a look at Jeremiah 7:21-8:3

BenAvraham

Active member
JEREMIAH 7:21-8:3; 9:22,23

Adonai states that "In the beginning" when Israel left Egypt, he did not talk about animal sacrifices when the 10 Commandments were given. There is not one single commandment in the "Decalog" which required animal sacrifices. The only animal sacrifice before arriving at Sinai was in Egypt. The sacrificial lambs and goats at Passover.

The reason for the animal sacrifices/offerings was that there had to be a "substitute" for the payment of sin. Since the "wages of sin is death" then, the animals would be those "substitutes" and instead of the offerer being judged guilty of sin, the penalty was passed on to the animal. The animal's throat was cut and the blood spilled on the Brazen Altar. This was symbolic of Messiah Yeshua's death on the Cross of Calvary, the "Passover Lamb" who was slain on our behalf. So, the whole idea of the animal sacrificial system was to "shadow" the coming of Messiah Yeshua/Jesus who would "fulfill" all those sacrifices in one day, on the day of Passover 2000 years ago.

Adonai speaks to Yirimyahu (Jeremiah) telling Israel to repent and return to God, yet God told him that Israel would not listen to him. So sad, that was the case. Sacrifices were continued but without true repentance. Kind of like the Mafia big bosses murdering and gunning down people, and then going to mass at church and confessing before the priests (if they even did that).

Israel was taken into slavery to live in Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar, and only many years later did a remnant return to Israel. We need to get back to God today through true repentance, from the heart and not just with words. Adonai did not ask for sacrifices when he took his people out of Egypt, only obedience to his voice and words, yet Israel failed to obey. The “Korbanot” were HIS way to point his people back to him through Yeshua, the “Emet” (Truth), and the foundation stone from the beginning.

MARK 13:1-37

Yeshua tells his Talmidim/disciples about the future. “The end is near,” he tells them. Yet many will say; “Well, that was thousands of years ago, and the end is not in sight!”

We need to remember that our perspective of time is not the same perspective of Adonai’s time. If one thousand years are like a day, then, in reality, time is of no matter to YHVH. Yeshua is saying that “Many will come in my name”. We see that it is true with many false Messiahs, false cults, false doctrines, “adding” to the Word of God saying, “Yeshua isn’t enough, you need…”

Many cults and denominations change God’s Word to fit their beliefs and mis-interpret original words. When we listen to preachers and teachers, we must ask ourselves, “Is this what God’s Word is really saying?” does it support solid Bible doctrine, if it does not, then it is mere commentary, “man’s opinion, nothing more.

I believe the best way to understand God’s word is to get back to the original language and culture to understand what the original writers were saying. Yeshua is coming back, are you ready? We must live and prepare our lives as if Yeshua will return in the far future yet be ready if He returns tomorrow. It is good to make plans, yet YHVH has the final say.

Shavua tov...Have a blessed week.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Always need to be prepared for the Lord's return.
Those in the body of Christ will be removed from the earth before the Lord's return to the earth. But Ben refuses to quote from the epistles that will tell you about it... Paul's epistles.

1Thess 4:13-18 (AKJV/PCE)​
(4:13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. (4:14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (4:15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (4:16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (4:17) Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (4:18) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.​
 

Bradley D

Well-known member
Those in the body of Christ will be removed from the earth before the Lord's return to the earth. But Ben refuses to quote from the epistles that will tell you about it... Paul's epistles.

1Thess 4:13-18 (AKJV/PCE)​
(4:13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. (4:14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (4:15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (4:16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (4:17) Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (4:18) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.​
I'm referring to my everyday life. To live in the spirit and not the flesh. There is the daily living with the temptations/tribulations. I want to live according to the Word. Out of the heart comes comes the evil imaginations. Thanks to the Holy Spirit and having the commandments written on my heart I'm able to push the evil thoughts that arise aside. When it is time for me to depart this world I want to belong to the Father and the Lord. One Day At A Time!
 

Clete

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JEREMIAH 7:21-8:3; 9:22,23

Adonai states that "In the beginning" when Israel left Egypt, he did not talk about animal sacrifices when the 10 Commandments were given. There is not one single commandment in the "Decalog" which required animal sacrifices. The only animal sacrifice before arriving at Sinai was in Egypt. The sacrificial lambs and goats at Passover.

The reason for the animal sacrifices/offerings was that there had to be a "substitute" for the payment of sin. Since the "wages of sin is death" then, the animals would be those "substitutes" and instead of the offerer being judged guilty of sin, the penalty was passed on to the animal. The animal's throat was cut and the blood spilled on the Brazen Altar. This was symbolic of Messiah Yeshua's death on the Cross of Calvary, the "Passover Lamb" who was slain on our behalf. So, the whole idea of the animal sacrificial system was to "shadow" the coming of Messiah Yeshua/Jesus who would "fulfill" all those sacrifices in one day, on the day of Passover 2000 years ago.

Adonai speaks to Yirimyahu (Jeremiah) telling Israel to repent and return to God, yet God told him that Israel would not listen to him. So sad, that was the case. Sacrifices were continued but without true repentance. Kind of like the Mafia big bosses murdering and gunning down people, and then going to mass at church and confessing before the priests (if they even did that).

Israel was taken into slavery to live in Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar, and only many years later did a remnant return to Israel. We need to get back to God today through true repentance, from the heart and not just with words. Adonai did not ask for sacrifices when he took his people out of Egypt, only obedience to his voice and words, yet Israel failed to obey. The “Korbanot” were HIS way to point his people back to him through Yeshua, the “Emet” (Truth), and the foundation stone from the beginning.

MARK 13:1-37

Yeshua tells his Talmidim/disciples about the future. “The end is near,” he tells them. Yet many will say; “Well, that was thousands of years ago, and the end is not in sight!”

We need to remember that our perspective of time is not the same perspective of Adonai’s time. If one thousand years are like a day, then, in reality, time is of no matter to YHVH. Yeshua is saying that “Many will come in my name”. We see that it is true with many false Messiahs, false cults, false doctrines, “adding” to the Word of God saying, “Yeshua isn’t enough, you need…”

Many cults and denominations change God’s Word to fit their beliefs and mis-interpret original words. When we listen to preachers and teachers, we must ask ourselves, “Is this what God’s Word is really saying?” does it support solid Bible doctrine, if it does not, then it is mere commentary, “man’s opinion, nothing more.

I believe the best way to understand God’s word is to get back to the original language and culture to understand what the original writers were saying. Yeshua is coming back, are you ready? We must live and prepare our lives as if Yeshua will return in the far future yet be ready if He returns tomorrow. It is good to make plans, yet YHVH has the final say.

Shavua tov...Have a blessed week.
Jesus didn't merely say that "the end was near", He explicitly stated that "there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." This was recorded in three of the four gospels, Matthew, Mark and Luke.

I'm curious, how do you deal with that prophecy?
 

Derf

Well-known member
Jesus didn't merely say that "the end was near", He explicitly stated that "there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." This was recorded in three of the four gospels, Matthew, Mark and Luke.

I'm curious, how do you deal with that prophecy?
Some people deal with it the way Peter did:
[2Pe 1:16-17 KJV] 16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

He said they made known to his audience the power and COMING of our Lord Jesus Christ, and explained that they (Peter and some others) were "eyewitnesses" of His majesty.

"Majesty" denotes kingship, and therefore a kingdom. "Coming" is self-explanatory in your context. Peter was certainly alive when he witnessed Jesus on the mount of transfiguration. But others in Jesus' audience did not see the vision of Christ's transfiguration, and died before the coming was completed. Thus, they weren't of those who "shall not taste of death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."
 

Clete

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Some people deal with it the way Peter did:
[2Pe 1:16-17 KJV] 16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

He said they made known to his audience the power and COMING of our Lord Jesus Christ, and explained that they (Peter and some others) were "eyewitnesses" of His majesty.

"Majesty" denotes kingship, and therefore a kingdom. "Coming" is self-explanatory in your context. Peter was certainly alive when he witnessed Jesus on the mount of transfiguration. But others in Jesus' audience did not see the vision of Christ's transfiguration, and died before the coming was completed. Thus, they weren't of those who "shall not taste of death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."
Peter was not making any reference to Jesus' statement. The transfiguration happened before Jesus' prophecy and it had nothing to do with Jesus coming in His Kingdom. Peter was talking about God the Son's coming in the flesh, (i.e. the incarnation) and more specifically, Peter is making direct reference to the beginning of Jesus' Earthly ministry when He was baptized by John in Matthew chapter 3, some fifteen chapters earlier than Jesus' prophesy in Matthew 18.

In short, Jesus was not saying (in Matthew 18), "Some of you standing here, who were there when I was baptized by John the Baptist haven't died yet." That doesn't work at all.
 

Derf

Well-known member
Peter was not making any reference to Jesus' statement. The transfiguration happened before Jesus' prophecy and it had nothing to do with Jesus coming in His Kingdom. Peter was talking about God the Son's coming in the flesh, (i.e. the incarnation) and more specifically, Peter is making direct reference to the beginning of Jesus' Earthly ministry when He was baptized by John in Matthew chapter 3, some fifteen chapters earlier than Jesus' prophesy in Matthew 18.

In short, Jesus was not saying (in Matthew 18), "Some of you standing here, who were there when I was baptized by John the Baptist haven't died yet." That doesn't work at all.
You probably ought to reread the accounts. Here's an excerpt from Mark:
Mark 9:1 — And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. 2. And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.

Not only is it exactly 1 verse later, but the text explains that it was 6 days later in real time.

And you'll have to explain why Peter was in the holy mount with Jesus when Jesus was in the Jordan with John:
2 Peter 1:18 KJV — And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
 
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Clete

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You probably ought to reread the accounts. Here's an excerpt from Mark:
Mark 9:1 — And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. 2. And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.

Not only is it exactly 1 verse later, but the text explains that it was 6 days later in real time.

And you'll have to explain why Peter was in the holy mount with Jesus when Jesus was in the Jordan with John:
2 Peter 1:18 KJV — And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
Okay, I was clearly not on my best footing yesterday! For some reason, I had it in my head that the "some standing here" prophecy was in Matthew 18, not Matthew 16 and I just forgot completely that God made the same "This is my beloved Son..." comment at the transfiguration that He had made in Matthew 3. So, let's just forget that I posted that last post! 🙈🙉🙊

Explain to me how it makes sense for Jesus to making a big deal about how some of those standing there would still be alive in six weeks? Why would anyone say such a thing? This weekend, when you go to church and are sitting in your Sunday School class, stand up and tell the group you're with that you have a prophesy to make. Then when they're all in hushed silence in anticipation of your prophesy, tell them all that there are some in that room who will not taste death before Flag Day (June 1st) 2025. If even one of them lasts that long, you'll have blown Christ's prophesy out of the water by a full order of magnitude (60 weeks rather than a mere 6).

It seems pretty obvious that Jesus was not predicting that there were some standing there who would survive another month and a half. Thus, II Peter 1:16-17 is not referencing the same event that Jesus was talking about.
 
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Derf

Well-known member
Okay, I was clearly not on my best footing yesterday! For some reason, I had it in my head that the "some standing here" prophecy was in Matthew 18, not Matthew 16 and I just forgot completely that God made the same "This is my beloved Son..." comment at the transfiguration that He had made in Matthew 3.
If you look closely, you will see that the recorded words on the Mount are slightly different from what Peter wrote. On the Mount God said "This is my beloved Son. Hear Him", according to the 2 Gospel accounts that recorded it. So the confusion is somewhat expected.
So, let's just forget that I post that last post! 🙈🙉🙊
Forgotten.
Explain to me how it makes sense for Jesus to making a big deal about how some of those standing there would still be alive in six weeks?
Worse, it was 6 days, not weeks.
Why would anyone say such a thing?
You should ask Peter.
This weekend, when you go to church and are sitting in your Sunday School class, stand up and tell the group you're with that you have a prophesy to make. Then when they're all in hushed silence in anticipation of your prophesy, tell them all that there are some in that room who will not taste death before Flag Day (June 1st) 2025. If even one of them lasts that long, you'll have blown Christ's prophesy out of the water by a full order of magnitude (60 weeks rather than a mere 6).

It seems pretty obvious that Jesus was not predicting that there were some standing there who would survive another month and a half. Thus, II Peter 1:16-17 is not referencing the same event that Jesus was talking about.
What I think Peter is referencing is not a single event, but a slew of events that heralded the kingdom's beginning. These may have included the transfiguration, which is like an anointing by prophets, but better, the triumphal entry, the cleansing of the temple, and even the crucifixion, where the Roman authorities recognized and advertised Jesus' kingship. It continued with Jesus' victory over the enemy (death), and His ascension to the Father's throne, when He left the kingdom in the hands of His chosen 12, filling them with His Spirit just like He had done with Saul and David.

While we don't know how many that heard His proclamation had died before Pentecost, we know of at least one...Judas.

But there's more. The meaning of clean vs unclean was revealed, sacrifices were stopped (because the one they pointed to had been accomplished), the world was "turned upside down", and more that I'm not thinking of right now.

So, since Peter spoke of the transfiguration as being about Jesus' coming, but not everyone there saw it 6 days later, it applies to other aspects of His coming as well.

I'm not opposed to considering the idea that some of the plans were delayed by the rejection and lack of repentance of the Jews, but I'm not ready to say that Jesus was so oblivious to those possibilities that He would make such a rash prediction of the kingdom's full initiation within their lifetimes.
 

Clete

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If you look closely, you will see that the recorded words on the Mount are slightly different from what Peter wrote. On the Mount God said "This is my beloved Son. Hear Him", according to the 2 Gospel accounts that recorded it. So the confusion is somewhat expected.

Forgotten.

Worse, it was 6 days, not weeks.

You should ask Peter.

What I think Peter is referencing is not a single event, but a slew of events that heralded the kingdom's beginning. These may have included the transfiguration, which is like an anointing by prophets, but better, the triumphal entry, the cleansing of the temple, and even the crucifixion, where the Roman authorities recognized and advertised Jesus' kingship. It continued with Jesus' victory over the enemy (death), and His ascension to the Father's throne, when He left the kingdom in the hands of His chosen 12, filling them with His Spirit just like He had done with Saul and David.

While we don't know how many that heard His proclamation had died before Pentecost, we know of at least one...Judas.

But there's more. The meaning of clean vs unclean was revealed, sacrifices were stopped (because the one they pointed to had been accomplished), the world was "turned upside down", and more that I'm not thinking of right now.

So, since Peter spoke of the transfiguration as being about Jesus' coming, but not everyone there saw it 6 days later, it applies to other aspects of His coming as well.

I'm not opposed to considering the idea that some of the plans were delayed by the rejection and lack of repentance of the Jews, but I'm not ready to say that Jesus was so oblivious to those possibilities that He would make such a rash prediction of the kingdom's full initiation within their lifetimes.
I still see no correlation between Peter's comment and Christ's prophecy!

And you're right 6 days makes it far worse than if it had been six weeks! (I really don't know what's happening with my reading comprehension!!)

Why would I ask Peter? Peter didn't give the prophesy, Jesus did. Why would it ever even occur to someone to say out loud that there are some there that would still be alive next week? No one would do that! Jesus was very definitely not talking about the transfiguration.
 

Derf

Well-known member
I still see no correlation between Peter's comment and Christ's prophecy!
Then let me repeat it again with some additional points.

Jesus' prophecy was about His kingdom, right? Here's the verse we're talking about:
[Mar 9:1 KJV] 1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

And for completeness, here's the previous verse:
[Mar 8:38 KJV] 38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

It is reasonable to conclude, as you have done, that when Jesus refers to the kingdom coming and the Son of man coming it is the same thing, but is that the only option? No, in fact Jesus seems to indicate a difference when He first talks about coming "in the glory of the Father with the holy angels" and the kingdom coming "with power".

Here's Jesus talking about the disciples receiving "power":
[Act 1:8 KJV] 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

We know that Jesus is speaking of the Holy Spirit coming upon the believers at Pentecost. Is that the kingdom coming "with power"? Perhaps, but it doesn't seem to be the whole of the kingdom.

And you're right 6 days makes it far worse than if it had been six weeks! (I really don't know what's happening with my reading comprehension!!)
Yes, but most did not see the transfiguration, including 9 of the 12. And it could be argued that the kingdom didn't fully come "with power" until Paul spread the gospel to the Gentiles, since through him the word was preached to heathen kings and "the world was turned upside down". And by that time, some indeed had "tasted of death", such as James, and certainly a few others (not necessarily of the 12, but in the group Jesus was speaking to.
Why would I ask Peter? Peter didn't give the prophesy, Jesus did. Why would it ever even occur to someone to say out loud that there are some there that would still be alive next week? No one would do that! Jesus was very definitely not talking about the transfiguration.
Jesus gave the prophecy...through Peter...to Mark, according to many theologians (since we're referring to the Gospel of Mark).

Why would Jesus give the prophecy that way, you ask? Can you explain to me the reasons why multitude prophecies in the Old Testament were shrouded in mystery? Why would not Jesus, the author of the OT prophecies, also speak in somewhat clouded language sometimes when prophesying? Maybe part of the mystery of prophecy is that it must be able to hold true under multiple scenarios, which is central to Open Theism, imo.

But to immediately resort to the idea that Jesus was wrong or mistaken, or that God changed His mind, tends to put Jesus' abilities as creator God, speaking by the Spirit of God, in question.
 
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JudgeRightly

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Then let me repeat it again with some additional points.

Jesus' prophecy was about His kingdom, right? Here's the verse we're talking about:
[Mar 9:1 KJV] 1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

And for completeness, here's the previous verse:
[Mar 8:38 KJV] 38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

It is reasonable to conclude, as you have done, that when Jesus refers to the kingdom coming and the Son of man coming it is the same thing, but is that the only option? No, in fact Jesus seems to indicate a difference when He first talks about coming "in the glory of the Father with the holy angels" and the kingdom coming "with power".

Here's Jesus talking about the disciples receiving "power":
[Act 1:8 KJV] 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

We know that Jesus is speaking of the Holy Spirit coming upon the believers at Pentecost. Is that the kingdom coming "with power"? Perhaps, but it doesn't seem to be the whole of the kingdom.


Yes, but most did not see the transfiguration, including 9 of the 12. And it could be argued that the kingdom didn't fully come "with power" until Paul spread the gospel to the Gentiles, since through him the word was preached to heathen kings and "the world was turned upside down". And by that time, some indeed had "tasted of death", such as James, and certainly a few others (not necessarily of the 12, but in the group Jesus was speaking to.

Jesus gave the prophecy...through Peter...to Mark, according to many theologians (since we're referring to the Gospel of Mark).

Why would Jesus give the prophecy that way, you ask? Can you explain to me the reasons why multitude prophecies in the Old Testament were shrouded in mystery? Why would not Jesus, the author of the OT prophecies, also speak in somewhat clouded language sometimes when prophesying? Maybe part of the mystery of prophecy is that it must be able to hold true under multiple scenarios, which is central to Open Theism, imo.

But to immediately resort to the idea that Jesus was wrong or mistaken, or that God changed His mind, tends to put Jesus' abilities as creator God, speaking by the Spirit of God, in question.

I think a lot of the questions on this thread can be answered, or at least, context provided, by https://opentheism.org/verses.

Related specifically to this, categories 1, 7, 8, 10, 11, 15, 17, 18, 19, 20, 23, 25, 31, 32, and 33, I think are the most relevant.
 

Clete

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Then let me repeat it again with some additional points.

Jesus' prophecy was about His kingdom, right? Here's the verse we're talking about:
[Mar 9:1 KJV] 1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

And for completeness, here's the previous verse:
[Mar 8:38 KJV] 38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

It is reasonable to conclude, as you have done, that when Jesus refers to the kingdom coming and the Son of man coming it is the same thing, but is that the only option? No, in fact Jesus seems to indicate a difference when He first talks about coming "in the glory of the Father with the holy angels" and the kingdom coming "with power".

Here's Jesus talking about the disciples receiving "power":
[Act 1:8 KJV] 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

We know that Jesus is speaking of the Holy Spirit coming upon the believers at Pentecost. Is that the kingdom coming "with power"? Perhaps, but it doesn't seem to be the whole of the kingdom.
We do not know that Jesus is talking about Pentecost. It has the same problem as the theory you've presented concerning the transfiguration. Pentecost was only week or two away. Pentecost occurred 50 days after the resurrection which was only a week to ten days after the transfiguration which was 6 days after Jesus' prophecy.

Yes, but most did not see the transfiguration, including 9 of the 12. And it could be argued that the kingdom didn't fully come "with power" until Paul spread the gospel to the Gentiles, since through him the word was preached to heathen kings and "the world was turned upside down". And by that time, some indeed had "tasted of death", such as James, and certainly a few others (not necessarily of the 12, but in the group Jesus was speaking to.
I understand the desire to spiritualize Jesus' prophesy but it isn't necessary to do so and there is no biblical reason to do it at all. Israel was not given their kingdom because they hated the King and so Jesus, the Son of Man, wasn't ever seen by anyone coming into His Kingdom - period.

Jeremiah 18:5 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: 6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will repent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will repent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

Jesus gave the prophecy...through Peter...to Mark, according to many theologians (since we're referring to the Gospel of Mark).
The prophesy is recorded in three of the four gospels and whether it was through Peter or not, isn't relevant anyway.

Why would Jesus give the prophecy that way, you ask? Can you explain to me the reasons why multitude prophecies in the Old Testament were shrouded in mystery?
I know the answer to the question. The question answers itself unless someone has a need for it not too.

Why would not Jesus, the author of the OT prophecies, also speak in somewhat clouded language sometimes when prophesying?
The Apostles had the same question. Jesus specifically answers this question himself.

Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”​
11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:​
‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,​
And seeing you will see and not perceive;​
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.​
Their ears are hard of hearing,​
And their eyes they have closed,​
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,​
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,​
So that I should heal them.’​
16 But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; 17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

Jesus was not speaking to anyone other than His apostles when He gave the "some standing here" prophesy and the text makes it clear that Jesus was speaking to then quite plainly not just about His coming to be King but Judgement Day itself...

Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

This very obviously never happened. It will happen but certainly hasn't happened yet and it is because Israel was cut off, their prophesied Kingdom put on hold and God turned instead to the Gentiles through Paul who was not the thirteenth Apostle for Israel but the first and only Apostle to the Gentiles who was sent to the whole world, whether Jew or Greek, to preach that Gospel which "from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;" (Ephesians 3)

But to immediately resort to the idea that Jesus was wrong or mistaken, or that God changed His mind, tends to put Jesus' abilities as creator God, speaking by the Spirit of God, in question.
Jesus was neither mistaken nor wrong. His quick return was precisely the plan. Everything was going exactly according to Israel's prophesied program right up to and including Pentecost, by the way. Peter himself preached to Israel after Pentecost and told them to repent so that God would send Jesus back (Acts 3:19-20).

But they did not repent! At least not in sufficient numbers (i.e. not as a nation). In fact, the nation of Israel's leaders officially rejected their King when Stephen, using "irresistible wisdom" (Acts 6:10), was put on trial and after having been just scorched by Stephen's testimony, they responded, not by repenting but by executing Stephen. The very next thing that happens is that Saul, he would would soon become Paul, enters the story and the rest, as they say, is history.

Thus, God did "change His mind" and rightly so! (I put "change His mind" in quotes because I strongly believe that God expected this to happen - see (Luke 13:6-9)) I quoted the applicable passage once already but it bears doing so again....

Jeremiah 18:9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will repent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.​
This is explained in detail in Romans 9. Indeed, many think Romans 9 is talking about predestination, of all things! It isn't! It's talking about the cutting off of Israel and why that happened. Romans 9 is Jeremiah 18 applied to Israel and as such, those two chapters are, perhaps, the two most important chapters in all of scripture when it comes to understanding the plot (i.e. the story line) of the bible.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 
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Derf

Well-known member
I think a lot of the questions on this thread can be answered, or at least, context provided, by https://opentheism.org/verses.

Related specifically to this, categories 1, 7, 8, 10, 11, 15, 17, 18, 19, 20, 23, 25, 31, 32, and 33, I think are the most relevant.
It's a good list (and thanks for compiling), but I think some don't apply. For instance:
1 - God Hopes His Prophecies of Judgment will Fail
This one doesn't apply, because if Christ was talking about judgment of something bad the people did, He expressed it in terms that were favorable, where His disciples would be expectant and hopeful about His return, rather than dreading. The dreading case would be the case that applies to this category.

There are a number of others in your list, and some might apply a bit, but the upshot is that Jesus was predicting His return IN SPITE of the rejection of the spiritual leaders that was recorded in the previous verses. If that's the case, why then would He then give a timeline for something He knew was not likely to happen as planned?
 

Derf

Well-known member
We do not know that Jesus is talking about Pentecost. It has the same problem as the theory you've presented concerning the transfiguration. Pentecost was only week or two away. Pentecost occurred 50 days after the resurrection which was only a week to ten days after the transfiguration which was 6 days after Jesus' prophecy.


I understand the desire to spiritualize Jesus' prophesy but it isn't necessary to do so and there is no biblical reason to do it at all. Israel was not given their kingdom because they hated the King and so Jesus, the Son of Man, wasn't ever seen by anyone coming into His Kingdom - period.

Jeremiah 18:5 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: 6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will repent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will repent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.


The prophesy is recorded in three of the four gospels and whether it was through Peter or not, isn't relevant anyway.


I know the answer to the question. The question answers itself unless someone has a need for it not too.


The Apostles had the same question. Jesus specifically answers this question himself.

Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”​
11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:​
‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,​
And seeing you will see and not perceive;​
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.​
Their ears are hard of hearing,​
And their eyes they have closed,​
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,​
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,​
So that I should heal them.’​
16 But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; 17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

Jesus was not speaking to anyone other than His apostles when He gave the "some standing here" prophesy
This is demonstrably not true:
[Mar 8:34 KJV] 34 And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
That verse is a mere 5 verses earlier than Mark 9:1, and is the lead-in to it, despite being in the previous chapter. And that invitation would have made little sense if only the 12 were in view, who were already committed to following Christ no matter the consequences (not that they were able to follow through very well, but they were personally committed).

and the text makes it clear that Jesus was speaking to then quite plainly not just about His coming to be King but Judgement Day itself...

Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

This very obviously never happened.
I'm not sure we've reached that point in our dialog, since that's what the disagreement is about. Your assuming that Jesus meant His second coming in vs 28 (as He does in vs 27), but you haven't shown that. Remember He was crowned King (crown of thorns) and labeled as King of the Jews (placard on the cross), and He defeated the enemy (death) to gain the glory and reign.
It will happen but certainly hasn't happened yet and it is because Israel was cut off, their prophesied Kingdom put on hold and God turned instead to the Gentiles through Paul who was not the thirteenth Apostle for Israel but the first and only Apostle to the Gentiles who was sent to the whole world, whether Jew or Greek, to preach that Gospel which "from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;" (Ephesians 3)


Jesus was neither mistaken nor wrong. His quick return was precisely the plan. Everything was going exactly according to Israel's prophesied program right up to and including Pentecost, by the way. Peter himself preached to Israel after Pentecost and told them to repent so that God would send Jesus back (Acts 3:19-20).
If their repentance was necessary, then how was it according to plan up until that time? Was God causing their wickedness??
But they did not repent! At least not in sufficient numbers (i.e. not as a nation). In fact, the nation of Israel's leaders officially rejected their King when Stephen, using "irresistible wisdom" (Acts 6:10), was put on trial and after having been just scorched by Stephen's testimony, they responded, not by repenting but by executing Stephen. The very next thing that happens is that Saul, he would would soon become Paul, enters the story and the rest, as they say, is history.

Thus, God did "change His mind" and rightly so! (I put "change His mind" in quotes because I strongly believe that God expected this to happen - see (Luke 13:6-9)) I quoted the applicable passage once already but it bears doing so again....

Jeremiah 18:9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will repent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.​
This is explained in detail in Romans 9. Indeed, many think Romans 9 is talking about predestination, of all things! It isn't! It's talking about the cutting off of Israel and why that happened. Romans 9 is Jeremiah 18 applied to Israel and as such, those two chapters are, perhaps, the two most important chapters in all of scripture when it comes to understanding the plot (i.e. the story line) of the bible.

Resting in Him,
Clete
But we can see that Jesus thought there were obvious concerns about the future of the kingdom, like here:
[Mat 21:41 KJV] 41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out [his] vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

This was before He was crucified, and it seems like His intent, if they say, "This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance," was that they would be destroyed and the vineyard given to others (Gentiles?). Remember this is a parable about the "kingdom", after His authority (as the son of the vineyard owner) was questioned, after He had been hailed as the Messiah, the son of David. So if He already knows that the spiritual leaders are going to reject Him and murder Him, and that because of that they would be destroyed and the vineyard given to someone else, why would He prophesy that the Kingdom was imminent...unless it's not talking about the physical kingdom?
 

JudgeRightly

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(and thanks for compiling)

I'm not the one who compiled it.

That would be Will Duffy. It's his site.

but I think some don't apply. For instance:
1 - God Hopes His Prophecies of Judgment will Fail
This one doesn't apply, because if Christ was talking about judgment of something bad the people did, He expressed it in terms that were favorable, where His disciples would be expectant and hopeful about His return, rather than dreading. The dreading case would be the case that applies to this category.

There are a number of others in your list, and some might apply a bit, but the upshot is that Jesus was predicting His return IN SPITE of the rejection of the spiritual leaders that was recorded in the previous verses. If that's the case, why then would He then give a timeline for something He knew was not likely to happen as planned?

The categories I mentioned were for the entire thread, not just the prophecies concerning Israel's coming kingdom.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
It's a good list (and thanks for compiling), but I think some don't apply. For instance:
1 - God Hopes His Prophecies of Judgment will Fail
This one doesn't apply, because if Christ was talking about judgment of something bad the people did, He expressed it in terms that were favorable, where His disciples would be expectant and hopeful about His return, rather than dreading. The dreading case would be the case that applies to this category.

There are a number of others in your list, and some might apply a bit, but the upshot is that Jesus was predicting His return IN SPITE of the rejection of the spiritual leaders that was recorded in the previous verses. If that's the case, why then would He then give a timeline for something He knew was not likely to happen as planned?
The time line was set in place prophetically centuries before.
 
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