Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Do you equate the kingdom of God and the churches and the Body of Christ in some way? such that to "come against the Lamb's kingdom" is tantamount to coming against the Church?
A Walk Through Revelation
- Thread starter fzappa13
- Start date
I have to admit that I don't understand your question. That is likely because we don't share a common reference point as it concerns our understanding of the Bible. You are a self professed Catholic and I am not so I'm not entirely familiar with the underlying beliefs that you have that gave rise to your question.
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Fair question. I'm not presuming Catholicism. What I'm getting at is that there could be an enemy of the ... all the Christians, who is also an enemy of most or many non-Christians. I mean, does it have to be just ... all the Christians, who are persecuted or oppressed, in Revelation, or can the described persecution and oppression be sloppy and haphazard, but just particularly destructive of ... all the Christians? but almost, by accident?
Well, that's jumping ahead in this book and we're trying to take it a chapter at a time. That said, I think the answer to your question lay in chapter 12.
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
tbf Tam was the one jumping ahead.
I was just asking the question generally.
The point I was making for chapter 1 is that while John writes reminders to only 7 specific churches the context of those reminders should be a notice for all churches to keep in mind.
In other words, I was only making a point about the number 7.
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Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
And it meaning or representing or signifying completion, like the seven days of the creation week means "complete."
I'm not sure how you see the 7 churches John is writing to as "complete".
Something that can be discussed is whether John is having a dream or was actually in the heavenly realm.
I lean towards the view that he was actually there because there are times that he says he hears a voice and when he turns to see who said it he sees others things as well.
Revelation 1
(12) Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,
I lean towards the view that he was actually there because there are times that he says he hears a voice and when he turns to see who said it he sees others things as well.
Revelation 1
(12) Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Your words, "I think it is more in reference to a "united" front. ... The 7 for the churches would be for all in the kingdom of God and the 7 heads for the beast would be for all in the kingdoms that come against the Lamb's kingdom," got me thinking in terms of complete like a "complete set." fwiw.
Ahh, I see.Your words, "I think it is more in reference to a "united" front. ... The 7 for the churches would be for all in the kingdom of God and the 7 heads for the beast would be for all in the kingdoms that come against the Lamb's kingdom," got me thinking in terms of complete like a "complete set." fwiw.
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Next I would like to offer a small translational critique here. As may be seen from verse 5 Jesus is here being referred to by John but the subject becomes somewhat confused by the translation of verse 6. When John is translated as saying "unto God and his father" it turns the Greek into a non sequitur that appears to be talking about two different entities. I can only speculate as to the reasons for this translational choice but I think a review of the Greek offers some much better alternatives. The Greek word here translated as "and" is "kai" and is defined as follows:
Conjunction
and, also, even, indeed, but
I would think either the terms "also" , "even" or "indeed" would have been the better a choice given the context.
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Next I would like to offer a small translational critique here. As may be seen from verse 5 Jesus is here being referred to by John but the subject becomes somewhat confused by the translation of verse 6. When John is translated as saying "unto God and his father" it turns the Greek into a non sequitur that appears to be talking about two different entities. I can only speculate as to the reasons for this translational choice but I think a review of the Greek offers some much better alternatives. The Greek word here translated as "and" is "kai" and is defined as follows:
Conjunction
and, also, even, indeed, but
I would think either the terms "also" , "even" or "indeed" would have been the better a choice given the context.
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
This term "first begotten" is derived from the Greek word "prototokos" which is defined as follows:
4416 prōtótokos (from 4413 /prṓtos, "first, pre-eminent" and 5088 /tíktō, "bring forth") – properly, first in time (Mt 1:25; Lk 2:7); hence, pre-eminent (Col 1:15; Rev 1:5).
This word occurs three times in the Bible, two of which occur in Colossians and I think a look at that passage will be helpful in understanding some of what we will encounter later in Revelation.
Col 1: 12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
In Rev 1:5 He is referred to as "the first begotten of the dead" whereas in Col 1:15 He is referred to as "the first born of every creature." The significance of what is said here will gain added importance as we move forward in Revelation.
This term "first begotten" is derived from the Greek word "prototokos" which is defined as follows:
4416 prōtótokos (from 4413 /prṓtos, "first, pre-eminent" and 5088 /tíktō, "bring forth") – properly, first in time (Mt 1:25; Lk 2:7); hence, pre-eminent (Col 1:15; Rev 1:5).
This word occurs three times in the Bible, two of which occur in Colossians and I think a look at that passage will be helpful in understanding some of what we will encounter later in Revelation.
Col 1: 12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
In Rev 1:5 He is referred to as "the first begotten of the dead" whereas in Col 1:15 He is referred to as "the first born of every creature." The significance of what is said here will gain added importance as we move forward in Revelation.
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Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
We're apparently months if not years away from chapter 13 but for whenever we do arrive there, this thread's pertinent:
666
666 if you search daniel for the word number, you get this Daniel 9:2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. that...
theologyonline.com
Tam expressed an interest in a non hurried approach to this effort and I concurred. This allows for chasing down different thoughts while the format itself bring things back on course in sequentially working our way through it. I participated in the thread you referenced and when we get to 13 it might be useful to review said thread for possible inclusions into this one.
More about the firstborn and the connected dots to inheritance and firstfruits.
The firstborn is set apart from others.
Exodus 13
(2) “Consecrate to me all the firstborn. Whatever is the first to open the womb among the people of Israel, both of man and of beast, is mine.”
Tribe of Levi (the priests) take the place of the firstborn from the womb.
Numbers 3
(12) “Behold, I have taken the Levites from among the people of Israel instead of every firstborn who opens the womb among the people of Israel. The Levites shall be mine,
Numbers 3
(41) And you shall take the Levites for me—I am the LORD—instead of all the firstborn among the people of Israel, and the cattle of the Levites instead of all the firstborn among the cattle of the people of Israel.”
The tribe of priests (Levi) has a different inheritance than the rest of Israel and is why they got no land.
Deuteronomy 10
(9) Therefore Levi has no portion or inheritance with his brothers. The LORD is his inheritance,
Deuteronomy 18
(1) “The Levitical priests, all the tribe of Levi, shall have no portion or inheritance with Israel. They shall eat the LORD's food offerings as their inheritance.
Ezekiel 44
(28) “This shall be their [tribe of Levi] inheritance: I am their inheritance: and you shall give them no possession in Israel; I am their possession.
And firstfruits go to the priests.
Deuteronomy 18
(4) The firstfruits of your grain, of your wine and of your oil, and the first fleece of your sheep, you shall give him.
Ezekiel 44
(30) And the first of all the firstfruits of all kinds, and every offering of all kinds from all your offerings, shall belong to the priests.
Which will tie in when we get to chapter 14.
Revelation 14
(4) It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,
I did, but I can live with however you want to run your thread.
Each chapter of Revelation can have a LOT of commentary and I would just as soon do a thorough study of each one rather than rush through them or jump around because everything in previous chapters will help in understanding the following chapters.
Sorta like life ...