ACTS 2 PENTECOST

turbosixx

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Israel were the Kingdom of God, but the nation was soon to be destroyed in AD70.
This reply doesn't address the kingdom being given to another nation.
Matt.. 21:43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.


The following indicates that the preaching would go to the Gentiles at a time when Israel failed to respond.
Isaiah 49:3–6 (KJV): 3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified. 4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God. 5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength. 6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. .
Kind regards
Trevor

So what did Israel fail to respond to? The kingdom message?


I suggest that the kingdom prophesied in the OT is the church. The OT writers used language they could understand to help them see how great the church is going to be. Like Jesus did with Nicodemus.
Jn. 3:12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

Is Jesus teaching Nicodemus about the "earthly" kingdom, because Nicodemus is a Jew, or is he speaking of the church?
Jn. 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Jn. 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
 

Right Divider

Body part
This reply doesn't address the kingdom being given to another nation.
Matt.. 21:43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.

So what did Israel fail to respond to? The kingdom message?

I suggest that the kingdom prophesied in the OT is the church. The OT writers used language they could understand to help them see how great the church is going to be. Like Jesus did with Nicodemus.
Jn. 3:12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

Is Jesus teaching Nicodemus about the "earthly" kingdom, because Nicodemus is a Jew, or is he speaking of the church?
Jn. 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Jn. 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
You are terribly lacking in knowledge of the law and the prophets.

The 12 apostles were not lacking this knowledge when the asked the Lord about the time of the restoration of the kingdom to Israel.
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again turbosixx,
This reply doesn't address the kingdom being given to another nation.
Matt.. 21:43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.
The word “nation” does not necessarily mean a specific nation as we understand this word today.
So what did Israel fail to respond to? The kingdom message?
They rejected both Jesus and his message, the One Gospel, and crucified him.
I suggest that the kingdom prophesied in the OT is the church. The OT writers used language they could understand to help them see how great the church is going to be. Like Jesus did with Nicodemus.
Jn. 3:12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
Is Jesus teaching Nicodemus about the "earthly" kingdom, because Nicodemus is a Jew, or is he speaking of the church?
Jn. 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Jn. 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
You still have not answered Daniel 2:44 and 2 Timothy 4:1 which defines the Kingdom as future. The vision of the Transfiguration also was a preview of Jesus in glory in the future Kingdom.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

steko

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LIFETIME MEMBER
Hint, hint, hint!

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Jer 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
Jer 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
Jer 31:37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.


Do the moon, the stars and the sun still shine?

Well... do they?
 

Tambora

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Hint, hint, hint!

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Jer 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
Jer 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
Jer 31:37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.


Do the moon, the stars and the sun still shine?

Well... do they?
Yes, yes they do.
 

turbosixx

New member
You are terribly lacking in knowledge of the law and the prophets.

The 12 apostles were not lacking this knowledge when the asked the Lord about the time of the restoration of the kingdom to Israel.

I'm definitely not even close to where I need to be on the OT.

In your understanding, where/when did the apostles offer the kingdom to Israel?
 

turbosixx

New member
Greetings again turbosixx, The word “nation” does not necessarily mean a specific nation as we understand this word today.
I totally agree.

They rejected both Jesus and his message, the One Gospel, and crucified him.
Yep. Did they reject the kingdom? If so, when/where?

You still have not answered Daniel 2:44 and 2 Timothy 4:1 which defines the Kingdom as future. The vision of the Transfiguration also was a preview of Jesus in glory in the future Kingdom.

Kind regards
Trevor

Sorry, I thought I had. Daniel 2 is talking about the time of the 4th kingdom. 40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
We know the 4th kingdom is the Roman empire.
Verse 44And in the days of these kings
Jesus appeared during the 4th kingdom as Daniel prophesied.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Jesus appeared during the time of the Roman empire and said the kingdom was at hand and said that there were people there who would not die before it's establishment.
Mark 9:1 And he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power.”


2 Tim.4:1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom:
Judge the living and the dead by his kingdom. We the church judge the world and angels.
1 Cor. 6:2 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life!

It is my current understanding that when Jesus returns it's game over and that is when he turns the kingdom/church over to God.
1 Cor. 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

We are in Christ's kingdom now.
Col. 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
 

Right Divider

Body part
I'm definitely not even close to where I need to be on the OT.

In your understanding, where/when did the apostles offer the kingdom to Israel?
The coming of the kingdom follows exactly what all of the prophets of Israel said throughout their writings. This continued with the Lord's earthly ministry and then with the 12 through the early chapters of the book of Acts.

If you're looking for one particular place where there is an explicit "here is your chance to accept the kingdom", you're not going to find it.

I would highly recommend reading the entire book of Joel, which Peter quotes from in Acts 2, especially chapter 2 from which Peter quotes.
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again turbosixx,
I totally agree.
Where we differ is that you would claim that this is the Church, but I believe it is speaking of the opening of the Gospel to the Gentiles.
Yep. Did they reject the kingdom? If so, when/where?
They rejected Jesus, who was and is the embodiment of the Kingdom.
Sorry, I thought I had. Daniel 2 is talking about the time of the 4th kingdom. 40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
We know the 4th kingdom is the Roman empire.
Verse 44And in the days of these kings
Jesus appeared during the 4th kingdom as Daniel prophesied.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Jesus appeared during the iron phase of the Fourth Kingdom, but Jesus destroys the kingdoms of men during the iron and clay period, and he destroys the image at this time and establishes the Kingdom of God. The kingdoms of men still exist.
Jesus appeared during the time of the Roman empire and said the kingdom was at hand and said that there were people there who would not die before it's establishment.
Mark 9:1 And he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power.”
This is speaking of the transfiguration, and was a vision of Jesus, Moses and Elijah in glory in the Kingdom. Peter tells us that the transfiguration was a sure proof that Jesus will return in glory to establish the Kingdom:
2 Peter 1:16–18 (KJV): 16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. .
2 Tim.4:1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom:
Judge the living and the dead by his kingdom. We the church judge the world and angels.
1 Cor. 6:2 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life!
I believe that the return of Jesus, the day of judgement and the establishment of the Kingdom is still future.
It is my current understanding that when Jesus returns it's game over and that is when he turns the kingdom/church over to God.
1 Cor. 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
The above includes the 1000 years, the end is at the end of the 1000 years.
We are in Christ's kingdom now.
Col. 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
This is only in an incipient sense. The Kingdom is the 1000 years.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

steko

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LIFETIME MEMBER
Yes there is quite a lot to this and appreciate your reply. I would like to respond to several of your comments but in an effort to keep it shorter I would like to address these.

He halted the prophetic program for Israel and transistionally began to start something new... 'the gospel of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery' revealed to and thru Paul for the nations
All of Paul's letters open with 'Grace and peace from GOD our father and the Lord Jesus Christ'

Yes, Paul's letters open with grace because they are ALL written to Christians. People who had already been converted to Christ. How was what Paul preached to convert people to Christ different than what Peter proclaimed on Pentecost?

According to prophecy concerning the nation of Israel, after the fulfillment of Psa 2:2 in Act 4:26, GOD's response was to be:

Psa 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
Psa 2:5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.


Neither did the complete fulfillment of what Peter quoted at Pentecost take place... Act 2:19 and Act 2:20.

In GOD's mercy, 'Day of the LORD' as spoken by Joel was put on hold and a new program was instituted. By the way, this new program was not new to GOD but had been hid in GOD since the foundation of the world.
Israel, according to the prophets was to be GOD's agency of blessing to the nations/gentiles. By rejecting their Messiah and Davidic King, they failed to be that agency. In spite of Israel's obstinacy , GOD chose to bless the nations thru the ministry of the Apostle of the Gentiles/nations, the Apostle Paul. Peter gives a bonafide offer of the prophesied Kingdom to Israel in Acts 3. Paul never makes an offer of the Kingdom to Israel but instead offers justification to individuals from all nations thru faith in Christ's finished work on the cross. The Day of the LORD with the wrath of GOD has been put on hold for a future fulfillment along with the restoration of the Davidic Kingdom to Israel.

The difference in Peter and Paul's ministries is that Peter preached according to prophecy for Israel regarding the Davidic Kingdom.... 'the Apostle's doctrine' which they learned from Christ's earthly ministry to Israel.
Paul preached new revelations which were given to him from the ascended, glorified Lord Jesus from heaven concerning the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the mystery.

Peter preached to Israel on the feast day of Shavuot/Pentecost with regard to Christ being raised to sit on David's throne according to prophecy.
Paul preached to the nations with regard to Christ being raised for everyone's justification according to the mystery.
 
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steko

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Greetings again turbosixx, The word “nation” does not necessarily mean a specific nation as we understand this word today.
They rejected both Jesus and his message, the One Gospel, and crucified him.

I disagree with both you and [MENTION=16603]turbosixx[/MENTION] on this.
The word 'a nation/ethnei' is singular in Mat 21:43, not 'nations/ethnos'.
It means exactly what it says, 'a nation'.

In Mt 21 Christ rides the donkey into Jerusalem fulfilling Zech 9's prophecy of Israel's promised King and fulfilling partially Ps 118.
After He cleanses the Temple, He heals the blind and the lame whereby the crowd cries 'Hoshiana, ben Daveed' also in fulfillment of Ps 118.
He then rebukes the Scribes and Pharisees for their complaints and retires to Bethany.
The next day He curses the fig tree which is symbolic of the Scribes, Priests and Phariseedic religious rule and says, "Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever."
Then He challenges the disbelief of the chief priests and elders concerning the authority given to John the Baptist.

Then, He puts forth a parable to these rulers regarding the vineyard, which represents Israel according to Isa 5:7, with the husbandmen representing the chief priests, scribes and Pharisees and says that the vineyard will be taken from them and given to other husbandmen who will bring forth the fruit thereof to the owner[GOD] of the vineyard. In the meantime, the first husbandmen kill GOD's Son.

So, we find from the parable that the vineyard[nation] remains the same. It's the vineyard managers[rulers] who are replaced.

So, the builders[Israel's religious ruler] reject the stone[Christ] in fulfillment of prophecy and the Kingdom[Messiah's Davidic] is given to a generation of the same nation[Israel] who become rulers of the Kingdom promised to Israel thoughout all prophecy.

Twelve Apostles are promised rulership over the restored Kingdom to Israel in the regeneration according to:

Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


Christ plainly promises that GOD intends to give the Messianic Kingdom to Christ's 'little flock/the twelve' in Luke 12:32.

Luk 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

The rulers from which the kingdom is taken are the religious rulers of Israel during the earthly ministry of Christ.
'The nation' to which the kingdom is to be given is the same nation... Israel over which there will be trustworthy caretakers, the Apostles with Mathias replacing Judas in Acts 1.

The Davidic Kingdom promised to Israel through out prophecy has not morphed into something else allegorically to mean the the Church, the BOC, but still remains GOD's irrevocable promise to Israel with the twelve tribes restored back to the land under Israel's Messiah, Jesus.

There's a different program for 'the nations'[plural] according to the mystery revealed to and thru the Apostle Paul.
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings steko,
I disagree. Twelve Apostles are promised rulership over the restored Kingdom to Israel in the regeneration according to:
Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
I will comment on the above portion and avoid the earlier comments as I need to have a proper look at “nation”. I agree with your comment above that the Twelve Apostles will rule over the restored Kingdom to Israel in the regeneration, as long as you confirm that this is speaking of the remnant mortal population who survive Armageddon at the return of Jesus. I somehow feel that you may be suggesting that these subjects to the Apostles will have been raised from the dead. I assume that you accept that Jesus will reign over the whole earth, and thus also the remnant mortal populations of all the other nations will be subjected to His rule during the 1000 years.
The Davidic Kingdom promised to Israel through out prophecy has not morphed into something else allegorically to mean the the Church, the BOC, but still remains GOD's irrevocable promise to Israel with the twelve tribes restored back to the land under Israel's Messiah, Jesus.
I agree, that the promises to David will be fulfilled in Christ and the restoration of Israel. Not sure what BOC represents.
There's a different program for 'the nations'[plural] according to the mystery revealed to and thru the Apostle Paul.
This is where we part company, as I believe in the One Gospel of the Kingdom and the Name Acts 8:5-6,12.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

turbosixx

New member
The coming of the kingdom follows exactly what all of the prophets of Israel said throughout their writings. This continued with the Lord's earthly ministry and then with the 12 through the early chapters of the book of Acts.

If you're looking for one particular place where there is an explicit "here is your chance to accept the kingdom", you're not going to find it.
It doesn't have to be that kind of wording but I don't even see a hint of this "earthly" kingdom. That's all I'm asking for. Jesus's describes the kingdom many times and when I look at what he and the apostles proclaim, I don't see an earthly kingdom, I see the church.

I would highly recommend reading the entire book of Joel, which Peter quotes from in Acts 2, especially chapter 2 from which Peter quotes.


I will read through Joel.
I understand Peter says what Joel prophesied is what they saw on Pentecost, the out pouring of the Spirit.

Jesus said But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Peter also says in Acts 3:24 And all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and those who came after him, also proclaimed these days.
 

turbosixx

New member
Peter gives a bonafide offer of the prophesied Kingdom to Israel in Acts 3.
What were they to do to accept the kingdom?


Peter preached to Israel on the feast day of Shavuot/Pentecost with regard to Christ being raised to sit on David's throne according to prophecy.
Paul preached to the nations with regard to Christ being raised for everyone's justification according to the mystery.
In Acts 2 Peter preached Jesus to the Jews, this was something new. The gospel was always to the Jews first. The Jews were the ones who were looking for the Messiah.

It's my understanding that Paul converted Christians by preaching the same thing, Jesus.
Acts 16:31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house.
1 Cor. 2:2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.

The gospel was always intended to be for the Gentiles also but I don't see Paul converting people proclaiming anything different than what Peter did.
 

JudgeRightly

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What were they to do to accept the kingdom?



In Acts 2 Peter preached Jesus to the Jews, this was something new.

Where did Peter preach Christ's resurrection? (not just "Jesus")

The gospel was always to the Jews first. The Jews were the ones who were looking for the Messiah.

It's my understanding that Paul converted Christians by preaching the same thing, Jesus.
Acts 16:31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house.
1 Cor. 2:2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.

The gospel was always intended to be for the Gentiles also but I don't see Paul converting people proclaiming anything different than what Peter did.
 

steko

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What were they to do to accept the kingdom?





Act 3:12 ....... Ye men of Israel ..............

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
 

Right Divider

Body part
It doesn't have to be that kind of wording but I don't even see a hint of this "earthly" kingdom.
Once again, that is due to your ignorance of the vast number of prophecies regarding the kingdom.

That's all I'm asking for. Jesus's describes the kingdom many times and when I look at what he and the apostles proclaim, I don't see an earthly kingdom, I see the church.
That's just wrong.

I will read through Joel.
I understand Peter says what Joel prophesied is what they saw on Pentecost, the out pouring of the Spirit.

Jesus said But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
This refers to the KING of the coming kingdom being right in front of them.

Peter also says in Acts 3:24 And all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and those who came after him, also proclaimed these days.
And?

Read all of Joel chapter 2.
 

turbosixx

New member
Greetings again turbosixx, Where we differ is that you would claim that this is the Church, but I believe it is speaking of the opening of the Gospel to the Gentiles.
The gospel added the Gentiles and Jews into one body, Eph. 2:11-22.

They rejected Jesus, who was and is the embodiment of the Kingdom.
Jesus proclaimed His DBR and that the kingdom was at hand. I understand that His DBR established His church/kingdom. What do you make of Him proclaiming both?

Jesus appeared during the iron phase of the Fourth Kingdom, but Jesus destroys the kingdoms of men during the iron and clay period, and he destroys the image at this time and establishes the Kingdom of God. The kingdoms of men still exist.
I suggest it's spiritual and not physical.
Eph. 1:20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.

Jesus said His kingdom was not of this world.


This is speaking of the transfiguration, and was a vision of Jesus, Moses and Elijah in glory in the Kingdom. Peter tells us that the transfiguration was a sure proof that Jesus will return in glory to establish the Kingdom:
2 Peter 1:16–18 (KJV): 16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. .

Jesus said the kingdom was at hand and if Peter saw it come with power then how was it not established? In that verse you quoted Peter said they were "eyewitnesses", that happened then.

This is only in an incipient sense. The Kingdom is the 1000 years.
So Paul is wrong and we are not transferred to Christ's kingdom? I suggest that 1,000 years is figurative.
 
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