Is "The Day of the Lord" in Zechariah 14, the same "The Day of the Lord" that Paul spoke of in 1 Thess 5:2?
(1 Thess 5:2) For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
ECT A Question For the Preterists
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
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Is "The Day of the Lord" in Zechariah 14, the same "The Day of the Lord" that Paul spoke of in 1 Thess 5:2?
(1 Thess 5:2) For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
Right Divider
Body part
"the day of the Lord" does not refer to a single literal day. It refers to a time of His judgment on the earth.
The "coming as a thief in the night" refers to its sudden appearance. Why is this a supposed problem?
Interplanner
Well-known member
RD wrote:
Just like the angel in Acts 1 said that He would.
There is no such reference to Mt Olives, and the next line is that the power of the kingdom was going to be given to them without any particular timeframe. They were simply to wait and pray until it started. It would take them by surprise and did, at Pentecost. It's all the kingdom of God from then on.
2P2P thinks it can glom its doctrines on here or anywhere it chooses, but it is wrong, is a fraud and is a cult.
Just like the angel in Acts 1 said that He would.
There is no such reference to Mt Olives, and the next line is that the power of the kingdom was going to be given to them without any particular timeframe. They were simply to wait and pray until it started. It would take them by surprise and did, at Pentecost. It's all the kingdom of God from then on.
2P2P thinks it can glom its doctrines on here or anywhere it chooses, but it is wrong, is a fraud and is a cult.
Right Divider
Body part
You really are completely ignorant of what the Bible says:
Acts 1:9-12 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:9) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. (1:10) And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; (1:11) Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. (1:12) Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
How did you get so dumb?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_of_Olives
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
His nose is buried in the dusty books of men, rather than THE Book
musterion
Well-known member
Interplanner
Well-known member
Is there a necessary connection between the locations? No. In v8 they were 'together.' Oops, he didn't tell us where. They were probably in lots of places over the 40 days.
Besides, I know of no place where the 'return' of Christ is as kindly and pillowy as what you are saying. He arrives, spitting fire, destroys the place and installs the NHNE in a blink.
How did you get so inattentive?
Right Divider
Body part
Are you really this stupid? I mean REALLY? A six year old can understand this, but you cannot!
It matters NOT where they were during the first 39.999 days. When the LORD Jesus Christ ascended into the clouds, He was on the MOUNT OF OLIVES, also know as MOUNT OLIVET. That Bible CLEARLY show us this.
Acts 1:6-12 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:6) When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? (1:7) And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. (1:8) But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. (1:9) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. (1:10) And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; (1:11) Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. (1:12) Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
Go back to grade school and learn some reading comprehension.
Zechariah 14 describes Christ's return trip.
:french:
Ha ha ha ha ha ha..... you are a RIOT!
Interplanner
Well-known member
Seriously does any NT passage describe the return like that? Maybe he meant he would be making other visits.
But I see no connection that mandates that they were at Olivet for that discussion. There are lots of breaks in Luke-Acts with huge scene shifts and there is nothing in Greek or english that connect two scenes, almost like a modern movie.
the mistake of 2P2P because it has so little to go on, and zilch support from the NT, is to try to find little bitty pieces like this and say they are connected, no matter how much contradicts the weight of the rest of Scripture.
The same is true of how Mt 23's 'until you say 'blessed...'. It doesn't matter to 2P2P that some of the followers had just done that; it is a 'magical expression' that will happen in a specific time slot in future Jerusalem.
Right Divider
Body part
Once AGAIN, you have this idea that every prophecy must repeated somewhere between Matthew--Revelation or it's cancelled. That is idiotic, like most of what you say here.
It makes no sense otherwise.
- Jesus is speaking to them.
- Jesus ascends into the clouds.
- An angel explain what it means and that Jesus will return IN LIKE MANNER.
- Then we are told that they where on the Mount of Olives.
Every word in the WORD is there for a reason. It's not like your dusty books.
Acts 1:12 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:12) Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
The THEN clearly connects THIS return from what had JUST happened.
You have SO many problem simply believing the Bible.
I guess that the word THEN is missing from your "Bible" or "books about".
We simply believe the Bible AS WRITTEN, whereas you need your "dusty books interp".
You're in the ditch again. I have no idea what your problem is here.
Interplanner
Well-known member
re Acts 1 coming and going:
Well, wouldn't it make sense that if the PASSAGE is drawing a comparison between his going and coming that they actually compare?
re the clouds:
yes on coming with clouds, but there are probably 10 passages that say he is to be seen/known by all the world and it happens in a blink, so I doubt if the connection of the return is to Olivet. You are trying to find a corner for a Judaistic set of events when there is none.
re then:
Then in actual time, or then in the telling of the next important item in the story. did the angels say it has to be Olivet? Why not? the same WAY is not the same LOCATION, is it?
re Mt 23:
instead of reading the flow of the story (several followers had just sung Ps 118 to Jesus in that week), 2P2P thinks this is a Prediction. All he meant was that his followers believe he is the promised Messiah; most in Judaism say he is not. 2P2P says this a Prediction that at some amazing point in the distant future this whole event is going to happen 'all over again.' and they usually line it up with 'all Israel will be saved' even though 'all' usually means 'all' not a slice of the population alive X000 years in the future.
They really strain for those Predictions of Exact Events. They think Jesus is almost constantly thinking in terms of the distant future X000 years away instead of what is going on right around him. It helps them feel good about 2P2P. Judaism gets to come back into practice after everyone has forgotten how it was dissembled by the Gospel, by Paul's preaching and by events in Judea in the 1st century.
Well, wouldn't it make sense that if the PASSAGE is drawing a comparison between his going and coming that they actually compare?
re the clouds:
yes on coming with clouds, but there are probably 10 passages that say he is to be seen/known by all the world and it happens in a blink, so I doubt if the connection of the return is to Olivet. You are trying to find a corner for a Judaistic set of events when there is none.
re then:
Then in actual time, or then in the telling of the next important item in the story. did the angels say it has to be Olivet? Why not? the same WAY is not the same LOCATION, is it?
re Mt 23:
instead of reading the flow of the story (several followers had just sung Ps 118 to Jesus in that week), 2P2P thinks this is a Prediction. All he meant was that his followers believe he is the promised Messiah; most in Judaism say he is not. 2P2P says this a Prediction that at some amazing point in the distant future this whole event is going to happen 'all over again.' and they usually line it up with 'all Israel will be saved' even though 'all' usually means 'all' not a slice of the population alive X000 years in the future.
They really strain for those Predictions of Exact Events. They think Jesus is almost constantly thinking in terms of the distant future X000 years away instead of what is going on right around him. It helps them feel good about 2P2P. Judaism gets to come back into practice after everyone has forgotten how it was dissembled by the Gospel, by Paul's preaching and by events in Judea in the 1st century.
Right Divider
Body part
Cute... more rambling opinions. I especially like the "probably" in your "argument". Real smooth.
Please PROVE that "there are probably 10 passages that say he is to be seen/known by all the world and it happens in a blink"
Give us the scripture that backs up this vague opinion.
This passage is IRRELEVANT to our discussion and is just another of your attempted distractions. If you want to discuss THAT passage, start another thread about it.
Nobody but God knew how far in the future those prophecies would be fulfilled. You are just a dusty book cancellationist that cannot handle rightly dividing the word of truth.
Interplanner
Well-known member
RD wrote:
Please PROVE that "there are probably 10 passages that say he is to be seen/known by all the world and it happens in a blink"
The 2nd coming in judgement is a complete event from arrival to NHNE including the judgement of all in a moment.
I Cor 15:51. the blink of an eye, start to finish in immortality.
2 Thess 2:8. The one breath of his mouth. that's quick.
I Thess 4:17. Notice how immediately the permanent future state sets up, like the Cor 15 passage
I thess 5:2. Thieves work quickly.
Rev 1:7. coming seen by all at once
Mt 24:30. all nations see it at once.
Mt 24:27. All see it, and quickly. At least in the old days, 'lightning' quick use to mean something...
Oops about the 10. There's others I'm sure.
Please PROVE that "there are probably 10 passages that say he is to be seen/known by all the world and it happens in a blink"
The 2nd coming in judgement is a complete event from arrival to NHNE including the judgement of all in a moment.
I Cor 15:51. the blink of an eye, start to finish in immortality.
2 Thess 2:8. The one breath of his mouth. that's quick.
I Thess 4:17. Notice how immediately the permanent future state sets up, like the Cor 15 passage
I thess 5:2. Thieves work quickly.
Rev 1:7. coming seen by all at once
Mt 24:30. all nations see it at once.
Mt 24:27. All see it, and quickly. At least in the old days, 'lightning' quick use to mean something...
Oops about the 10. There's others I'm sure.
Interplanner
Well-known member
On the last item here, that's a fair point, although if you know Paul (through Luke), there is not even an allowance that the 2nd coming would happen very far after the destruction of Jerusalem; look at the middle of I cor 7 where he says 'dont' bother getting married.'. They did know the DoJ was due in that generation, and it happened as planned, Lk 23:27.
On Mt 23
there is no need for another thread; the illustration was about the ridiculous distraction of 2P2P. And you show yourself to be quite uncomfortable with that; good! Keep it up.
re cancelation. Yeah: 'he brings those wretches to a wretched end.' Canceled. The vineyard went to others.
I know, you're going to say: But IP, right there in the text, can't you see the OTHER or SECOND vineyard, because 2P2P is always about find OTHER or SECOND things in a text that aren't there except for them, that help them feel good about 2P2P and 'make sense' out of the Bible.
Right Divider
Body part
Why is it SOOOOOO hard for you to simply QUOTE the scripture that you're "referring" to?
I'm not following your "interp" on that one.
You do know that God gave Israel time AFTER these statements and AFTER the resurrection to repent, right?
Luke 13:6-9 (AKJV/PCE)
(13:6) ¶ He spake also this parable; A certain [man] had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. (13:7) Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? (13:8) And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung [it]: (13:9) And if it bear fruit, [well]: and if not, [then] after that thou shalt cut it down.
Prove this with SCRIPTURE.
What is this "vineyard"?
Who are these "others"?
No more vague claims which amount to nothing more than your poorly equipped opinions.
At least you've clearly admitted your cancellationist bent. You make God a liar.
:nono:
Israel: God's kingdom of priests on the earth.
Body of Christ: God's ambassadors seated in heavenly places.
I'm sorry that this is beyond your comprehension.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Paul through Luke,
well, why don't you just get more familiar with the Bible? There's probably 20 times when Luke says something about what is coming, and the end of the world is expected right after the destruction of Jerusalem. I thought a smart guy like you could not be bothered with the main one, ch 21. Then there's the hundreds of scattered times Paul says something about the 2nd coming and it always seems soon. Or marana tha, in which quick is one of the two words, lol!
time after the resurrection
yeah, there is a little time after that. The termination warnings sure came quick! Acts 3: if you don't listen to the prophet-like-Moses, you will be disinherited.
the vineyard
Sorry I can't back up that far. it is all obvious. You know, of course, because you are so familiar with the bible, that there is a top notch 'play' on the word 'ethne' here. God is going to work with another 'ethne' but it is not a race, because it is people who have faith. The parable is too obvious in meaning.
the liar
It does not make God a liar at all. It means he's serious about his threats. If he didn't make good on them, he'd be a liar.
There is nothing at all in the NT that he "needs" to do them over, fix things, do the promises to David. There's just Acts 13 quoting isaiah, saying they (promises to David) have all be transferred to Christ and his mission to the nations--David's tent. you are way behind.
heaven and earth,
no the division is a ridiculous violation of all that the NT is saying, especially in key unifiying passages like eph 2-3, Gal 3, Rom 10, Heb 12, etc.
Right Divider
Body part
I'm quite familiar with the Bible, just not your twisted perverse take on it.
Here we go AGAIN.... Mr. VagueProbably. SHOW THEM!
:juggle:
The entire nation disinherited? No, I don't see that there.
Perhaps you missed a few verses here and there.
When speaking to "the chief priests and the elders of the people" in the temple (Matt. 21:23), Jesus told them this:
Matt 21:43 (AKJV/PCE)
(21:43) Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Was Jesus wrong? Did these people (chief priests and elders) NOT have the kingdom of God? How could it be TAKEN from THEM if they did NOT have it?
Luke 12:31-32 (AKJV/PCE)
(12:31) ¶ But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you. (12:32) Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
Was Jesus wrong here also? Do you, somehow, think that the kingdom is verse 32 is a different kingdom than the one in verse 31?
I have to ASSUME (since you don't actually QUOTE the scripture that you vaguely "refer" to) that this is what you're talking about:
Acts 3:22-26 (AKJV/PCE)
(3:22) For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. (3:23) And it shall come to pass, [that] every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. (3:24) Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. (3:25) Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. (3:26) Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
There is NO national disinheritance there. Those that do not repent are destroyed FROM AMONG THE PEOPLE.... guess which THE PEOPLE that refers to.
:juggle:
What about His promise that the people of Israel shall dwell safety in their land for ever?
Ezek 37:25-28 (AKJV/PCE)
(37:25) And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, [even] they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David [shall be] their prince for ever. (37:26) Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. (37:27) My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. (37:28) And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
Once again, you confirm your TUNNEL VISION.
Once again, you do NOT even have the slight clue what the "NT" is.
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Interplanner
Well-known member
You want to be able to criticise for vague and then you are the only person who has ever attempted to have a 'corner' on the term NT that is different from the NT. You're exhausting.
You are the only person I know who can look at the parable of the vineyard and miss it.
You are lazy as a student. In Luke and Acts you would just think of the times a 2nd coming is mentioned; its all that generation. He/Paul does not have the allowance that Matt has in 24 or Mk 13's parable with 4 options. For Paul it is right away.
What could possibly be vague about 'marana tha'?
When the threat of disinheritance was made, most of them were dis'd. The little remnant of faith continues on in the blessing of the Gospel which is where it was all going.
There is no separate program for the land apart from the Gospel; that is clearly folly and it is also very recent (from the 1900s) and poorly planned out.
So again, you think you have victories and are happy and congratulating yourself, but it is dust and crumbles.
Interplanner
Well-known member
You can stop already with the fav OT passages about David's promises, because you never factor in what the NT says. The official line of the NT is in Acts 13, quoting Isaiah, and they were transfered to Christ so his mission would go to all the nations. that is what Israel was supposed to do--in the parable of the vineyard. You missed it.
Interplanner
Well-known member
As far as I can tell, your God would be lying to tell Israel that the tabernacle and all the events of its history were only shadows and copies of the Reality that was coming. That's what you think is a lie.