Yep and....yep!
ECT Acts realism vs MAD theoretics: Acts 16:3
- Thread starter Interplanner
- Start date
Yep and....yep!
Yes.
Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
Act 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
Act 15:3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
Act 15:4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
Act 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
LA
Right Divider
Body part
:rotfl:
The irony is thick with you.
Interplanner
Well-known member
It was not about other apostles.
The events in Galatians and its' writing took place before the event of Acts 15.
Gal 2:6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person
for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me: Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles
Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Where are the verses stating Paul taught or corrected the Apostles,
as if Paul had something new which the apostles did not?
Paul was saved under the Gospel first delivered to the saints, and Barnabus was in Christ before him.
Act 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Gal 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again
2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations
Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
SimpleMan77
New member
Acts realism vs MAD theoretics: Acts 16:3
Yep - by revelation God made known the mystery to Paul, and when his gospel was challenged that it wasn't right, he went up to Jerusalem to check with the ones Jesus left in charge (the ones John referred to when he said "he that is of God heareth us").
Would you know it, what Jesus told him agreed perfectly with what Jesus had told them. Imagine that - Jesus revealing the Gospel to two different parties and it being not one iota different... I guess truth is truth.
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Yep - by revelation God made known the mystery to Paul, and when his gospel was challenged that it wasn't right, he went up to Jerusalem to check with the ones Jesus left in charge (the ones John referred to when he said "he that is of God heareth us").
Would you know it, what Jesus told him agreed perfectly with what Jesus had told them. Imagine that - Jesus revealing the Gospel to two different parties and it being not one iota different... I guess truth is truth.
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I've heard that interpretation many times before.
I don't agree with the idea that Paul went up to get approval.
He had his commission directly from the Lord.
He had no reason to doubt it.
SimpleMan77
New member
He was challenged by Pharisee Christians, and realized that Jesus had told Peter "whatever you bind on earth is bound on Heaven". If the apostles didn't approve it was back to the starting line - his race would have been in vain.
Paul very much believed Satan could transform himself into an angel of light for the purpose of bringing a contaminated gospel. He was willing to lay everything he had learned on the line to make sure that his gospel aligned with theirs.
Obviously his revelation was perfect because it truly was from God.
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So...Paul preached something that he was unsure of for 14+ years before seeking approval from Peter and the rest. :dizzy:
SimpleMan77
New member
Nope, he was sure of it, but when challenged he knew that the way to put the challenge to rest was to get the official ruling from the Apostles. He had all confidence he was right, but in deference to their authority was willing to start over if they told him he was wrong.
Not really that hard to understand...
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Your interpretation is totally off.
Paul was not under the authority of the twelve.
His authority was directly from Christ, from heaven.
You interpret Paul's 'run in vain' as being the twelve's possible condemnation about the gospel that he preached.
I understand Paul's 'run' as being his then present trip to Jerusalem and his anticipation that if he wasn't able to contact Peter and the others directly and privately before being opposed by 'false brethren', that his trip(run) would have been in futility(vain)......not his gospel or his ministry being in vain.
Certainly, he did want to explain to them the gospel which he preached among the gentiles, for they had no revelation about it but only that which Peter learned in part in Acts 10, in preparation for Paul's ministry.
The twelve's commission was to begin at Jerusalem with the gospel of the Kingdom promised to Israel and it's accomplishment by the return of Israel's Messiah from heaven.
In lieu of the fact that Israel as a nation refused that gospel, Christ raised up Paul to preach the gospel of the grace of GOD to Jew and Gentile alike in this present dispenation.
You're partially correct about the twelve's authority. They had the authority to decide to agree with Paul that he should continue to go to the uncircumcision and that they would restrict their ministry to the circumcision, since Jerusalem and National Israel had not yet come to the feet of Messiah.
Paul testifies again and again that his ministry was by direct revelation from Christ. He did not need approval from the twelve.
He did wish to be at peace with them as they came to understand his mission which would affect the entire world, as national Israel was set on the shelf.
As were all of the apostles.
Act 1:1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
Act 1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
Act 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
False.
Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
The first of the church were all Jews, the 120 and--
Act 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
Act 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
Act 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
Act 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Act 2:9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
Act 2:10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
Act 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
The believers of Israel did come to the Messiah, multitudes of them.--
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Act 5:11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.
Act 5:12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.
Act 5:13 And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them.
Act 5:14 And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)
Act 5:15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.
Act 5:16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.
Only the elect believers in the Messiah are counted as the seed--
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
All unbelievers were cut off, not because they are set on the shelf by God but because they do not repent and believe.
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
Paul himself was a Jew and he so desired that his brothers of the flesh would be saved, and they continued to be in his own time.
LA
Nope, the eleven received their instructions from Christ on earth before Hs ascension.
Paul received his instruction from Christ in heaven.
Those verses prove my point. The eleven received their instruction between Christ's resurrection and ascension. Paul received his instruction after Christ's ascension to heaven.
Things that are different are not the same.
Nope...it's true.
That was Christ's commission to the eleven before His ascension.
Yep, proving my position again.
Acts 2 was the fulfillment of prophecy for Israel.
Christ's revelation to Paul was not, it was a mystery previously unrevealed.
Yep, all Jews and proselytes. Once again confirms my position.
Yep, and yet Peter pleads with 'Ye men of Israel' to repent so that the Lord would return from heaven to earth according to prophecy:
Act 3:12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel,
Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Again, through the commission of the twelve.
So what?
It was not Paul's commission.
Yep. So what? This is beside the point of the current argument.
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Yep. So, what? Beside the point.
SimpleMan77
New member
I'd like to hear an explanation of this.
IF Jesus led His disciples to believe that He had a plan to set up a "Kingdom of Heaven" - one where the nation of Israel accepted the Kingdom Message, but He knew all along that there was absolutely no way it was going to happen, doesn't that make Jesus a LIAR?
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But.....it is going to happen.
Those that deny what GOD said through the prophets are calling GOD a liar.
Why was their "no small dispute" over what Paul was teaching?
Acts 15
2 Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders, about this question.
3 So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through Phoenicia and Samaria, describing the conversion of the Gentiles; and they caused great joy to all the brethren. 4 And when they had come to Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders; and they reported all things that God had done with them. 5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”