A Saviour unto Israel

[beloved57]

Who are these Israelites ?

Who are these Israelites ?

Rom 9:4

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Now I know many are going to say they are the jews, physical, ethnic descendants of Abraham according to the flesh as stated here in Rom 9:8

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Romans 9:8 here is specifying, the israelites which are Abraham's children according to the flesh, but to think that Paul means them back up in Vs 4 is a mistake, for those israelites are not the Children of God or neither Heirs of Promise, in fact they are in allegory liken to the children of ishmael Gal 4:30

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

So Rom 9:4 cannot possibly refer to them, except of gourse for a small remnant according to the Election of Grace, and not according to their physical connection to Abraham ! Rom 11:5-7

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Now to those Israelites, Isralites indeed, did pertain the Promises, due to their Election in Christ, in whom all the Promises of God are Yeah and Amen 2 Cor 1:19-20

19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.

20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Rom 15:8

Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: The Fathers here means People of Faith, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ! Note: God made no promises to the unregenerate !

And of courses this includes the Promise to Abraham and his Seed of an Inheritance Gal 3:16-18

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Abraham's physical descendants israel are excluded from the above Promis of Inheritance given to Abraham and his Seed !

 

[beloved57]

Who are these Israelite's ? 2

Who are these Israelite's ? 2

Now understand something, this is not to say that no ethnic jews are Israelites indeed, and that none shall partake of the Promises of Rom 9:4, Yes there will be some, but not because of any physical connection to Abraham, but because of a Spiritual connection with Christ, Abraham's Seed to whom the Promises were made Gal 3:16

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

There will be ethnic jews as well as all other ethnicity's in this Family of Israelite's spoken of in Rom 9:4

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

So the ethnic jews who are included in this these Israelites are Christ's Spiritual Seed, on behalf of Abraham, as well as some Gentiles were Christ's Spiritual Seed on behalf of Abraham, because Abraham cant produce a Spiritual Seed, a Person of Faith, but Christ his Seed can and does !

So its Abraham's Seed by way of His Spiritual Seed Christ, their Election in Him, that are the Israelite's of Rom 9:4, and this should not surprise us one bit because Paul begins to explain this seemingly Dilemma in Rom 9:6

6 Not as though the word of God[Or Promise] hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

 

[aikido7]

Rom 9:4

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Now I know many are going to say they are the jews, physical, ethnic descendants of Abraham according to the flesh as stated here in Rom 9:8

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Romans 9:8 here is specifying, the israelites which are Abraham's children according to the flesh, but to think that Paul means them back up in Vs 4 is a mistake, for those israelites are not the Children of God or neither Heirs of Promise, in fact they are in allegory liken to the children of ishmael Gal 4:30

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

So Rom 9:4 cannot possibly refer to them, except of gourse for a small remnant according to the Election of Grace, and not according to their physical connection to Abraham ! Rom 11:5-7

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Now to those Israelites, Isralites indeed, did pertain the Promises, due to their Election in Christ, in whom all the Promises of God are Yeah and Amen 2 Cor 1:19-20

19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.

20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Rom 15:8

Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: The Fathers here means People of Faith, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ! Note: God made no promises to the unregenerate !

And of courses this includes the Promise to Abraham and his Seed of an Inheritance Gal 3:16-18

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Abraham's physical descendants israel are excluded from the above Promis of Inheritance given to Abraham and his Seed !

I do not intend to be either disruptive or blasphemous. I am merely sharing beliefs and thoughts that I have gleaned from the Bible itself.

I see much evidence for the fact that Jesus did not think much of Gentiles. He mocked their praying style and at one point referred to them as dogs.

He is recorded to have said his message of the Kingdom of God was meant for Jews only--to the "House of Israel."

Later interpolations by the gospel writers picked up Paul's earlier theology of taking the gospel to the "nations." I don't see this as having anything to do with Jesus' intentions.

Of course, the irony is that Jesus soon became a figure worshiped by Gentiles and put on a pedestal that claimed he was God.

Christianity became a religion Jesus would have shunned.

The only hope I see is that Jesus' ethical teachings and his Kingdom of God theology have been remembered by his later followers and written down in the gospels.

Christianity has gone down a road that is not useful, in my opinion. Nowadays it seems that membership in the Christian church is marked by giving one's assent to a list of ancient, theological formulations of divinity. All one has to do is believe. There is no requirement for changing one's behavior by following any advice or teachings from the authentic figure of Jesus.

...but like I said, the teachings are still there in black and white. They will always remain there and be ours to follow if we want to.



"He comes to us as One unknown, without a name, as of old, by the lakeside.

He came to those men who knew Him not. He speaks to us the same words: 'Follow thou me!' and sets us to the tasks which He has to fulfill for our time.

He commands.

And to those who obey Him, whether they be wise or simple, He will reveal himself in the toils, the conflicts, the sufferings which they shall pass through in His fellowship, and, as an ineffable mystery, they shall learn in their own experience Who He is."

--ALBERT SCHWEITZER from "The Quest for the Historical Jesus."

 

[beloved57]

aik

I do not intend to be either disruptive or blasphemous. I am merely sharing beliefs and thoughts that I have gleaned from the Bible itself.

Did you understand the points I made in the post ?

 

[beloved57]

Who are these Israelite's ? 3

Who are these Israelite's ? 3

Lets also consider that the Israelites Paul speaks of in Rom 9:4, to them pertaineth the Adoption Rom 9:4

Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Which is by Jesus Christ and Election in Him Eph 1:4-5

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Its also the Adoption Paul writes of here Gal 4:4-7

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Yet the israelites who were merely the physical seed or descendants of Abraham according to the flesh, they are not the Heirs, they are not the Children of God and inheritor of the Promises Rom 9:8, as was Isaac and those he typified Gal 4:28

28 Now we, brethren[The Church, the Body of Christ], as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Oh by the way, the Spirit of Adoption doesnt make them sons Vs 6, but they were sons/children already, it [The Spirit] only makes their sonship manifested Jn 1:12 !

The Spirit of Adoption bestows upon the children a nature agreeable with their sonship, it makes us meet for our Sonship Inheritance Col 1:12

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

The same Inheritance here Gal 3:18

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

It provides the children with a spiritual heart, will and affections, to Love both the Father and the Son and the True People of God ! Thats the True Israel Ps 73:1

Truly God is good to Israel, even to such as are of a clean heart.

A clean Heart is one with the Spirit of Adoption sent into it Gal 4:6

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

So the Adoption of Rom 9:4 could not apply to natural, physical israelites, they are not the Children of God Rom 9:8 ! Yes it did apply to a small remnant of them, but not because of any physical connection to Abraham, but because of a election of grace connection in Christ !

 

[beloved57]

Gentiles are Called the Children of Israel !

Gentiles are Called the Children of Israel !

That the Gentiles are called " The Children of Israel" is seen by scripture Testimony, comparing scripture with scripture, in Hosea we have Hos 1:10-11

10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head[Christ the Head of the Church ], and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

"Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God."

Now Paul applies this passage to the Gentiles Rom 9:24-28

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

This is irrefutable proof that the Gentiles that God Calls are Identified as part of the House of Israel and Judah prophesied of from Hosea 1 !

 

[Interplanner]

Good work, Beloved57,
Keep emphasizing that we must have the NT interp of OT passages to make sense of the OT. We should not stop with our own direct reading.

 

[beloved57]

A Royal Priesthood !

A Royal Priesthood !

1 Pet 2:9

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Are these here Peter calls a Royal Priesthood Abraham's physical descendants the jews ? No, not by any means, unless peter was writing to ethnic jews under the OC out of the tribe of levi, otherwise they were not qualified to be priests.

So these are not Abraham's physical descendants, but his Spiritual Offspring, comprised or made up of believers [jew or Gentile] in Christ, because those who belong to Him are the Seed of Abraham Gal 3:29

And if ye be Christ's,[His Body the Church] then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

That these Peter wrote to were Gentiles, at least some of them, is seen from the quote he uses from Isa 43:21

21 This people have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my praise.

Which appears to be joined to what precded in verses 19-20 Isa 43:19-20

19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.

20 The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen.

Which language points to the Gentiles "The beast of the field shall honour me,"

This is also connected with the vision God gave Peter when sending him to the Gentiles with the Gospel, the vision of the wild beasts Acts 10:9-15

9 On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:

10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,

11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:

12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.

14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

For these Gentiles were those God said of them in Isa 43:20-21

20 The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen.

21 This people have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my praise.

They are His Chosen, which goes with 1 Pet 2:9

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

This is part of the Mystery of Christ, that the Gentiles, those that were Chosen, were on a same level with the Chosen jews, the Chosen of God ! Paul said that he had obtained Mercy 1 Tim 1:13

13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

No differently from the Gentiles did 1 Pet 2:10; Rom 11:30

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

And as he obtained it in unbelief, so did the Gentiles, for unbelief is not an obstacle in obtaining Mercy to the Vessels of Mercy, its the occasion for it, and which the obtaining of it, makes believers out of them, as Paul states that his own obtaining of it proved to be the example 1 Tim 1:16

16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

So the Royal Priesthood is the Church, the Body of Christ, Abraham's Spiritual Believing Seed !

 

[aikido7]

aik



Did you understand the points I made in the post ?

Yes.

But my remarks still stand.

 

[Danoh]

I do not intend to be either disruptive or blasphemous. I am merely sharing beliefs and thoughts that I have gleaned from the Bible itself.

I see much evidence for the fact that Jesus did not think much of Gentiles. He mocked their praying style and at one point referred to them as dogs.

He is recorded to have said his message of the Kingdom of God was meant for Jews only--to the "House of Israel."

Later interpolations by the gospel writers picked up Paul's earlier theology of taking the gospel to the "nations." I don't see this as having anything to do with Jesus' intentions.

While I strongly disagree with Beloved 57 and Interplanner...

You might have something here...

Perhaps that's how the Prophet Isaiah - many centuries earlier - arrived at his prophecies concerning the Gentiles - in writers many centuries later :bang:

 

[beloved57]

Who are this Peculiar treasure/ People ?

Who are this Peculiar treasure/ People ?

Ex 19:5

5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

This is speaking of/about the Church, the Body of Christ, purchased with the precious Blood of Christ Acts 20:28

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

The word purchased here is the greek word peripoieó:

I acquire, earn, purchase, make my own, preserve alive.

The word pecuilar in Ex 19:5 means:

possession, property

See, Christ in the Place of God's People obeyed God's Covenant, He did so as the Head of the Body of Christ, His Church.




properly, fully acquire (literally, "make all-around, comprehensively"); make one's own; reserve for oneself, with deep personal interest (caring).

This is the only way any can be a pecuilar people/Treasure unto God




We also know this is the Church because the People are confirmed a pecuilar people, a holy nation in 1 Pet 2:5,9

Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

And what is said of this pecuilar people in 1 Pet 1:18-19

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Which points us back to Acts 20:28

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

They had been redeemed/bought with a Price, notice Vs 19, whose blood redeemed/bought them ? The Blood of Christ who is the Head of His Body the Church ! So its through the Redemptive Life and death/blood of Christ that we have this peculiar people 1 Pet 2:9

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people [ God's special possession]; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Which fulfills Ex 19:5

Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar[my treasured possession] treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

See, God doesnt have more than One Special Treasured Possession of a People, that would be a inconsitency to say the least !

And because this is True, that Pecuilar People is so by the Blood of Christ, the Head of the Church, or it is so by the flesh and ethnicity of a people, outside of Christ the Head of the Church ! And that would be the case if the People in Ex 19:5 is not the Church, the Body of Christ ! But it would have to be ethnic israel who broke God's Covenant and continued not in it Heb 8:9

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Jer 31:32

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

That word brake means :

break asunder, cast off, cause to cease, clean, defeat, disannul, disappoint,

The Covenant was obeyed and Kept by Christ, the Head of the Church !

 

[aikido7]

Rom 9:4

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Now I know many are going to say they are the jews, physical, ethnic descendants of Abraham according to the flesh as stated here in Rom 9:8

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Romans 9:8 here is specifying, the israelites which are Abraham's children according to the flesh, but to think that Paul means them back up in Vs 4 is a mistake, for those israelites are not the Children of God or neither Heirs of Promise, in fact they are in allegory liken to the children of ishmael Gal 4:30

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

So Rom 9:4 cannot possibly refer to them, except of gourse for a small remnant according to the Election of Grace, and not according to their physical connection to Abraham ! Rom 11:5-7

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Now to those Israelites, Isralites indeed, did pertain the Promises, due to their Election in Christ, in whom all the Promises of God are Yeah and Amen 2 Cor 1:19-20

19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.

20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Rom 15:8

Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: The Fathers here means People of Faith, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ! Note: God made no promises to the unregenerate !

And of courses this includes the Promise to Abraham and his Seed of an Inheritance Gal 3:16-18

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Abraham's physical descendants israel are excluded from the above Promis of Inheritance given to Abraham and his Seed !

Jesus' mission during his life was to the House of Israel. He didn't think much of Gentiles and called them "dogs" while mocking their praying style.

The irony is that he was eventually idolized, placed on a pedestal and worshiped as God by Gentiles.

 

[Danoh]

Good work, Beloved57,
Keep emphasizing that we must have the NT interp of OT passages to make sense of the OT. We should not stop with our own direct reading.

More like absolute mess.

 

[aikido7]

aik



Did you understand the points I made in the post ?

If your point was to show some verses from Paul's letter to the Romans, I understood and tried to read them in the context in which they were originally written.

Sorry, but I did not notice any hermeneutic conclusion from you about the verses, however.

 

[beloved57]

If your point was to show some verses from Paul's letter to the Romans, I understood and tried to read them in the context in which they were originally written.

Sorry, but I did not notice any hermeneutic conclusion from you about the verses, however.

Then you have no basis for debate if you cant understand my points made, even though you may disagree with them !

 

[Danoh]

Then you have no basis for debate if you cant understand my points made, even though you may disagree with them !

All you did was point your "one size fits all" bias all over Scriptures that are not even speaking of the same issues, and forced them into saying the same thing.

Interplanner commended you because he too hasn't a clue what Romans 9-11 is actually all about.

Case in point; this here - Romans 9's:

1. I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2. That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4. Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5. Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Is speaking of this here - "my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4. Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5. Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

In relation to this here - 1. I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2. That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

He is speaking about Israel, but you have twisted all this that it fit your bias.

He has just finished eight chapters dealing with the issue of God's New Agency; the Body of Christ, and now turns to an issue he has to deal with - the issue of what has become of God's agency: Israel, that it looks as if it is over for that nation.

He then proceeds to deal with the answer to that; to what things appear to look like as concerning Israel, that it appears God is through with His plans and purpose in Himself as to them.

He then goes into that:

6. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

You see those 11 words - "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect."

He is saying that although it looks like all is lost for Israel, such is not the case; that it is "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect."

That though such was the case with many, such was not the case with all - "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:"

Just as all who were the seed of Abraham, were not the children of the promise; in other words, just as only those who were the seed of that promised child: Isaac, were the seed.

8. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

He is illustrating a principle or general rule of thumb by which we Gentiles - who actually take His Word "as it is written" - can know what all was going on as to Israel; that we not end up wise in our own conceits out of our ignorance of this issue and conclude that as far as God's plans and purpose as to this here:

4. Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

"...the word of God hath taken none effect."

This is an issue Paul takes up three chapters laying out the truth of, but that you and yours completely twist into some thing else altogether.

One principle is that the Israelites consisted of two kinds - all Israel, and, their believing remnant - Romans 11:

7. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Note - "Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded."

Israel that was not Israel, hath not obtained it - their election was Israel; they obtained it - the rest - Israel that was not Israel, were blinded.

Romans 3:

1. What advantage then hath the Jew? Or what profit is there of circumcision?
2. Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3. For what if some did not believe? Shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

What faith of God? This issue of the status of God's plans and purpose as to Israel that Paul will expand greatly on in Romans 9-11.

Anyone without an ax to grind - who simply takes the passages as Paul has laid them out, cannot but conclude this very short synopsis, is what Paul is talking about, and about to expand greatly on.

 

[beloved57]

All you did was point your "one size fits all" bias all over Scriptures that are not even speaking of the same issues, and forced them into saying the same thing.

Interplanner commended you because he too hasn't a clue what Romans 9-11 is actually all about.

Case in point; this here - Romans 9's:

1. I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2. That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4. Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5. Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Is speaking of this here - "my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4. Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5. Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

In relation to this here - 1. I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2. That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

He is speaking about Israel, but you have twisted all this that it fit your bias.

He has just finished eight chapters dealing with the issue of God's New Agency; the Body of Christ, and now turns to an issue he has to deal with - the issue of what has become of God's agency: Israel, that it looks as if it is over for that nation.

He then proceeds to deal with the answer to that; to what things appear to look like as concerning Israel, that it appears God is through with His plans and purpose in Himself as to them.

He then goes into that:

6. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

You see those 11 words - "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect."

He is saying that although it looks like all is lost for Israel, such is not the case; that it is "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect."

That though such was the case with many, such was not the case with all - "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:"

Just as all who were the seed of Abraham, were not the children of the promise; in other words, just as only those who were the seed of that promised child: Isaac, were the seed.

8. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

He is illustrating a principle or general rule of thumb by which we Gentiles - who actually take His Word "as it is written" - can know what all was going on as to Israel; that we not end up wise in our own conceits out of our ignorance of this issue and conclude that as far as God's plans and purpose as to this here:

4. Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

"...the word of God hath taken none effect."

This is an issue Paul takes up three chapters laying out the truth of, but that you and yours completely twist into some thing else altogether.

One principle is that the Israelites consisted of two kinds - all Israel, and, their believing remnant - Romans 11:

7. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Note - "Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded."

Israel that was not Israel, hath not obtained it - their election was Israel; they obtained it - the rest - Israel that was not Israel, were blinded.

Romans 3:

1. What advantage then hath the Jew? Or what profit is there of circumcision?
2. Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3. For what if some did not believe? Shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

What faith of God? This issue of the status of God's plans and purpose as to Israel that Paul will expand greatly on in Romans 9-11.

Anyone without an ax to grind - who simply takes the passages as Paul has laid them out, cannot but conclude this very short synopsis, is what Paul is talking about, and about to expand greatly on.

Did you understand my points made? Yes or No?

 

[Ben Masada]

As far as I am concerned, Jesus saw his message for the House of Israel only. The outreach to the "nations" (Paul) and the Gentiles didn't get started until after Jesus' death and resurrection.

I have the scriptural references and I have given many time and time again. I think those who want to look into the matter more carefully should do their own research.

"...until after Jesus' resurrection!" Can you show me any one who was an eyewitness to the resurrection of Jesus?" I am asking because Paul himself confessed to his disciple Timothy that the resurrection of Jesus, was according to his - Paul's - own gospel. (II Tim. 2:8) Obviously, there must have been another gospel at the time which would not speak of Jesus' resurrection. If you ask me, it was the very gospel of the Apostles of Jesus which Paul considered false apostles. (II Cor. 11:13)

 

[Danoh]

Did you understand my points made? Yes or No?

I absolutely understood your every point.

None of them concurred with what Romans 1-3; 9-11, and 15, are talking about with regard to the status of the faith of God's Word as to His plan and purpose in Himself through His Son by the Spirit as to Israel.

Romans 3:

1. What advantage then hath the Jew? Or what profit is there of circumcision?
2. Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3. For what if some did not believe? Shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Romans 9:

4. Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5. Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

What God purposed in Himself to do as to all the above through His Son by the Spirit in that nation had not failed.

It only appeared to have failed - Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Romans 11 continues this thought - what happened with Israel that it appears God was now through with His purpose in Himself through them as to all that?

Romans 11:

1. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

I'm sorry, but that passage is literal! The fact is that...

2. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? How he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3. Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

Those were seven thousand sons of Jacob!

Well guess what? You see that principle - Israelites - sons of Jacob?

5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

This election of grace is not ours here - he is talking about the sons of Jacob who chose to believe the God of their fathers.

He is talking about this promise - Exodus 19:

3. And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
4. Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
5. Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6. And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
7. And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
8. And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

Verse 8 "all the people" entered into that, but "not all" followed suit.

Romans 9-11 says very little about the Body of Christ because Paul is dealing with the issue of what became of God's faith to His Word as to Israel's adoption, and glory, and the promises, and all the rest.

That despite how things looked, it was...

6. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

He is relating the principle that things do not look as they appear.

And he is relating that to us Gentiles even now, thus his words in Romans 11:

25. For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

You need to carefully restudy all this out in light of the passages alone.

 

[Danoh]

"...until after Jesus' resurrection!" Can you show me any one who was an eyewitness to the resurrection of Jesus?" I am asking because Paul himself confessed to his disciple Timothy that the resurrection of Jesus, was according to his - Paul's - own gospel. (II Tim. 2:8) Obviously, there must have been another gospel at the time which would not speak of Jesus' resurrection. If you ask me, it was the very gospel of the Apostles of Jesus which Paul considered false apostles. (II Cor. 11:13)

Paul is relating another aspect of the resurrection of Christ, at the same time that he is affirming what His resurrection had settled as to His having been of the seed of David, Acts 2; Romans 1; 2 Tim. 2.

Paul is asserting that God had kept an aspect of the resurrection of Christ hidden - an aspect that would make possible how God would also reclaim those fallen Heavenly places; 1 Cor. 2:7-8; Eph. 1:10; Eph. 6:12.