ECT A Question For the Preterists

SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

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SaulToPaul said:
I do not know of a number, but this grace is different than the kind you've been given.


Genesis
6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
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:idunno:
 
JudgeRightly

JudgeRightly

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Interplanner said:
I believe the Bible, it is not 2P2P.
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The following two verses are the antitheses of each other:

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. - James 2:24 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James2:24&version=NKJV

But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, - Romans 4:5 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans4:5&version=NKJV

Please explain (without using any commentaries) how one can simultaneously be made righteous by works in addition to faith AND be made righteous by faith with no works.
 
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I

Interplanner

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JudgeRightly said:
The following two verses are the antitheses of each other:

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. - James 2:24 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James2:24&version=NKJV

But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, - Romans 4:5 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans4:5&version=NKJV

Please explain (without using any commentaries) how one can simultaneously be made righteous by works in addition to faith AND be made righteous by faith with no works.
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It's very simple. Paul did not mean a dead faith (a body without a spirit, to use James' word-picture). Why would he? Stop reading so damned literally and use your imagination. Those are words and grammar, not numbers and math formulas.
 
I

Interplanner

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Right Divider said:
If you believed the Bible, you'd be a Mid-Acts dispensationalist.
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There is no offer of a Judaistic, Davidic restored kingdom in the NT by Christ. Every announcement he made is about the new creation and kingdom, not in the old sense. The whole pursuit of MAD is a farce. It was never offered. it was misconceived as being offered by the masses (Jn 12:34), the leaders, the crowds and the disciples who were very slow and foolish hearted to believe what he actually said, Lk 24.
 
Right Divider

Right Divider

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Interplanner said:
There is no offer of a Judaistic, Davidic restored kingdom in the NT by Christ. Every announcement he made is about the new creation and kingdom, not in the old sense. The whole pursuit of MAD is a farce. It was never offered. it was misconceived as being offered by the masses (Jn 12:34), the leaders, the crowds and the disciples who were very slow and foolish hearted to believe what he actually said, Lk 24.
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Your confusion reigns supreme and your fairy story will not allow you to see the truth.
 
SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Interplanner said:
There is no offer of a Judaistic, Davidic restored kingdom in the NT by Christ. Every announcement he made is about the new creation and kingdom, not in the old sense. The whole pursuit of MAD is a farce. It was never offered. it was misconceived as being offered by the masses (Jn 12:34), the leaders, the crowds and the disciples who were very slow and foolish hearted to believe what he actually said, Lk 24.
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Was the faith of Christ dead?
 
SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Interplanner said:
There is no offer of a Judaistic, Davidic restored kingdom in the NT by Christ. Every announcement he made is about the new creation and kingdom, not in the old sense. The whole pursuit of MAD is a farce. It was never offered. it was misconceived as being offered by the masses (Jn 12:34), the leaders, the crowds and the disciples who were very slow and foolish hearted to believe what he actually said, Lk 24.
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He introduced the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven. But this did not nullify the promises of a kingdom on the earth when he returns. He simply introduced an entrance into the City as kings and priests.
 
JudgeRightly

JudgeRightly

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Interplanner said:
It's very simple. Paul did not mean a dead faith (a body without a spirit, to use James' word-picture). Why would he?
Let's see if reading in context makes a difference.

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. - James 2:14-26 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James2:14-26&version=NKJV

What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised.And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised. - Romans 4:1-12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans4:1-12&version=NKJV

Note the differences between how Paul and James speak.

Stop reading so damned literally and use your imagination.
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Use my imagination? Why would I possibly want to use my imagination to interpret Scripture? No wonder your interpretation is off, it's because you've "imagined" something that isn't real. The Bible isn't just a collection of ideas that can be taken however you please or can dream up. Words have consequences, and the Bible has many words that, if interpreted wrong, can cost a person their soul.

Those are words and grammar, not numbers and math formulas.
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What happens when you take something that was said as a figure of speech literally? It tends to bring confusion.

For example, when someone says, "Let's hit the road," they don't really mean walk outside and pound their fist on the pavement. They mean "Let's start traveling."

What happens when you take something that was meant literal as a figure of speech? That also brings confusion.
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