Says the hypocrite who showed up here to tell us all that he, all by himself, figured out what the corrupted bible actually is trying to teach
all while blanking out the fact that if whole sections of the bible are just allegory that is there to teach us this secret wisdom that he's been able to discern then it isn't corrupted at all but only written in such a way as only the super wise can figure it out.
It’s wild how differently people see these verses. Some read them literally, while others dig for hidden meanings. The stone vs. bread analogy is a good reminder that sometimes what we think we want isn’t what’s best for us.
So, you start by denying that you said it and then you say it again!Pretty sure I never said this. My journey has spanned many years, probably 15-20yrs purely on this particular leg of discovery and searching once freed from religious indoctrination. It's been a Hansel and Gretal trail of breadcrumbs, step by step from one thing leading to another and eventually to a realistion of what certain things in the Bible are saying. Where that trail came from I honestly can not say, whether there is one or more entities helping spread that trail I can not say. I've learned and read since that some refer to it as Ariandne's Thread (taken from the Greek mythology of course) and that this thread has been out there for a long time waiting for anyone to stumble across it and pick it up and start following it. So do please understand there's no arrogance in my stance here. I'm not special, I'm just one more person who picked up the thread and followed it. I would add that had I not been able to be wholly honest with myself and challenge all the Biblical religious indoctrination that I'd previously been subjected to, I could never have found this thread. Indoctrination and holding tight to fundamentalist dogma simply prevents you searching in other directions.
I don't know about "super wise" but yes, it seems clearly the secrets have been put there in such a way that the ordinary reader won't see or understand them. Jesus himself told his disciples that it was given to them to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but it was not given to everyone else. Those mysteries have over the past 2000 years spread to others, spread far and wide. You don't have to be super wise but i do think you have to have an open mind.
You're an intelligent guy. You know God isn't a sadist, you know He wouldn't hold people against their will, and that the Tree, while literal, was an allegory for something else, a way out of His presence.
CorrectNo, Jesus was not referring to red and white blood cells.
He was referring to the Passover, because He IS the Passover Lamb, the Lamb slain.
He commanded His disciples to eat and drink the bread and wine, which represented His body and His blood, and His blood is a sign to God to pass over anyone covered in it, because they have placed their trust in God.
There is much symbolism in the Bible, but that doesn't mean that the Bible is not to be taken literally, or that there is some hidden meaning (not that there isn't hidden meaning in some places) within it that only people such as yourself have discovered.
In other words, why insist on debating Calvin? Why not debate us?
The biblical fact is that God IS NOT omniscient, neither does He have exhaustive foreknowledge of the future, which means that He hasn't predestined the future either.
So, there goes you're entire premise for any need to remove the literal meaning of Genesis, at least as you have so far described. This rejection of the literal meaning of Genesis seems to be the only premise for your entire "theological" worldview. Why then shouldn't I reject your worldview as false on the basis of a false premise?
You certainly do seem to care about it because you won't let us say that he was wrong!Where does this obsession with Calvinism come from? I'm not interested in it. I don't even know what Calvinists believe. Nor do I care TBH.
It happens to be the central doctrine upon which this website was created to promote and defend both biblically and rationally.I think that's a view that many Christians would disagree with but I appreciate now that this isn't a concern for "Open Theists".
There are no such verses.And presumably you're aware of the many Bible verses that suggest God knows all, hearts and minds, etc etc but you have long since debated such topics and have all your ducks lined up to be able to refute such verses. Good for you.
Nonsense.It's not just Genesis. The Bible is riddled with examples elsewhere which relate the same secret in allegorical terminology.
I couldn't care less about your opinions. I'm interested in rational arguments.There are quotes of Jesus (as related in the Bible) that are imo talking about the same thing and passages all over to be found.
Well, thank you so much for permission to ignore your mindlessness.You're free to believe what you will and to reject whatever you will, same as anyone else. I have no problem if you're happy in your intellectual Theist position.
What the hell are your gibbering on about man?! You can say what you like, I haven't attempted to stop you at any point.You certainly do seem to care about it because you won't let us say that he was wrong!
The objections you raise are only true from within a Calvinistic paradigm. When we say that we disagree with a particular premise, your response is,
"So I'm afraid I can't accept your "excuse" that God's Omniscience isn't really omniscience, and that he just knows a lot of stuff but not everything. No that's absolutely not what the Bible says nor what the Churches preach to the subdued flocks."
Except that it is precisely what the bible says, you just need it to say what CALVIN said it says so that you can have your excuse to turn Genesis into a gigantic allegory. Without Calvinist doctrine being in the bible, you've got nothing!
It happens to be the central doctrine upon which this website was created to promote and defend both biblically and rationally.
There are no such verses.
Nonsense.
I couldn't care less about your opinions. I'm interested in rational arguments.
Well, thank you so much for permission to ignore your mindlessness.
Do you want to make an argument and present to us in some intelligent manner what this secret wisdom is and how you came to know it or is naked assertions and this "in my opinion" crap all you've got?
No one has said that you are a Calvinist.What the hell are your gibbering on about man?! You can say what you like, I haven't attempted to stop you at any point.
Wow this really is an obsession. This is like the blinkered red mist approach Americans have with Democrat vs Republican.
Let me be 100% clear once again. I am not a Calvanist.
You might actually be stupid. There was no need to look it up because I had just told you the specific doctrines that are in the way here.In fact I've just had to look up Calvanism because of your obsession with it and learn what Calvin believed. It's a nonsense. The notion that God is only interested in a select few and that Jesus only died for those select few. Nonsense.
But then I'm only saying this as "outsider" looking in on people's beliefs that are based on the Bible and its stories. The Calvin world makes no sense but then neither do any of the other worlds imho.
You're the one who made the argument SoT!I don't need any "excuse" to interpret Genesis as I do.
You're the one claiming to have independantly figured out the secret of the Universe and so please don't talk to me about getting "uppity".I am free to make that interpretation and it's one that has been somehow revealed to me over the years. I see in Genesis and in other parts of the Bible references to certain esoteric matters. I see similar references in other works as I have mentioned and equally in 100s of works, texts, treatises of various philosophers and sages. Really no need to get uppity about that.
Brotherly love does not include suffering fools who show up pretending to be among the wisest human beings to have graced the planet Earth but who seem incapable of following their own logic past the tip of their nose.Fair enough. It's not my intention to challenge or tear down any temples here. I get the feeling that I've inadvertently stumbled into some kind of boxing ring which sees people of differing Biblical beliefs slog it out rather vehemently on a regular basis. Perhaps that explains the "dialed up to 10" levels of animosity and insults that have been thrown almost immediately I arrived. It would be worth stepping back at some point and appraising how that looks from outsider's perspective. Do you think that paints a good picture of Christianity? Brotherly love and compassion?
It isn't a matter of opinion.Happy for you to believe this. I don't particularly care either way, I was just suggesting that lots of so-called Christians believe there are. I'm not one of them either way so it's no skin off my back.
I dismiss you out of hand because you're a fool who will string this along for a century before barfing up one single syllable of this "secret".So you don't believe that there are secrets hidden in the Bible allegories and you dismiss them out of hand even without being told what they are!
It is only the totally unsupported and unsupportable gibberish from ego inflated fools that I dismiss as nonsense.That's a very closed mind position to take. How can you ever learn anything if your opening gambit is that everything you don't currently know about is nonsense?
It wasn't intended to be.Saying "nonsense" isn't a rational argument.
I do not do adult discourse with fools. They are incapable of it and pretending otherwise feeds their delusions.Again the insults. Did I somehow wrong you in a previous life? Are you not capable of adult discourse without resorting to insults?
LOL!!!When you put it like that, I guess I'm minded not to want to share the secrets with you as your mind is neither open to anything new that you don't already know, your ego is clearly currently ruling your life and thus obstructiing you and really I don't need to as you highlighted earlier "cast pearls" before those who clearly have no interest. The mysteries of the kingdom are not for you I guess.
The PREMISE upon which you are basing your rejecting the plain reading of Genesis is a CALVINIST PREMISE!!!!!!!!!!
If that premise is false, then so is your reasoning behind rejecting the plain reading of Genesis!
It's literally like talking to a child.
You're the one claiming to have independantly figured out the secret of the Universe and so please don't talk to me about getting "uppity".
Brotherly love does not include suffering fools who show up pretending to be among the wisest human beings to have graced the planet Earth but who seem incapable of following their own logic past the tip of their nose.
It isn't a matter of opinion.
I dismiss you out of hand because you're a fool who will string this along for a century before barfing up one single syllable of this "secret".
SillyNo I'm sorry you are allowing your jaded prejudices to try and craft any discussion towards one of Calvinism and it's just not going to fly.
Neither do I. That isn't the point. The point is that these doctrines have an origin and are commonly referred to in certain ways. Your ignorance isn't my problem.I don't give a flying fig whether my views and beliefs are the same as anyone elses.
Circular stupidity. Your own posts that articulate your premises are still right here for the entire world to read, ToS!My premise for rejecting a literal reading of Genesis is completely based upon an understanding of the allegorical terms used within it and upon other references to teh same allegorical terms found elsewhere in the Bible as well as the same allegorical terms being found in other works such as those I have already cited.
There isn't one.I don't see what part of that is Calvinist. In fact let's put this to bed right now.
Please cite a source reference regarding Calvinism that describes Calvinism believing in an allegorical interpretation of parts of Genesis.
I'm fully in control of my emotions. I am intentionally ridiculing you because you are a fool and worthy of nothing more dignified. Your every post only furthers the proof of it.It's more like conversing with a teenager who can't control his emotions or temper and thinks that insults and derision somehow gain credibility in debate. You claim to be 55 in your profile. I don't believe it for one second.
YOU followed the crumbs but somehow it was someone else that figured it out for you?No I pretty clearly said I followed a trail of breadcrumbs, Ariandne's Thread and so haven't remotely claimed to have independently figured out anything. The red mist is obstructing both your reading and comprehension.
Your posts are all still here for the entire world to read, moron.I haven't claimed to be wise, that's another of your made-up fallacies needed to construct a false position.
It is not a matter of opinion. God is either omniscient or He is not. If He is not then you have no grounds upon which to declare that the story told in Genesis makes no sense and that it must therefore be an allegory.I don't care Clete, you can believe what you want about whether there is a God and whether that God is omniscient. So can every other human on earth. I don't believe what you believe simple as, nor do I believe what the vast majority of Christians believe. I'm happy for you to believe whatever you want, you have your own journey to make and you are where you are on that journey as is everyone else.
Your mind is non-existent and I am fully open to rational arguments, which you've neither provided nor are willing to provide. You're a hypocritical fool that I intend to expose until such time as you begin to present something substantive and not hysterically stupid.Then stop posting (at least in reply to me). Dismiss me properly or not at all. We have nothing to gain from further exchange. Your mind is closed.
If God isn't omniscient then your objections about how Genesis doesn't make sense when taken to mean what it actually says goes away.
SoT, I have neither the time nor the energy to go back through your specific discussion with Clete or others, but in post 112 you mentioned "the same hidden secret". Is there just one hidden secret? And if so, what is it? Bring it to light, thanks
Ahh, magic. Harry Potter stuff. Sorry, but you lost me. I have enough trouble accepting a literal interpretation of the Bible as most of those her accept. But Kabbalah like mysticism which you seem to put forth is sillier. You are dismissed.Oh I don't doubt there are numerous secrets in the texts but I'm no scholar. The primary secret is that of the Elixir Of Life, the "Tree of Life", Philosopher's Stone, Soma, Ambrosia call it what you will. It has numerous names spanning centuries and civilisations. Pointless dicussing it here though. You would need to first understand the basic terms, processes and expected benefits of this thing before being able to see the numerous references to it in the Bible.
That was YOUR argument SoT!!!No again you're wrong.
No it wasn't! You are basing your thought process on it. That's the reason you insist that the bible teaches it! If it doesn't teach it, you've lost the only leg this silly "allegory" idea of your has to stand on.The omniscience issue was only raised to show the additional absurdity of an already absurd story.
Saying it doesn't make it so.There's plenty of other absurdity if it's taken literally.
That's because you've also believe false doctrines that were imported from Greek philosophy by the likes of Augustine of Hippo and that we broadly call today "Calvinism". You dropped the wrong premise!I've never taken Genesis literally and throughout my entire life the Bible itself has never sat right with me.
Which are?It was only once I began to see and understand the meaning of the allegories that I had renewed interest in it and searched it properly and thereby found numerous references to the same hidden secret.
So you claim, without evidence.I went off to look for the same things in other works and was astounded to find them there too.
I dismiss you as a fool. I did that after about two of your posts. You will never post one single syllable of whatever it is this "secret" is on this website. You won't post it in response to me, you won't post it anywhere because there isn't any such thing. The only thing you came here to say was that Genesis isn't telling the truth. That's your whole gig and you were shut down inside of a single day because you wouldn't know a substantive argument if it walked up a slapped you in the face.But let's leave it there. Derisory exchanges are fruitless. If you're not actually going to dismiss me then I will you.
You are dismissed.
Ahh, magic. Harry Potter stuff. Sorry, but you lost me. I have enough trouble accepting a literal interpretation of the Bible as most of those her accept. But Kabbalah like mysticism which you seem to put forth is sillier. You are dismissed.
This guy is the bestest. I'll stick with science. But now I am concerned with where the Stone might be? Can we expect a Monty Python movie---the Search for the Stone? a sequel to their Holy Grail movie?? See if you can sell it to Marvel.Magic? Errr nope. Just the basic processes of Nature nothing more nothing less. So essentially science but science that uses the divine source of life which you perhaps call "God".
It's pretty clear that Jesus had the Stone which is what enabled him to perform amazing things including healings, transmutations and so on.
No magic involved. He taught his disciples how to make and use this thing imho. They kept it secret from ordinary people.
There are numerous processes involved in the creation of this substance, and Jesus refers to one of them in his parables.
The alchemical processes used result in various colour changes seen in the glass flasks used the most important of which are White, Black and Red.
The Black stage is often referred to as The Crow or Raven, allegorically speaking. The White often referred to as the Dove.
The Bible is riddled with references to the Stone, to the benefits it provides, to the colour changes seen during it's creation and much more.
But hey, I'm totally cool with you wanting to dismiss it out of hand. It's all there but it needs eyes to see and ears to hear as Jesus said.
ATB
I . . . am surprised that Clete and some others have bothered.
You constantly make CLAIMS, but you never provide a single shred of evidence.The Bible is riddled with references to the Stone, to the benefits it provides, to the colour changes seen during it's creation and much more.