According to your Bible, the character God is unchanging so "the times" are rather irrelevant. Murder is murder.
Murder and killing are two separate affairs.
I'm not second guessing anything.
Yeah. You are. Do you know the difference between killing and murder?
The stories recount an entity that murders with abandon and not simply targetted murder but widespread annihilation taking the lives of men, women, children, babies and as yet unborn babies.
1) Created things belong to the Creator. I can do whatever I like with my Legos, no questions asked.
2) A loving Being is at the very least trying to do the right thing, to save somebody, anybody (you've been and continue hasty without an intelligent contemplation. You do.
3) I'll excuse you a tad. I've ancient history in my docket. You've likely no idea. You are importing into another's context badly.
4) Stop. Think. You are wrong and won't admit. I love your reason for it, but you are ignorant (and I'm sorry to be the one).
From a human or humanist standpoint there is absolutely no excuse for this tyrannical behaviour.
5) Again, stop. You've no idea what you are talking about because you never 'entertained' what a loving God would do. His grand design is to save. Anybody. He had to do something. I'm not trying to peer under the veil, I'm saying it is wholly unreasonable (where I was, where you are) to import one's ideals into those dark times. Yes, parents were killing their own. They were like so much dross. It is only contemporary that we value children. You are, importing. Was it wrong? Yes!
The populations of the world would simply not stand for such monstrous activity. As you say, such behaviour is utterly barbaric. Certainly not the actions of a loving entity.
You are/were hasty when you left. You didn't wrestle with the conflict, you abandoned. For me? Didn't make sense, I wrestled, took ancient history, read Bible Lands and customs. You didn't even do that.
Evasion. So you're just gonna gloss over the appalling genocide of all living things on Earth and double down on your disgusting notion that if you're going to kill a given male perpetrator it's fine and acceptable to go kill his wife and children also even though they've committed no crime themselves. Unbelievable.
See? YOU abandoned. For me: "What does this have to do with a loving God unwilling that any should perish?" Thus began a long dig you abandoned. You were unwilling so you came up with your own ideas, out of context, from a time where our world is very different. And you didn't entertain benefit for the doubt. You didn't figure it out. You dismissed and took your own road and made up stories to make it work. That is not brave, nor freedom. Freedom is 'being who were meant to be.'
OMG ! So now you're supporting the notion of Precrime as per the film Minority Report?!! You'd condemn a person to death on the basis that you believe there exists a way to know in advance if that person will commit a heinous crime in the future?!! How warped is that?!
Ah, you didn't like the movie? I loved it. It wrested with all your ideas. Didn't you pay attention? Forget that: I was trying to get you to think about 'what the moral thing to do' would be. Your world is black and white but it doesn't synch with reality, the world we know. Take for instance hurricanes. God can stop them but we are in charge of the planet. He has called us to use our minds. Why would an all powerful God do that? Think with me: To make us like Him. If we have the responsibility to stop atrocity, we are the ones who are responsible. You may not like the responsibility. A Creator can place responsibility on His creation. You may not like it, but it is righteous in expectation. "Filthy rags" describes something poor in us. Sin affects us. His intent? No. Prescription then, is "how do I fix this?" At the very least, give thought for Him 'trying.' I'm not saying God tries, I'm saying I'm peering underneath the veil. God has His reasons. I started with "God is good and in Him is no darkness at all" (forgive the paraphrase as it isn't exactly on point).
Killing of innocents is never justified.
Let's revisit the bomb. It did kill many lives. War is different from God and His intent, but it illustrates a need. The bombs did, in fact, save more lives than it took. While I'm with you: killing people isn't good 1) The target was a mistake, they thought they were hitting a military base. Bad intel. 2) Those children saved Japanese lives. By choice? Mayhap. 3) While any of this may not suffice, it will get you thinking beyond your black and white constructs. There is just too much for us to wave a hand in dismissal. Justice demands a fair trial rather than a witch burning. We are not barbarians. In the United States "innocent until
proven guilty.' It is the best kind of justice system.
Your mind is sick and diseased if you think otherwise. You seem to want to gloss over and ignore your god's wilful killing if innocent women, children and babies and as yet unborn babies. Why am I not surprised?!
Hasty witch burning. See above. Your conclusions are all wrong because you've never took a truthful look at your own suppositions. You are right, everybody else wrong, end of your story. Break that up and entertain that there are good people in the world and that they've wrestled longer and harder than you have, that your glib quick and judgmental is without empathy. On point I'm 'sick and diseased' as a gut level veneer response with none of the care and concern you think you espouse better than the rest of us. You are that guy.
Again you're choosing to gloss over all the innocent women, children, babies and as yet unborn babies wilfully murderded by your god.
You are hearing but not listening. Your ears are plugged on purpose. You never gave me the benefit of the doubt. 1) Killing and murder are not the same thing. 2) I care that these are killed. God cares that these are killed. You care that these are killed. Go from there with us all in the same boat (or not).
That's not fact, it's just your religiously indoctrinated opinion, which of course you are welcome to.
1) Jesus existed
2) He said it was true.
3) Entertain you are wrong for 10 minutes.
And yet the Bible recounts this character emulating it and engaging in wicked acts such as the wilful murder of innocent women, children, babies and as yet unborn babies. Such can not be justified.
You come back to this repeatedly. You listen but have not heard.
Patently not if the book recounts the character of God as engaging in wilful evil acts.
Until you understand that His sole desire is to actually save, not physical bodies, lives, you will not have context for your judgements.
You mean, like so many deluded Christians I should try and forget the OT, somehow make excuses for it and just look at the NT and compartmentalise the uncomfortable truths in the OT? No thanks. That's self denial. Delusion.
No it is not. It is trying to first understand Who He is. It isn't denial and it is not delusional. Even in the O.T. is commentary on how God feels about deaths that you've missed.
The Bible states that God is unchanging. The same now and forever. The BIble does not talk about 2 different Gods. It's the same character throughout. The fact that in th elatter half he becomes all apologetic and starts promising to be good and won't ever kill everyone and everything again is meaningless. No better than Hitler suggesting he'll be good from now on after WW2. If the very nature of your god is one that is willing to kill innocent women, children and babies, then that remains his nature. Now and forever. You've been sold a pup my friend. You're not worshipping the real true god.
Agree. Now travel the road I did. It is a long road but worth the effort and you'll be better and better informed for it. Love is the best, but it is a messy business. We aren't living a fairy tale. We are living with sin (that which God never intended) and love has to reach in the nooks and wake of it.
No this is horribly wrong. You did not create those children, you merely helped facilitate the environment in which the universal life force animated them. They are NOT yours at all. You do not own them and believing you do is abhorrent. Go re-read the words of Kahlil Gibran that I posted. You have a responsibility to look after your children until they are able to fend for themselves. But they are their own human beings. They are free spirits, owned by no-one on this planet. You must let them be and if you indoctrinate them with your own personal fanatical ideologies before they are old enough to think critically for themselves then you are wicked.
I told you, he is wrong. He gives platitudes and assumes our independence. We belong to one another as social beings. Don't confuse ownership with responsibility. "I am my Beloveds and He is mine." My children thus call me 'their Dad.' It is a belonging and attachment not to be scorned as your man would lead you.
I'm happy for you if you need to believe such as your comfort blanket to get through life. Your Bible however states clearly that your god has no favourites (Rom 2:11, Deut 10:17 etc etc). You are not special even though you've convinced yourself that you are. Your experiences are the result of well known psychological fallacies, the like of which cold readers and fraudulent clairvoyants are well known for.
LOL. I don't care if I'm 'special' as one in a billion. Special is special. You've concocted all kinds of dismissive for your unbelief as if such couldn't be true. Your beliefs are so walled-in that you no longer think of possibility. Okay, I'm delusional: When somebody who is sick, instantly (instantly mind you) walks away well, a cold, you have to deal with facts. He was congested, scratchy throat. Never mind the plethora of why's, just walk with me a half mile. I've story after story and these all just this stark. Am I special? Yes. No. It doesn't matter. It isn't about me. It is about God.
Already settled. Jesus was a man (assuming he existed at all).
It'd be foolish to believe He didn't exist.
A very remarkable man, but a man nonetheless.
Then stop entertaining He might not have existed. He did.
He clearly, like most men, had desires for women and took a wife in Mary Magdalene with whom he had children. Your censored doctrine of course shields and hides that fact.
Wow.
Just wow. It is odd. You won't believe what is in front of you, yet will run to works of fiction and believe them. Selective much?
He was also a keeper of the great secrets. He was without any doubt an Alchemist and he had in his possession the fabled Stones of the Wise and the knowledge and means to create it and use it.
For a guy who doesn't want to believe in answered prayer, you alternatively rush to myth.
To ordinary Christians this would seem fantastical but that is because they do not have the eyes to see and ears to hear that Jesus spoke of in the Bible text.
Appeal of special knowledge and privilege. "Special" much?
Jesus himself mentions the vital processes of alchemy in his parables and also gave a stark warning to all that unless you eat and drink the White and Red Stones of alchemy, then there is no life in you.
You've paraphrased, assumed.
Since you personally are not eating and drinking those alchemical products, then there is no life in you. By "life" here is meant the universal life force which pervades every living thing.
Double-speak. How can one have it and not have it? I realize, unlike you, that there is a point you are trying to make behind the dichotomy, but you are saying it haphazardly. There is a little truth in myth, but it shouldn't be adopted without scrutiny. You are one of only hundreds that ties these ideas.
You exist and live because that life force is in you, but you don't have sufficient quantity of it to be able to maintain your human form and hence that form will perish far far far earlier than it should. You'll be lucky to live 90 years as a human when your own Bible tells you clearly that people can and should be living life spans of 900 years and more.
You missed a couple of crucial verses that explain why this doesn't happen.
And again you're engaging is self-delusion and denial. When you die here on Earth you will be separated from your body. Simple as. That physical body will be dead. Rotting in the ground or cremated. What remains of you at that point is not physical in any sense. You will be spirit, soul.
Yes, but right now you are
not separated!
On this basis there are no eyes to see and weep with, no teeth to gnash with.
1) You never read of new bodies? 2) Your conscious doesn't gnash teeth? Where do you think the idea comes from to do it physically? I'm not wanting to go far down this rabbit hole, but 'dismissive' isn't intellectual.
The Bible passage is therefore nothing more than baseless and oppressive scaremongering. You're choosing again to ignore and compartmentalise those parts of the text which are uncomfortable and which don't support the narratives you've been told to accept.
That is wholly a jump in reasoning one from the other! It doesn't follow. "It can't happen so I can dismiss it all."
lain:
Ah so you're one of those "Pick n Mix" Christians. You take to heart parts of the Bible text that you like and are happy with and disregard that which is uncomfortable and disagreeable. You're not alone. The world is rife with Pick n Mix Christians, all equally deluding themselves. The OT describes the god you are choosing to believe in and worship. It can not be ignored.
Not quite. I read the book itself that tells me which is which. You were in a church that told you without internal inspection, that it was all for you in direct application. Such is haphazard and without discernment. Not everybody, even among the teachers have read their Bible a number of times. Not all of them pick up on verses that explain, but they are right there in the book. It is a big book so requires scrutiny and paying attention. It is an instructive book. Only getting a little bit would be like trying to build a 727 and mix up the electronics for the cabin with the engine function. If building an airplane calls for me to Pick n Mix a cabin from its engine, so be it.
It's "good" from a human perspective and humans are what we are. Helping each other is a good thing. Universally it's immaterial, but as humans it's the humane thing to do and requires nothing but love and compassion for your fellow man.
Now think why that should be part of your make-up. It is reasonable to think perhaps "purpose/intent."
Speculative I'm afraid. Something might have created or designed a much earlier version of human life but over the passage of time that has changed. See the discussion I've been having with RD elsewhere. The human genome is made up of 50% Mobile Genetic Elements which give rise to mutations. So it looks likely that we were created with the specific ability to mutate, evolve, change and adapt.
Good. You've entertained that it'd be likely we were created for something.
As for what created the initial design, if such a creator exists there are many options which we've already covered.
And it is not at all unreasonable, even by your own words, that we were made by One with the same qualities. You are halfway there, albeit if you lost the other half along the way....
All life forms have attributes that are an exception to all of creation. Most animals have far superior smell sense. Spiders can exude spider web material. Cheetahs can run 70mph. You really have no idea whatsoever how unique many life forms are and what they can and cann not do.
How do you know I'm not a zoologist? Why the condescension?
You ave no idea for example if any given animal can communicate to its fellows using telepathy. You just assume, as most arrogant humans do, that you are top dog, the most advanced life form there is, and that's pure folly.
Again, why the condescension?
It's certainly a possibility but yet again that's no proof in any way of a supreme god.
Not for you, of course, but you've already admitted it isn't unreasonable, and that is proof enough to start.
It's just an indicator of life forms that are more advanced than we are. It would be ridiculous to think humans are the only sentient life forms in the galaxy or indeed wider universe. There will be "engineers" all over the universe busily messing with genetics and creating myriads of life forms.
No, not ridiculous to believe we are alone in the universe. That's an overstatement. You can intimate as anyone, what may exist but we are all in the dark as present. However, all this jumping the gun way down the road. All of this began and it is reasonable to see intelligence begetting intelligence. Your possibilities in themselves already allow that we are created by an intelligent Creator, it is simply moving the goal post. "And where did they come from?" will allow you to go where you need to end up. The rest is distraction of 'the rest.'
Nope that's a stretch. It would be perfectly feasible for a well advanced civilisation to design primitive humans and to seed them on Earth and then disappear to leave humanity to mulitply and develop. Perhaps as a casual genetic experiment. Perhaps to go off and do the same to numerous other planets.
Again, jumping into the middle without dealing with the first chapter. It is a distraction unnecessary from the main one.
Au contrair I sought and found. The Bible is in no small part allegorical not literal. It interchanges terms from being literal and allegorical. The term Christ is an example. If you are able to step back and stop apologising and making excuses for parts of the Bible that clearly make no sense and then start earnestly seeking for the truth, then you will find it after much searching. Until you see and understand the allegorical secrets in the text you are blind.
Two worldviews. One of them is, by elimination, wrong. Entertain it may be you. I've interacted, I'm way down the road away from believing mine is somehow wrong. Do I have it all right? I'm just a creation. Mine is closer to a Creator.
So, just for giggles, what percentage of the worlds Christian population do you think are true Christians that will be saved in your ideology?
No idea. I'm just glad you see the holes in your own postulations.
Given there are many millions of hopeful Christians all participating in the same self-delusions just how many do you suppose are true?
I highlight again the Bible passage that states "the way is hard, the path narrow and few there are that find it".
That passage alone should be a stark warning to all so-called Christians. Countless millions is clearly not "few" so something is very badly off.
"Not all Israel is Israel." Further, the 'narrow road' was for Jews and it is true even today few come to Messiah. You said you were taught poorly, why didn't you question the rest of what you took as true and may well not be as well? Wouldn't it make more sense to say "Christianity as I was taught was wrong." No wonder you'd eschew all of it if you take what is wrong and keep it, and toss what is 'right' away?
Well, given I believe he was an alchemist and has the Stone and gave the secret of the Stone to his disciples only, I find it rather heartless that he kept such a useful and wondroous thing from wider humanity and instead just kept it for himself and his mates, thereby making himself look like a wondrous being. It's like keeping the secret of fire to yourself and going around lighting people's fireplaces instead of teaching everyone how to make and use fire which would be advantageous to all.
:doh: :headslap: You have a made-up story none of the rest of us believe and use that as an example? 1) Probably keep alchemy and stones to yourself. No matter how convinced you are, you look unhinged for the audacious and everybody (not just Christians) are going to view you as not-all-there. It doesn't matter how hard you believe it, it makes you look like you are not dealing with a full deck. 2) It is of the most obscure substance that even you cannot really think that this is something to hold against Jesus. Granted you've bought into the myth that Jesus was married, but I asked for a Biblical example of Jesus not measuring up. Once somebody believes you are incapable of dealing with reality, you'll forever be relegated to dismissal. You should keep all obscure thoughts to yourself and deal with what is more readily available on the table, else you lose an incredible amount of credibility for intelligent conversation. Aliens, the earth is flat, life seeding just isn't part of reasoned conversation.
