ECT According to Paul he was not the only one that preached the MYSTERY.
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He paid for the sins of others, not His own sins.
So where in the law is it permissible for a righteous one to offer a sacrifice on behalf of an unrighteous one?
Christ was put to death according to... and under...the Law.
The following passages are off the top of my head, so forgive their seeming disjointedness; but they should bring out their point as to your above question, nevertheless.
Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
Hebrews 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
It is why we are not under the Law...
Galatians 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
No offense taken, none intended.
Still, do yourself a favor. Sit down to Genesis chapter one and count out not only the things that differ from one another, but their sub-categories.
And that's just in one chapter...
As for the distinctions within Dispensationalism and its sub-groups within its three basic groups - you'll find that is the case in the Other Major school of thought: The Reformed.
Contrast BETWEEN things that DIFFER is ONLY ONE of the MANY things that DIFFER in MANY DIFFERENT areas of life.
Speaking of NECESSARY distinctions between things - again, no offense taken, none intended
Right Divider
Body part
I agree. That's why people need to be clear about what they mean.
I'm totally in agreement.
lifeisgood
New member
The Cross of Christ is a legal work.
Man owe a debt to God man could not and still cannot pay it matters not how much he/she tries. Yes? Yes.
Is this debt man owe to God legal or is just whatever?
When Jesus gave His Life on Calvary’s Cross, this paid that debt in totality, making it possible for Believers, upon the Merit of Christ, to enter boldly into the very Throne of Grace.
The Lord Jesus Christ is the source of all that we receive from God. The finished legal work on the Cross being the means. It is this means in which the Holy Spirit works; in other words, the death of Christ on the Cross was a legal work, hence, it affording justification by faith (Rom. 5:1).
The Holy Spirit works strictly within the legal parameters of this finished work. In fact, He works so strictly within these legal parameters of the Cross that His work is referred to as “the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 8:2).
The Cross of Christ was a legal work. It satisfied a legal debt that man legally owe God, but could not and cannot pay. When the Law was satisfied, which is by the Death of Christ, then the Holy Spirit could come into the heart and life of the Believer to reside permanently (I Cor. 3:16). He is the One Who has the Power. But it is the Cross of Christ that has made it all possible. Without the Cross of Christ the debt that man owe God is still in force and man has no right (any right) to enter into God's presence.
Justification is pure and simple, a legal work. Men owed a debt to God he could not/cannot hope to pay. In fact, it was, and is, impossible! But that debt was and is a legal debt. So, the price that Jesus paid at Calvary’s Cross, was accepted by God as legal payment for that which we owe God, thereby, meaning that the Work of Christ on the Cross was a legal work as well!
Interplanner
Well-known member
Maybe the reader would be helped if 'bookkeeping' terminology was used? Debt, credit, transfer, impute, credit as a verb, etc. Reconcile in 2 Cor 5 makes more sense as a bookkeeping term, not as a friendship issue.
lifeisgood
New member
Christ Jesus was not tried and executed (yeah, I know physically He was). He gave Himself. He put Himself in our place.
I owe God. I cannot pay my debt.
Is this debt I owe God legal? Yes.
Can God call upon the Court of Heaven and demand that I pay what I owe Him? Yes.
Why? Because what I owe God is a legal debt a written code.
Did God call upon me paying? Yes. Could I? No.
However, Christ Jesus did pay in my name.
It is like the Old Testament concept, which was referred to as ‘the double’ or ‘possessing the double.’
Was it legal? Yes. When the benefactor signed his name on the parchment where all the debt of a particular person was written, no one could see the debt owed for the benefactor had doubled the parchment over. All people could see was the name of the benefactor.
‘Blotting out the handwriting of Ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His Cross’ (Col. 2:14).
This Verse vividly describes the attendant circumstances of forgiveness in Christ.
One is the cancellation of ‘the written code. . . that was against us.’
Was this 'written code' legal? Yes.
When Jesus died on the Cross, He, in effect, took the written code that was against us.
He doubled it over and nailed it to His Cross.
He then wrote His Name, so to speak, across the doubled over written code and wrote in Blood, His Blood, ‘Paid in full,’ and then, He wrote, ‘Jesus Christ.’
Is what He did legal? Yes.
lifeisgood
New member
No offense taken, none intended.
Still, do yourself a favor. Sit down to Genesis chapter one and count out not only the things that differ from one another, but their sub-categories.
And that's just in one chapter...
As for the distinctions within Dispensationalism and its sub-groups within its three basic groups - you'll find that is the case in the Other Major school of thought: The Reformed.
Contrast BETWEEN things that DIFFER is ONLY ONE of the MANY things that DIFFER in MANY DIFFERENT areas of life.
Speaking of NECESSARY distinctions between things - again, no offense taken, none intended
I am NOT against learning between things that differ; otherwise, how could we rightly divide the word.
My point is the insistence that it is only 'this way' or it is 'the highway'.
No offense taken. None intended.
Too much of that post reads like the store bought wisdom of men and its endless holes.
Nowhere in Scripture does it assert that the Gentiles were in any legally binding agreement with God.
In this, Paul's Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures differs in its application as to the Gentiles Paul was preaching unto...
In that; within his unique Mystery based gospel is the issue of the grace of God in His Son's death according to and under the Law, but as uniquely applied by Paul this side, of the Law, this side of the Grace of God that was now being revealed to and through Paul to all without distinction, this side of unbelieving Israel's having continued in their fall under...the Law...all the way back from even before their Babylonian captivity.
Again, people fail to note Paul's odd, unique use of the OT...
He is not basing his gospel on the OT.
Rather, he is uniquely applying "same, but different" principles...
Same principle - both in Prophecy and Mystery - different in application, or in use of - in each.
Hi Lifeisgood.
At first I thought you may be speaking of the kinsman redeemer; but there is no sacrifice involved with that.
Could you point where in the law that particular practice you speak of is established?
Thanks.
I'm sorry, but I am not familiar with the term ‘the double’ or ‘possessing the double’ .
At first I thought you may be speaking of the kinsman redeemer; but there is no sacrifice involved with that.
Could you point where in the law that particular practice you speak of is established?
Thanks.
Interplanner
Well-known member
A wordy, worthless post, with same but different word salad. It has no idea what it means.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Indeed, justice was met through the sufferings and death of Jesus Christ. It was a forensic work that satisfied the wrath of god against sinners, which made it possible for God to pardon and impute the righteousness of Jesus Christ to the accounts of those He died for.
"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit." I Peter 3:18
" . . It [righteousness] shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification." Romans 4:24-25
This doctrine of Justification that saves sinners through faith alone, was achieved by Jesus Christ under the Law, according to Covenant, as Mediator and Priest, in order to establish the new Covenant of Grace for His people:
". . He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises." Hebrews 8:6
". . He takes away the first (covenant, legal contract) that He may establish the second, by that will, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." Hebrews 10:9-10
"For where there is a (last will and) testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives." Hebrews 9:16-17
All of the cross work of Jesus Christ was a legal rendering and outworking of the last (only) will and testament of God, for His spiritual heirs and beneficiaries . . the church of Jesus Christ.
Love you too, bro :chuckle:
Yeah, GOD didn't make that covenant with Gentiles at Sinai when the law was given to Israel.
Gentiles didn't need a release from a law they were never under.
And they didn't need a new covenant to replace an old covenant because they were not part of the old covenant to begin with.
For the cross to effect Gentiles it had to do so by going beyond the covenant and law.
Israel needed a release from the law, Gentiles did not.
Right?
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Wrong . .
All men born of Adam, are under the original Covenant of Works established between God and man before the fall. Adam was given commands (Law) and they were disobeyed.
Adam was federal head, representing the entire human race, so when he sinned, the guilt of sin was imputed to all Adam's offspring.
This is the very teaching of Romans 5:12-21
No one could commit the sin Adam and Eve did because an angel with a flaming sword kept all out of the garden where the tree was.
And that is what Rom 5:14 says.
We already know that all are sinners because all sinned.
But we don't have GOD giving any Gentile nation a law with instructions of blessings and cursings for consequences of keeping that law.
But Israel was given specific instructions of the law given at Sinai that no other nation received.
So are you saying that the law made in Genesis 2 is the law that GOD placed on the cross?
The law at Sinai?
Or all decrees ever that the LORD made?
Nang
TOL Subscriber
A&E's sin was disobedience. Any particular action does not determine sin; the particular law broken does not determine sin. Disobeying any Word (command) of God is sin and all men have failed to obey God's Word 100%. (Christ excluded, of course.)
Part of the death curse against A&E was their removal from access to the Tree of Life, which alone would have provided them life. (Genesis 3:24) The Angel of the Lord prevented A&E and all mankind from finding life apart from the last Adam (of whom the first Adam was a like representative type).
Agreed.
A Gentile is a non-Jew. Apart from the nation of Israel, all races are Gentile races. They have always so been . . from Adam to Jacob, all men were Gentiles. There was no such thing as a Hebrew until Jacob was so designated as the Tribal father, "Israel."
True, they were blessed with holy ordinances that revealed God's promises of a Redeemer, that no other nation enjoyed. They were an "elect" people.
However, all of Adam's offspring everywhere, remained under the original covenant made between God and Adam in the garden, and the promise of a "Seed" that would be produced from Eve. Genesis 3:15
The Mosaic Covenant and Law established at Mt. Sinai simply reproduced in full detail that original Covenant of Law and the ordinances reiterated he Messianic promise (gospel).
I am saying that Jesus Christ was lifted up on the cross, to legally satisfy the eternal Moral Law of God, in the stead of those given to Him by the Father to redeem. That is the Justification of the saints.
Ultimately, there is only one Law of God. It is specifically laid out in the Decalogue, which remains to this day. The civil and ceremonial laws ended with the death of Christ, but the one Moral Law of God is applicable . . as a living guide to holy living . . even to those who have been justified by the death of Christ.
This is theologically call the "Third Use of the Law."
The first use of God's one Law, was to convict all men of disobedience and sin.
The second use of God's Law (Sinai) was to convict many men of their need of a Savior.
The third use of God's Law is to produce sanctified, holy living on this earth, through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Our faith in Christ's obedience, actually establishes the Law. See Romans 3:31
God's one true Law is eternal . . never temporal . . for it is our King's Holy Standard, Commands, will, and Word. See Matthew 24:35
What a King decrees (i.e. Law and Order), and establishes, and seals, cannot ever be revoked.
Spiritual principle: Esther 8:8, Daniel 6:8
Right Divider
Body part
I note the very distinct lack of ANY mention of a covenant there in Romans 5.
When Paul, in Romans, does speak of a covenant:
Rom 9:1-5 (AKJV/PCE)
(9:1) I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, (9:2) That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. (9:3) For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: (9:4) Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises; (9:5) Whose [are] the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 11:26-27 (AKJV/PCE)
(11:26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: (11:27) For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
And, of course, this requires the "all believers are spiritual Israel" charade to FIX the obvious problem.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
It is not recommended one form doctrines on silence or non-mentions . . .