About our glorious Triune God

[ZacharyB]

Before the Incarnation, the Holy Trinity was:
God the Father, God the Word, God the Holy Spirit.

# - God the Holy Spirit formed Jesus’ fetus in Mary’s womb.

Jesus was called “the Son of God” because the Holy Spirit was Jesus’ “father”
(“He played the role of” Jesus’ father).

# - God the Word became flesh (Jesus).

So, can we say the Word was Jesus, and Jesus was the Word?

Jesus Christ was “fully man” via God the Holy Spirit.
Jesus Christ was “fully God” via God the Word.

Several NT verses say Jesus Christ came down from heaven.
On the surface, this sounds ridiculous,
but it is referring to the God part of Jesus (God the Word).

 

[Ps82]

Before the Incarnation, the Holy Trinity was:
God the Father, God the Word, God the Holy Spirit.

I'd express things this way:
1.) God/Elohim was - God The Spirit.

2.) God/Elohim the Spirit created an image for his personal use and appeared with IT within creation in the Garden and was called The LORD God. He also became known as The Father LORD God.

3.) According to Isaiah 43:11 The ONE God and Father LORD was to come appearing in flesh as Emmanuel (God among men as the Savior.)
I (being God The invisible Spirit who spoke new things into existence), even I, am The LORD (God as the visible Emmanuel who manifested created things into the realm of visibility); beside ME (coming as the invisible Spirit and the visible LORD) there is no Savior.

IOW: Our savior came as God the Spirit and as the presence of The LORD ... appearing as The promised Son of God who would be a son of man in flesh.

Yes, The WORD was God and was with God when God was Spirit of Gen. 1 and was the Father LORD of Gen. 2.

Yes, The WORD was also with Jesus who was also God, when he came as our Savior.

 

[Ps82]

... # - God the Holy Spirit formed Jesus’ fetus in Mary’s womb.

Yes

Jesus was called “the Son of God” because the Holy Spirit was Jesus’ “father”

Yes, He represented the role of Jesus's father due to the fact that the Father God appeared among men before the Son appeared among men. They both were God working:
KJV John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father worketh hitherto, and (now) I work."
KJV John 1:18 No man hath seen God, at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he (John the Baptist) hath declared him (who was God and LORD among men in flesh as the Savior). Isaiah 43:11

(“He played the role of” Jesus’ father).

# - God the Word became flesh (Jesus).

So, can we say the Word was Jesus, and Jesus was the Word?

I see it that way. The living WORD who was with the living God and was the living God. Who was God? The living creator who was LIFE itself and the giver of LIFE.

Jesus Christ was “fully man” via God the Holy Spirit.
Jesus Christ was “fully God” via God the Word.

Yes

Several NT verses say Jesus Christ came down from heaven.
On the surface, this sounds ridiculous,
but it is referring to the God part of Jesus (God the Word).

Yes

Another example of this sort of manifestation of the unseen into the visible realm is this: Genesis 1 most things were created invisibly within the Spirit of God. Male and female were fist created in this state. A few things seem to have begun to be manifested visually... Sun moon and stars and our planet. but most were not manifested until Gen. 2. The Father LORD God brought forth male and female as visible mankind in Gen. 2. The LORD brought forth plants and animals and presented them to Adam to name ... and so forth. Adam and Woman saw the presence of God named LORD and talked with Him.

 

[ZacharyB]

Ps82, many thanks for your comments!

 

[Clete]

Before the Incarnation, the Holy Trinity was:
God the Father, God the Word, God the Holy Spirit.

# - God the Holy Spirit formed Jesus’ fetus in Mary’s womb.

Jesus was called “the Son of God” because the Holy Spirit was Jesus’ “father”
(“He played the role of” Jesus’ father).

# - God the Word became flesh (Jesus).

So, can we say the Word was Jesus, and Jesus was the Word?

Jesus Christ was “fully man” via God the Holy Spirit.
Jesus Christ was “fully God” via God the Word.

Several NT verses say Jesus Christ came down from heaven.
On the surface, this sounds ridiculous,
but it is referring to the God part of Jesus (God the Word).

So, I'd say there are a few issues with what you've said here. Some of this may have to do with semantics. Meaning that your intent may have been somewhat different than what the words you used managed to communicate. With that in mind...


First, the Spirit did not act as “Jesus’ father.” Scripture never attributes paternity for the Incarnation to the Holy Spirit as a distinct personal father. The Spirit’s role was instrumental, not paternal: He “overshadowed” Mary (Luke 1:35). The conception was by divine power, but Jesus is called Son of God because the eternal Word Himself took on flesh, not because the Spirit became His father. The Father remained the Father.

Secondly, the statement, “Jesus was fully man via the Holy Spirit, fully God via the Word,” divides the natures according to agents, as if each Person contributed a separate ingredient. That’s not biblical nor even orthodox Christianity. The Word (the second Person) became flesh; His human nature came through Mary, not “via the Spirit.” The Spirit caused conception, yet the humanity derived from Mary. To assign Jesus’ humanity to the Spirit is to confuse agency with source.

Next, if the Spirit were Jesus’ father, then the Father is displaced or duplicated. The Trinitarian relations are eternal: Father, Son, and Spirit. They are not roles that shift during the Incarnation. The Son did not come into being because the Spirit fathered Him; He eternally existed and entered the world by taking human nature.

Yes, the Word was Jesus and Jesus was (is) the Word, but only after the Incarnation. The Person of the Word took on human nature; the humanity did not pre-exist as “Jesus.” To speak as though “Jesus” existed in heaven before being conceived collapses the distinction between the pre-incarnate Word and the incarnate God-man. Scripture says the Word came down from heaven, not the human body.

You interpret “came down” as “the God part of Jesus,” as though Jesus were two persons glued together, one human and one divine. That is a form of Nestorian dualism. The correct understanding is that the one Person, the eternal Son, came from heaven and assumed human nature. The descent refers to His divine origin, not to a detachable “God part.”

In short, your post confuses the roles within the Trinity, treats the Spirit as Jesus’ father, divides Christ’s natures by Person, and implies two fathers and two persons in Christ. The biblical and coherent formulation is simple...

• The Father sent the Son (the eternal Word).
• The Holy Spirit caused the conception in Mary.
• The Word Himself became flesh, truly God and truly man, one Person forever.
• In some very important, but not well understood sense, to discuss Father, Son and Spirit is to speak of the same singular God and, as such, it was THE God Himself who became a man and died for our sin and rose from the dead three days later.

 

[Ps82]

Ps82, many thanks for your comments!

I left out an important point ... The Holy Spirit in us is still God the Spirit ... but we do not have all of God associated with us as did our Lord Jesus, yet we do have an additional measure of life, power and enlightenment in us from God the Spirit. HIS power holds us unto the completion of the salvation process is completed. He teaches us and brings peace and help in times of need on earth until we believers are in his kingdom forever.

I learned that God can allocate measures of life and power and wisdom unto us when we make him Lord of our lives and receive our salvation. Where did I learn this?
ANSWER:
I learned it from John 3:34-35 It seems God gave ALL THINGS of himself without measure unto Jesus. This truth told me that God could measure out things of his spiritual essence unto created things. God's invisible spiritual essence given in measure means no created being is ever equal to God... except The Son of God. He had all access.

Part of God's nature is that HE is LIFE; so humanity has a measure of life from God at this time ... but he Holy Spirit in us gives us an extra measure of life to hold us until we are complete IN HIM/IN GOD.

John 3:
34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God (The Spirit with the addition of a visible presence as LORD = The Father)) giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given ALL THINGS into his hand.

These are two packed verses. Jesus was not like a box of God. No limited body could contain all of God, but Jesus certainly was allowed to have access to ALL THINGS pertaining to God when instantly needed.

I don't think we humans have or ever will have that sort of beck and call access and will never be equal to God. Yet, I suggest believers have extra measures from God which change us. I see the Holy Spirit in us as a unique personage of the God Head. Even if Jesus gave us this gift of God in us ... and sometimes we hear it said, "Christ in us," the Holy spirit in us operates differently as a unique personage of the God Head. You might say I can accept more than three while knowing ALL THREE are the ONE God.

The ONE God is them...
HE is They and THEY are HE.
(Lots of people don't like it when I write truth like this but we have a linking verb, truth, two subject nominative cases and truth with which to deal.)

 

[Clete]

I left out an important point ... The Holy Spirit in us is still God the Spirit ... but we do not have all of God associated with us as did our Lord Jesus, yet we do have an additional measure of life, power and enlightenment in us from God the Spirit. HIS power holds us unto the completion of the salvation process is completed. He teaches us and brings peace and help in times of need on earth until we believers are in his kingdom forever.

I learned that God can allocate measures of life and power and wisdom unto us when we make him Lord of our lives and receive our salvation. Where did I learn this?
ANSWER:
I learned it from John 3:34-35 It seems God gave ALL THINGS of himself without measure unto Jesus. This truth told me that God could measure out things of his spiritual essence unto created things. God's invisible spiritual essence given in measure means no created being is ever equal to God... except The Son of God. He had all access.

Part of God's nature is that HE is LIFE; so humanity has a measure of life from God at this time ... but he Holy Spirit in us gives us an extra measure of life to hold us until we are complete IN HIM/IN GOD.

John 3:
34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God (The Spirit with the addition of a visible presence as LORD = The Father)) giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given ALL THINGS into his hand.

These are two packed verses. Jesus was not like a box of God. No limited body could contain all of God, but Jesus certainly was allowed to have access to ALL THINGS pertaining to God when instantly needed.

I don't think we humans have or ever will have that sort of beck and call access and will never be equal to God. Yet, I suggest believers have extra measures from God which change us. I see the Holy Spirit in us as a unique personage of the God Head. Even if Jesus gave us this gift of God in us ... and sometimes we hear it said, "Christ in us," the Holy spirit in us operates differently as a unique personage of the God Head. You might say I can accept more than three while knowing ALL THREE are the ONE God.

The ONE God is them...
HE is They and THEY are HE.
(Lots of people don't like it when I write truth like this but we have a linking verb, truth, two subject nominative cases and truth with which to deal.)

The problem here is not just one of language but of theology. The post above tries to sound deep, but it lacks clarity, coherence, and biblical grounding. It reads like someone trying to piece together doctrinal truths from poetic impressions rather than from sound reasoning and Scripture.

John 3:34 does not teach that God measures out portions of His "essence" to creatures. It says that God did not give the Spirit by measure to Jesus. The point is not about how much of God's "stuff" someone can hold. The point is that Jesus, being sent by God, speaks the words of God because He has the full operation of the Spirit. That is not about quantifying divinity but about confirming that Christ is the perfect and full revelation of God. He is not just a man who had access to divine power. He is God in the flesh. The Son does not borrow the divine, He possesses it by nature.

Saying that God “measures out” life, power, and wisdom like cups of water to be poured is a category mistake. God gives gifts. He does not give fragments of Himself. The Spirit does not exist in quantifiable parts. He is a Person. He indwells believers fully as He wills. This is not a matter of measurable essence, it's a matter of relationship and function within the Godhead and the believer's position in Christ.

Then we are told that “HE is They and THEY are HE” as if this is profound. It is not. It is confused. The doctrine of the Trinity does not say that God is They in some vague grammatical way. It says God is one Being in three Persons. That is precise. It does not mean God becomes three or that three become one in some loose grammatical arrangement. It means that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Spirit is God, and yet there is only one God. The persons are not modes. They are not expressions. They are not parts. They are coequal and coeternal persons who are one in essence.

Finally, the distinction between “Christ in us” and “the Holy Spirit in us” is a false one. Romans 8:9 makes it clear that the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God are one and the same in the sense of indwelling. The Spirit is the agent of Christ's presence in us. The New Testament writers are not being sloppy when they switch between those terms. They are affirming the unity of the Godhead. It is not helpful to separate the indwelling work of the Spirit from the presence of Christ in us as though they are two unrelated phenomena. It is one work of one God.

Theology should not be built on impressionistic language or poetic fragments. It should be grounded in the clear teaching of Scripture and the disciplined use of reason. Anything less leads to confusion that may sound spiritual but has no anchored to anything true. Doctrine formed in the manner exemplified in Ps82's post can lead to ANY theological conclusion one desires. It is how cultists do doctrine and it should have no place in Christianity.

 

[JudgeRightly]

we do not have all of God associated with us

Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

Bible Gateway passage: Colossians 2:8-10 - New King James Version

Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all...

www.biblegateway.com

If "all the fullness of the Godhead" dwells in Christ, then so too with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Ps82]

Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

Bible Gateway passage: Colossians 2:8-10 - New King James Version

Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all...

www.biblegateway.com

If "all the fullness of the Godhead" dwells in Christ, then so too with the Holy Spirit.

Are you suggesting we believers, who are filled with the gift of the Holy Ghost/Spirit, are equal with God here and now and will remain equal in eternity? Curious. I'd like to ponder what it means to be complete in Christ. Just because we are said to be complete through the works of Christ, does that have the same meaning as we are equal to Him and therefore God?

My thoughts: He, Jesus, who thought it not robbery to be equal with even why appearing in flesh, was equal in Spirit... and in the image belonging to God ... but that equality doesn't necessarily apply to the Saints.

Here are a couple of opinions/conclusions of mine:
a.) The body of the Father, which was a visible super-natural angelic bodily form, which could dwell within unapproachable light, was not God. God is an invisible Spirit. The image/presence of God was created.

b.) The mortal visible body of flesh, which allowed us to see the presence of the Messiah, was not God for the ONE God is Spirit. Jesus, being spiritually God, who was seen, had access to the Spirit without measure. Jesus was equal with God in two ways while on earth. Spiritually and visually. Jesus took on sin (when in came appearing with cursed mortal flesh) and was tempted in all ways as a man but as God sinned not.

I like the way Colossians 1:15 speaks of the image of God.

1:15 (Jesus) Who is the image of (the image belonging to) the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.

The appositive for the noun image is - the firstborn of every creature. An appositive renamed a noun as in -
My mother, Martha, made a pie.
The image, the first born, of all creatures.

IOW: The phrase (of creatures) means it was a created thing. IT, the body, was created first of all. Certainly before The LORD formed mankind a body after its likeness.

Jesus, was equal with the Spirit of God, but also bore the same chosen created physical form as had the Father. The image is not God ... but was created for God's personal use and he used it.

This is why God said what was written in Genesis 2: "Let us make man after our image and likeness." These plural pronouns insinuated from the start that God planned to use IT multiple times to manifest himself as more than one personage of the God Head. Certainly as the Father and the Son of flesh ... and I will predict as our Risen glorified Lord in his kingdom.

Regarding the Holy Spirit/ghost in us: I believe saints have access to the Spirit of God ... but not without measure. A limited spiritual essence needed to accomplish God's work in us.

After all, Satan was condemned for his original sin, which seems to have been some sort of attempt to become God through a rebellion.
I don't know why he ever thought he could accomplish that. And I don't know why God would then allow us saints to become equal to him...

 

[JudgeRightly]

Are you suggesting we believers, who are filled with the gift of the Holy Ghost/Spirit, are equal with God here and now and will remain equal in eternity?

I said nothing about believers.

 

[Ps82]

I said nothing about believers.

Please explain more clearly for me what you were trying to reveal to people posting here? There seems to be a warning in your post. Warnings of what or whom?

 

[Ps82]

Sorry, Judge Rightly, yes you did mention believers. Quote: " For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power."

The antecedent of the pronoun "you" is understood to be those having been given the Spirit of God in us. Now, Jesus had or was associated with the Spirit of God in him without measure. @ KJV John 3:34-35 let me know that God could give of His Spirit in measures. Just because Jesus had the Spirit without it being measured unto him does not mean that believers had the same amount given to them to establish immortality.

If someone concludes believers have the same spiritual measure of God in us as did Jesus, then that person is saying that all believers will one day be equal with Jesus who was equal with God. This was told of Jesus: Phil 2:6 (Lord Jesus) Who, (also) being in the (bodily) form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God ...

Regarding our ONE Spiritual God and how He was able to manifest himself as three personages at work for the sake of mankind.
The Father and the Son were God manifested concretely and visually unto men within our world.
The Holy Spirit in us is manifested invisibly within believer having the ability to communicate as the WORD of God as mentioned in
Colossians 3:16.
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, (while you are) teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God.
John 15:7 If ye (believers) abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.