ACTS 2 PENTECOST

turbosixx

New member
Why did Paul stop baptizing?
He didn't. We know he baptized believers on his 3rd journey. To the best of my memory we don't have any details of conversions after that but they are not needed, the precedent has been set. If baptism isn't part of the gospel that Paul received from Jesus, why would he pervert the gospel and baptize anyone?
 

turbosixx

New member
Greetings again turbosixx, I understand Matthew 16:28, 17:1-8 and 2 Peter 1:16-18 as being closely connected, and Peter speaks of the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to my understanding the Transfiguration is thus a vision of Christ in future glory.

Kind regards
Trevor

This is one thing I don't understand. Could you please give me your perspective. This future "earthly" kingdom is supposed to be for the Jews. Today Jews have a choice. They can reject the gospel and deny Christ or they can believe the gospel and become a Christian. If they do the latter, they cease being a Jew.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave[g] nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

When Jesus returns, He's going to punish those who do not obey the gospel.
7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
Wouldn't that include the non-believing Jews and only leave Christians who are neither Jew nor Greek?
 

Right Divider

Body part
True I am using as if there is one. So what do you understand Jesus to be talking about?
Please note that building the church is NOT the same thing as "starting" a church.

The church that Jesus was talking about building was already in existence on that day of Pentecost. Even the scripture says ADDED to in Acts 2.

The body of Christ is something different and began later.
 

turbosixx

New member
Please note that building the church is NOT the same thing as "starting" a church.
I agree.

The church that Jesus was talking about building was already in existence on that day of Pentecost. Even the scripture says ADDED to in Acts 2.
I agree again.

The body of Christ is something different and began later.
As you know I'm going to disagree here. Paul added people the exact same way Peter did, he baptized the believers. Paul preached Jesus to convert the lost.

Paul converts the Corinthians
Acts 18:8 Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord, together with his entire household. And many of the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and were baptized. 9
We see all he preached to them was Jesus.
1 Cor. 2:2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.

I don't see where he preached anything different in converting Christians. If you know of a passage I'm missing, please point it out.
 

Right Divider

Body part
I agree.

I agree again.
Cool.

As you know I'm going to disagree here. Paul added people the exact same way Peter did, he baptized the believers. Paul preached Jesus to convert the lost.

Paul converts the Corinthians
Acts 18:8 Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord, together with his entire household. And many of the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and were baptized. 9
We see all he preached to them was Jesus.
1 Cor. 2:2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.

I don't see where he preached anything different in converting Christians. If you know of a passage I'm missing, please point it out.
You are like Apollos in Acts 18 before he learned what Paul was teaching via Aquila and Priscilla. Paul never mentions water baptism after Acts 18 (AND in any of his epistles written after Acts 18). Give that some thought.

Also note that it is at about that time that Paul says that Christ sent him NOT to baptize.
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again turbosixx,
This is one thing I don't understand. Could you please give me your perspective. This future "earthly" kingdom is supposed to be for the Jews. Today Jews have a choice. They can reject the gospel and deny Christ or they can believe the gospel and become a Christian. If they do the latter, they cease being a Jew.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave[g] nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
The picture given in Isaiah 2:1-4 is of the kingdom established centred in Jerusalem, and the nations and individuals that survive Armageddon will come up to Jerusalem to worship and learn God’s ways. The same is repeated in Micah 4:1-8 with the added detail of the position of Israel as the first dominion of the Kingdom. Zechariah 14 also speak of the nations coming to Jerusalem to worship.
When Jesus returns, He's going to punish those who do not obey the gospel.
7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
Wouldn't that include the non-believing Jews and only leave Christians who are neither Jew nor Greek?
I suggest that this quotation that seems to speak in absolute terms must be balanced against the following
Acts 3:19-21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution (or restoration) of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began..
This speaks of times of refreshing and restoration. Yes, there will be judgements, but the overall effect will be the refreshing and restoration. Peter mentions “all the prophets”, and the above is a sample.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again Right Divider,
Cool. You are like Apollos in Acts 18 before he learned what Paul was teaching via Aquila and Priscilla. Paul never mentions water baptism after Acts 18 (AND in any of his epistles written after Acts 18). Give that some thought.
Also note that it is at about that time that Paul says that Christ sent him NOT to baptize.
You are taking 1 Corinthians 1:17 out of its context of party factions. Jesus did not say to him do NOT baptise. The letter to the Romans was written after Acts 18:
Romans 6:1-8 (KJV): 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Right Divider

Body part
Greetings again turbosixx, The picture given in Isaiah 2:1-4 is of the kingdom established centred in Jerusalem, and the nations and individuals that survive Armageddon will come up to Jerusalem to worship and learn God’s ways. The same is repeated in Micah 4:1-8 with the added detail of the position of Israel as the first dominion of the Kingdom. Zechariah 14 also speak of the nations coming to Jerusalem to worship.
Many other prophets also write about it:

Isa 60:16 KJV Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

Compare Isaiah 60 with Revelation 21.

Rev 21:24 KJV And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Rev 21:12-14 KJV And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: (13) On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. (14) And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

It could NOT be more clear that in the new Jerusalem, Israel is front and center.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Greetings again Right Divider, You are taking 1 Corinthians 1:17 out of its context of party factions. Jesus did not say to him do NOT baptise.
Just read it without your bias:

1Co 1:17 KJV For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

It simply could NOT be more clear and unambiguous.
 

turbosixx

New member
You are like Apollos in Acts 18 before he learned what Paul was teaching via Aquila and Priscilla.
You are right in that Apollos was lacking something. I'm curious what you believe Priscilla and Aquila taught Apollos.

Paul never mentions water baptism after Acts 18 (AND in any of his epistles written after Acts 18). Give that some thought.
Paul performs baptism in Acts 19 on his last missionary journey. Not only does he perform it, he will not lay hands on the men until after he has baptized them even though they were believers.

He does mention baptism in Colossians which is a prison epistle. It's not necessary for it to be continually mentioned because it's elementary and Paul is working toward the maturity of his listeners.


Also note that it is at about that time that Paul says that Christ sent him NOT to baptize.
We have recorded Paul baptizing believers till Acts 19, which is about 20 years after his conversion. What exactly do you think he means by "For Christ did not send me to baptize"?
 

turbosixx

New member
Greetings again turbosixx, The picture given in Isaiah 2:1-4 is of the kingdom established centred in Jerusalem, and the nations and individuals that survive Armageddon will come up to Jerusalem to worship and learn God’s ways. The same is repeated in Micah 4:1-8 with the added detail of the position of Israel as the first dominion of the Kingdom. Zechariah 14 also speak of the nations coming to Jerusalem to worship.
Greetings again
will come up to Jerusalem to worship and learn God’s ways
My question still stands. We have God's ways now. Will they change?
Luke 24:47 and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
Salvation began at Jerusalem and is from the Jews (Apostles)


I suggest that this quotation that seems to speak in absolute terms must be balanced against the following
Acts 3:19-21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution (or restoration) of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began..
This speaks of times of refreshing and restoration. Yes, there will be judgements, but the overall effect will be the refreshing and restoration. Peter mentions “all the prophets”, and the above is a sample.

Kind regards
Trevor
Continuing with the context we see that "all the prophets" were speaking of the days when Peter was proclaiming the gospel.
Acts 3:22 Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.’ 24 And all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and those who came after him, also proclaimed these days.

How were the people to be converted??
 

Right Divider

Body part
You are right in that Apollos was lacking something. I'm curious what you believe Priscilla and Aquila taught Apollos.
"expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly"

It was clear that Apollos only knew what had happened up through John the B. Paul was given abundant revelations. THAT is the "way of God more perfectly".

Paul performs baptism in Acts 19 on his last missionary journey. Not only does he perform it, he will not lay hands on the men until after he has baptized them even though they were believers.
Paul did NOT "re-baptized" those people. Paul was describing what John the B was doing.

Act 19:4-5 KJV Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. (5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

The THEY in Acts 19:5 are the same ones as Acts 19:4 that John the B was preaching to and baptizing and NOT those that Paul was talking to.

He does mention baptism in Colossians which is a prison epistle. It's not necessary for it to be continually mentioned because it's elementary and Paul is working toward the maturity of his listeners.
Paul never commands water baptism in any of his epistles.

We have recorded Paul baptizing believers till Acts 19, which is about 20 years after his conversion.
NOPE... read above.

What exactly do you think he means by "For Christ did not send me to baptize"?
It actually says "For Christ sent me not to baptize" and NOT that Christ did not send him to baptize.

Those have two different meanings

Paul did NOT receive ALL of the abundance of revelations that he received from the LORD at one time. He received instruction throughout his ministry.
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again Right Divider,
Just read it without your bias:
1Co 1:17 KJV For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
It simply could NOT be more clear and unambiguous.
But you are reading this that Jesus directly instructed Paul that baptism was no longer necessary, and that Paul was not to preach baptism, and that somehow Paul now preached another gospel. If you believe that the Galatians were part of his 1st preaching tour, and there is a good case for this, refer Ramsay, then Paul would come under his own curse Galatians 1:8-9.

The Colossians were part of the 3rd preaching tour, and yet Paul still sees the importance of baptism:
Colossians 2:11-12 (KJV): 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again turbosixx,
will come up to Jerusalem to worship and learn God’s ways
My question still stands. We have God's ways now. Will they change?
Luke 24:47 and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
Salvation began at Jerusalem and is from the Jews (Apostles)
God’s ways are constant throughout all ages, but Isaiah 2:1-4 is still future, when Christ returns.
Continuing with the context we see that "all the prophets" were speaking of the days when Peter was proclaiming the gospel.
Acts 3:22 Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.’ 24 And all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and those who came after him, also proclaimed these days.
How were the people to be converted??
The days when Peter and the Apostles preached were important, but Acts 3:9-21 speak of the return of Jesus, who is now in heaven, see also Acts 1:11. People are converted when they have an affectionate belief of the One Gospel, the same Gospel from Eden till now.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

turbosixx

New member
"expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly"

It was clear that Apollos only knew what had happened up through John the B. Paul was given abundant revelations. THAT is the "way of God more perfectly".
I disagree based on what the passage says, Apollos knew accurately everything concerning Jesus with one exception, baptism.
Acts 18:25 He had been instructed in the way of the Lord. And being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things concerning Jesus, though he knew only the baptism of John.

Paul did NOT "re-baptized" those people. Paul was describing what John the B was doing.

Act 19:4-5 KJV Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. (5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

The THEY in Acts 19:5 are the same ones as Acts 19:4 that John the B was preaching to and baptizing and NOT those that Paul was talking to.
I suggest to you the THEY are the men Apollos taught in the previous verses. Paul doesn't question they are believers, he ONLY questions their baptism which Apollos was confused on.

Being baptized in the name of Jesus is water baptism, this passage makes it perfectly clear.
Acts 10:47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
Do you know of any scripture that says baptized "in the name of" that indicates otherwise?

It actually says "For Christ sent me not to baptize" and NOT that Christ did not send him to baptize.

Those have two different meanings
It's the same meaning. If it said "Christ sent me to not baptize" then I would agree they are different.
If baptism was not part of the gospel then we would have Paul making an argument against it just like he did circumcision. It's clear from the context that Paul is not making a case that baptism should not be performed and is not part of the gospel but a case for unity.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Greetings again Right Divider, But you are reading this that Jesus directly instructed Paul that baptism was no longer necessary, and that Paul was not to preach baptism, and that somehow Paul now preached another gospel. If you believe that the Galatians were part of his 1st preaching tour, and there is a good case for this, refer Ramsay, then Paul would come under his own curse Galatians 1:8-9.

The Colossians were part of the 3rd preaching tour, and yet Paul still sees the importance of baptism:
Colossians 2:11-12 (KJV): 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Kind regards
Trevor
Colossians 2 is NOT talking about WATER baptism. You just cannot read baptism without reading WATER baptism.

Mat 20:22-23 KJV But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. (23) And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
 

Right Divider

Body part
I disagree based on what the passage says, Apollos knew accurately everything concerning Jesus with one exception, baptism.
Acts 18:25 He had been instructed in the way of the Lord. And being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things concerning Jesus, though he knew only the baptism of John.

I suggest to you the THEY are the men Apollos taught in the previous verses. Paul doesn't question they are believers, he ONLY questions their baptism which Apollos was confused on.

Being baptized in the name of Jesus is water baptism, this passage makes it perfectly clear.
Acts 10:47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
Do you know of any scripture that says baptized "in the name of" that indicates otherwise?

It's the same meaning. If it said "Christ sent me to not baptize" then I would agree they are different.
If baptism was not part of the gospel then we would have Paul making an argument against it just like he did circumcision. It's clear from the context that Paul is not making a case that baptism should not be performed and is not part of the gospel but a case for unity.

You're back to being completely deaf. I will not waste any more time on you.
 

turbosixx

New member
People are converted when they have an affectionate belief of the One Gospel, the same Gospel from Eden till now.

Kind regards
Trevor

I would suggest to you it is not the same gospel from Eden till now.

In Hebrews we see that all those faithful who came before did not receive what we are able to receive, the promise.
Heb. 11:39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

John began the gospel of Jesus by baptizing people.
Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
2 As it is written in Isaiah the prophet,
“Behold, I send my messenger before your face,
who will prepare your way,
3 the voice of one crying in the wilderness:
‘Prepare the way of the Lord,
make his paths straight,’”
4 John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.


Those who Peter preached to were instructed on how to be converted (turn back to God). Repent and be baptized.
Acts 2:41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
In your understanding, what were these Jews who believed added to?
 

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2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Those listed in Acts 1:13-14 were of one accord and were assembled together in Jerusalem.
2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
The Jews and proselytes in the city investigated what was going on.
2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
The apostles, filled with the Holy Ghost, began to speak in tongues.
2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
Speaking in tongues, as can clearly be seen above in verses 8 and 11, involves the ability given the apostles to speak and be heard in a specific language, not of their own. It was a sign given them to substantiate their ministry.
Peter, standing with the eleven, spoke.
2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Pentecost and the filling of the Holy Host was prophesied by Joel. This was a fulfillment of prophecy in Joel 2.
2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
In the above verses it should be noted that Peter was not addressing the newly formed church, the Body of Christ, but rather, Israel only. Peter preached Jesus as Christ and his resurrection. The resurrection of Jesus Christ would establish the future promise of His Kingdom on earth. This promised Kingdom would put him on the throne of David; enable Israel to reign and rule with him over the nations; and be a light of salvation to the Gentiles, thru the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Peter, in the above verses, states that Jesus is both Lord and Christ. Jesus rose from the dead, showing his diety, that he is the Son of God.
In verse 38 below, Peter shows that Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah, the Saviour of Israel, who alone can forgive the sins of the nation of Israel.

2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.
Peter is only offering the above promises of remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost to Israel and those Gentiles who would come to God thru Israel.

2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
The believers were baptized according to the Israel program of recognition of the name; the authority; and the idenity of Jesus. They were added to them, the church of the Kingdom to come, not the Body of Christ.

2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
They sold all they had and provided to all according to the commandment to Israel by Jesus in Matthew 13:46 and 19:21.

2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
They were in one accord as well. The church here is not the Body of Christ. The church here are the believers in Christ who were promised entrance into the Kingdom on earth. The kingdom which is postponed and interrupted by our Dispensation of Grace.

Luke 1:15
For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord,
and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink;
and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost,
even from his mother's womb.

Luke 1:41
And it came to pass, that,
when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary,
the babe leaped in her womb;
and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

Luke 1:67
And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost,
and prophesied, saying,
 
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