so, what's that going to mean in itself to anyone, really?

To the average Joe, that will give him pause every time he thinks of violating the law.

Considering that the selection process is focused on the average Joe, and not focused on people who stand out, that lessens the chance (not completely, but some) that King Joe will violate the law.

Not very much realistically. An atheist could jump at the chance to hold such power and undermine the system and there's no power to stop him.

This is a logical extreme that won't happen often, but which you are fallaciously using just to call my position into question.

Do you have something that shows my position to be wrong? Or are you just griping?

Because you're forgetting that foreign powers are a thing, Artie.

If a king makes bad decisions, those decisions inherently weaken his nation. The threat of a foreign power taking over is also a deterrent against breaking the law, and a much stronger one, and more real and present one, so to speak, than the threat of future judgment by the God of all creation.

Just threats down the line which he won't give any real credence to anyway.

I think you don't give enough credit to the average Joe.

Your position is fundamentally (and ironically) flawed.

Saying it doesn't make it so, Artie.
 

JudgeRightly

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my four words was a summing up of this whole topic.

More like they sum up your interaction in this thread...

Clete has addressed this already:

. . .

First of all, it is never pointless to have discussions about justice and what a justice criminal code would look like. If you don't know what justice looks like, how would you know how to live the life you say God wants us to live? How would you know which laws to advocate for or against?

More importantly, this world if far away from anything resembling what God wants. God wants and even commands us to practice justice. The vast majority of people in the world wouldn't know what justice looked like if it walked right up to them and shook their hand. Indeed, if that were to happen, nearly everyone would have the exact same reaction you've had! They'd be offended by it and revolted by it and would reject it completely. Such is the human condition that you seem to think God has just the way He wants it to be.

. . .

Clete
 

Arthur Brain

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Jesus explicitly kept the law. The law requires TWO or THREE witnesses and NONE came forward.

That didn't answer anything whatsoever. Nobody is arguing that Jesus didn't keep the law or that the woman's accusers weren't trying to lay a trap. The point is that Jesus uttered a sentence that invited any of that bunch to cast a stone if they were without sin. They all shuffled off because obviously none of them weren't. Why are you ignoring or downplaying that?
 

Arthur Brain

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Yes, and?

So he can do what he wants with pretty much impunity.

Your question has been answered already.

https://kgov.com/constitution

Any amendment or command issued by the King in defiance of this Constitution including one that increases taxes, gives all subjects the responsibility to engage in non-violent civil disobedience, including by withholding taxes, against such offense.



That's it. Nothing more.


If the Monarch violates this Constitution through wrongful amendments or otherwise, while no American court has standing to prosecute him, he awaits the Judgment of God.


Well, not really. Your beliefs regarding a judgement in the afterlife aren't going to mean much to someone who holds no truck with this proposed constitution. In many a case, there'd be plenty believers who'd be opposed to it morally, never mind those of different persuasions.

Yes.

Assuming a foreign power doesn't invade.

Again, so? That's effectively just a belief of yours that can't be substantiated and one that wouldn't be given any credence by many people.

A foreign invasion is a different matter altogether.


It didn't mean much to the wicked kings of Israel either, now, did it?

And yet, God didn't remove them or implement a way to remove them.

He let them deal with the consequences of their actions.

Same as above. You might believe that your proposed system is righteous and Godly, nobody else is obliged to go along with the likes of Enyart on the matter and plenty would be morally opposed to such a legalistic set up as a form of "government".

Yes.

Whether he agrees with the fact that God exists or doesn't agree is irrelevant to his being appointed as king.

He can choose to accept or reject God, and he can choose to accept or reject the throne.

If he accepts the throne, he will be given a copy of the constitution, criminal code, and code of use, and while he is under obligation to follow the law throughout his reign, there is no one of high enough authority to compel him to do so, as he dwells above the jurisdiction of any other court in the land.

Right, so he's free to reject your assertions, retain his own set of beliefs (whatever they may happen to be) and effectively do what he wants with impunity. He can undermine the whole thing and can't be touched because he's effectively "above the law".

To the average Joe, that will give him pause every time he thinks of violating the law.

Considering that the selection process is focused on the average Joe, and not focused on people who stand out, that lessens the chance (not completely, but some) that King Joe will violate the law.

The "average Joe" would think that this whole proposed constitution is just flat out bonkers JR. You're part of a tiny minority of Christendom who would advocate such. That has nothing to do with an appeal to popularity, it's just fact. Why on earth would "average Joe" be compelled to follow your proposed constitution when he can do what he wants regardless?

This is a logical extreme that won't happen often, but which you are fallaciously using just to call my position into question.

Do you have something that shows my position to be wrong? Or are you just griping?

Because you're forgetting that foreign powers are a thing, Artie.

If a king makes bad decisions, those decisions inherently weaken his nation. The threat of a foreign power taking over is also a deterrent against breaking the law, and a much stronger one, and more real and present one, so to speak, than the threat of future judgment by the God of all creation.

Not really. You propose a system where the king is drawn by random and the chances of such a monarch being in agreement with such is akin to "average Joe" winning the lottery. There's no griping going on here. The threat of a foreign power taking over would be multiplied tenfold under your system because if the king is inept where it comes to defence there's nothing that can be done to remove him anyway is there?

I think you don't give enough credit to the average Joe.

Pfft, what, and you do? Half of the time you go on about how evil "average Joe" is in relation to democracy and yet you're advocating a system where in all likelihood "evil average Joe" would be in total power...

Saying it doesn't make it so, Artie.

Sure, common sense and logic makes it so.
 

ok doser

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That didn't answer anything whatsoever. It did, if you're receptive to what RD was telling you Nobody is arguing that Jesus didn't keep the law He kept the law perfectly or that the woman's accusers weren't trying to lay a trap. and in doing so were violating the law, which is a sin The point is that Jesus uttered a sentence that invited any of that bunch to cast a stone if they were without sin. which they weren't, because they were violating the law, which is a sin They all shuffled off because obviously none of them weren't. obviously, because they were violating the law, which is a sin Why are you ignoring or downplaying that? He isn't


They were violating the law, which is a sin

Not only is it a sin, but it is THE ONLY SIN the pharisees and scribes would have recognized as sin.

Why are you ignoring or downplaying that?


:sigh:
 
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Right Divider

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That didn't answer anything whatsoever. Nobody is arguing that Jesus didn't keep the law or that the woman's accusers weren't trying to lay a trap. The point is that Jesus uttered a sentence that invited any of that bunch to cast a stone if they were without sin. They all shuffled off because obviously none of them weren't. Why are you ignoring or downplaying that?

Do you think that this is the standard that we need to accuse someone of a crime? That the accuser must be sinless?
 

WYRose

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Just reading Catholic commentary on this incident and it seems the Catholics have decided the adulterous woman became Mary Magdalene and then to compound their foolishness they made her Saint Mary and sent her off to heaven!
The account is interesting in that the scribes and the Pharisees attempted to stone him in the temple despite the Roman rulers banning the Jews stoning anyone.
On looking up interpretations of John 8 I found a Jewish website which demanded the reference to the Bible be removed and the incident treated as myth!

Quote: 3@Yirmeyahu as I recall, the passage describes a mob, not a judicial hearing and execution. The scene described certainly doesn't comply with Masechet Sanhedrin. – Monica Cellio Jan 21 '14 at 0:08
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    Mawia, I've removed the link to a Christian bible site. Please edit in a citation, but for the sensibilities of some here leave out a link to such a site. – Seth J Jan 21 '14 at 0:37
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    @WadCheber the focus on Mi Yodeya is Judaism rather than debunking Christian myths, so the part about this not even being a credible account is something I would treat as a footnote. Answers should focus on the three questions called out at the end and treat the quoted passage as motivation for the question. If you've got something to add on those points please feel free to add an answer. Meanwhile, your comment points out the problem with the passage. – Monica Cellio Aug 26 '15 at 0:07
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    It is perhaps worth noting that this passage was almost certainly not a part of the original text of John and was added to the text a couple centuries later (though the story itself goes back at least to the 2nd century). – Noah Snyder Aug 27 '15 at 0:07
Obviously, the passage from John which you have quoted above falls under the second category1: no authorities, whether Roman or Jewish, are involved in this sequence of events. Rather, a mob is attempting to stone this woman of their own volition.
 
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