10 things I'm right about, whether you agree or not.

[Sealeaf]

Hi Becky!

I affirm that there are brain diseases, but like I said, the mind is not the brain. There are no diseases of the mind. Things do go wrong with the brain, but depression is not a brain disease. It is not a disease at all. Anxiety can make you sick, and it can show up on scans (as you pointed out) with variances in brain activity. In fact, all kinds of emotions can change brain activity, but they are not diseases. That is what the medical profession has been told, and that is what they tell their patients, but the evidence does not support it. There is no biological test to determine that someone has depression.

I don't really want to make several long posts that no one will read, but allow me to give some basics from a biblical perspective. I will start another thread for open discussion Here

Also, I can provide you with several books and articles from some of the leading medical professionals in this country that have debunked the pseudo science of psychiatry. If there is a legitimate problem with the brain, then treat the brain, but that is not what is being done regarding these so-called "mental illnesses". In fact, you only have to go to the websites of anyone who supports the ideas that these "illnesses" exist. They will tell you that counseling is very effective in treating them. Ask your doctor how effective "counseling" is on a real disease. Ask them how effective counseling is on curing diabetes or cancer.


I have spent many years studying this, and I can assure you that the idea of mental illness is one of the biggest hoaxes ever perpetrated on man.

You are mistaken about how "disease" is identified. "Disease" is identified by symptoms and signs, not phyisical deformaty. Symptoms are things the patient complains of and signs are things the practitioner observes, like temperature and pulse rate. The symptoms of diabetes are excessive urination, excessive thirst and excessive eating. As you can see, these are behaviors that the patient performs. A practioner observes the behaviors and makes the diagnosis.

A depressed person has: changed sleep pattern, usually insomnia, decreased appetite frequently with weight loss, feelings of helplessness, hopelessness, lack of energy, enjoyable activities are no longer fun, concentration and decision making are increasingly difficult, suicidal ideation, frequently with attempts to end their own life, agitation, and sometimes physically slowed movements. A person with 5 or more of these symptoms is diagnosable as depressed. A practioner observes the behaviors and makes the diagnosis. Just like a physical illness, because it is a physical illness.

 

[Mystery]

You are mistaken about how "disease" is identified. "Disease" is identified by symptoms and signs, not phyisical deformaty. Symptoms are things the patient complains of and signs are things the practitioner observes, like temperature and pulse rate. The symptoms of diabetes are excessive urination, excessive thirst and excessive eating. As you can see, these are behaviors that the patient performs. A practioner observes the behaviors and makes the diagnosis.

A depressed person has: changed sleep pattern, usually insomnia, decreased appetite frequently with weight loss, feelings of helplessness, hopelessness, lack of energy, enjoyable activities are no longer fun, concentration and decision making are increasingly difficult, suicidal ideation, frequently with attempts to end their own life, agitation, and sometimes physically slowed movements. A person with 5 or more of these symptoms is diagnosable as depressed. A practioner observes the behaviors and makes the diagnosis. Just like a physical illness, because it is a physical illness.

That is a bold face fabrication, and you know it. You can play the same game with astrology and psychics.

You can get ideas about diseases from symptoms that the patient expresses, but diseases are real, not imagined.

 

[Balder]

What do you mean by "real"? I have a feeling you mean physical. If mind is conceptual, then of course mental disorders will be conceptual as well; and I expect what you're calling an "imagined illness" is the disordered thought that marks mental illness or dysfunction.

Also, if you think mind is wholly independent of the brain, admitting that the brain can be physically ill but denying that that has any impact on mind, then how do you explain injuries to the brain disturbing individuals' ability to think, remember, emote, reason?

 

[Adamhart]

1. A Christian cannot lose salvation.

2. The sacrifice of Jesus was not "limited", but for all men, for all time.

3. God wants all men to be saved, not just a predetermined "elect".

4. Paul did not struggle with sin post conversion.

5. The creation was a literal 6 days (24 hours).

6. There is no such thing as "mental" illness.

7. Time is a measurement between two events.

8. Jesus is God manifested in the flesh.

9. No man is justified by works

10. Salvation is an exchanged life, not a changed life.


:cheers:

I can agree to that.:cheers:

 

[Psalmist]

You could link your thread on the topic.

Since you are dogmatically right on so many things, can I have a stock market tip?

Kimberly-Clark

SCI

 

[Mystery]

What do you mean by "real"? I have a feeling you mean physical. If mind is conceptual, then of course mental disorders will be conceptual as well; and I expect what you're calling an "imagined illness" is the disordered thought that marks mental illness or dysfunction.

Also, if you think mind is wholly independent of the brain, admitting that the brain can be physically ill but denying that that has any impact on mind, then how do you explain injuries to the brain disturbing individuals' ability to think, remember, emote, reason?

Greetings Balder!

You and I have hashed this out in the past, and I'm not really that interested in doing so again.

However, here are some books I recommend on the subject that will give a fairly good synopsis of my views. Having discovered them recently, they have done an excellent job of reinforcing what I already knew to be true. I'm sure you can order them from your library.

Blaming the Brain - Elliot Valenstein, Ph.D. (Highly recommended)

Myth of Psychotherapy - Thomas Szasz

Myth of Mental Illness - Thomas Szasz (a must read!)

Manufacture of Madness - Thomas Szasz

Mad In America - Robert Whitaker

Making Us Crazy, DSM: The Psychiatric Bible and the Creation of Mental Disorders - Herb Kutchins and Stuart A. Kirk

The ADHD Fraud: How Psychiatry Makes “Patients” Out of Normal Children - Fred A. Baughman Jr., MD

Manufacturing Victims - Dr. Tana Dineen (This is a great read!)

If you are serious about understanding why I say what I do about this subject, just take the time to read one of these books, and then we can further our discussion.

 

[Balder]

Mystery,

I just looked on the web and read a number of Szasz's views. I do not disagree with some of his social criticism of psychiatric practice, the pathologizing of certain behaviors, etc. I'm familiar with some of these arguments through the work of Michel Foucault. But I think he goes too far and generalizes too much. While some of the values of scientism do influence the interpretation of certain types of behavior, at least by some mainstream practitioners (labeling spiritual phenomena as manifestations of schizophrenia, for instance), I think he is going too far when he says that all of the things currently labeled "mental illness" are just behaviors which are not socially accepted, for one reason or another. People really do find themselves acting compulsively and unconsciously, having internal mental conflicts which they cannot navigate or solve on their own. The "self" and our mental structures do not exist absolutely, in some unchanging fashion for all time: they are things that grow and develop over time, and thus having at least some structural components, different things (events, abuses, physical problems) can impinge upon and disrupt this development. The earlier in one's development these things happen, the greater the disruption or disorder appears to be -- the more foundational.

You may know that I prefer an integral approach to life, one which honors personal/soul/psychological issues, physical/biological issues, interpersonal/cultural issues, and interobjective/social/systemic issues equally, not confusing the phenomena or issues or appropriate modalities in one of these areas for another. That is one reason why I was asking you about what you were labeling as "real" (in relation to the question of illness). As an approach which deals with mental, conceptual, psychological issues, psychology will naturally have a different range of phenomena to deal with than biological science. I think reductionism in either direction -- only biological phenomena are real or important, or only mental/spiritual phenomena are real and important -- is mistaken, and I also think it is misguided to believe that these things have absolutely no relation to one another. Either approach -- reductionism or absolute dualism -- is non-integral, and in my opinion, will lead to the confusion that appears to be present in Szasz's analyses.

Best wishes,

Balder

 

[Cracked]

I have spent many years studying this, and I can assure you that the idea of mental illness is one of the biggest hoaxes ever perpetrated on man.

Yet depression can manifest itself in physical illness - as can anxiety, etc. as even you state above. Do you also realize that these so called "mental illnesses" can be the result of a brain injury as well, or other physical illness? Do you also realize that the brain can malfunction, such as in the case of true ADHD? Do you realize that death can occur as a result of mental illness, such as in the case of the anorexia? Do you realize that developmental disability and mental illness many times go hand in hand? Do you really think victims of pica eat nails and feces because they lack integrity?

So, what would you do with them, I wonder Mystery? How do you cure what does not actually exist? At least psychiatrists can treat these conditions, if nothing else. You - you apparently have harsh words for it...

 

[godrulz]

Some of these issues are semantical.

We can certainly find fault with psychology and questionable concepts and practices. There is a trend to label everything a mental illness to promote a pill to fix it.

Francis Schaeffer rightly observes that man will be psychologically dysfunctional when isolated from God. Psychology has limited insights with limited value. Only regeneration and a relationship with God will make man whole in spirit, soul (will, intellect, emotions), and body.

 

[Mystery]

Some of these issues are semantical.

We can certainly find fault with psychology and questionable concepts and practices. There is a trend to label everything a mental illness to promote a pill to fix it.

Francis Schaeffer rightly observes that man will be psychologically dysfunctional when isolated from God. Psychology has limited insights with limited value. Only regeneration and a relationship with God will make man whole in spirit, soul (will, intellect, emotions), and body.

Being "psychologically dysfunctional" is not a disease. Schaeffer has good advice.

 

[godrulz]

Time to seal my fate in mystery's bad books:

1. A Christian cannot lose salvation.

A believer may become an apostate or fall away, as Scripture sternly warns about. A Christian, a believer, is secure in Christ (unless they defiantly renounce and reject the person and work of Christ to the end). Score: 0/1

2. The sacrifice of Jesus was not "limited", but for all men, for all time.

TULIP is wrong. You are right. Score: 1/2

3. God wants all men to be saved, not just a predetermined "elect".

The elite elect limits God's love and provision. Score: 2/3

4. Paul did not struggle with sin post conversion.

I will have to disagree with sinless perfectionism/antinomian theories. Score: 2/4

5. The creation was a literal 6 days (24 hours).

This is the biblical and scientific evidence. Score: 3/5

6. There is no such thing as "mental" illness.

Semantics. Based on your narrow definitions, maybe. Based on my 20 year pre-hospital career, many are crazy out there. Score: 3.5/6

7. Time is a measurement between two events.

Time is other things. If you are saying timelessness is incoherent and that time is not a created thing, we agree. Score: 4.5/7

8. Jesus is God manifested in the flesh.

Incarnation. He is one person with two natures, the God-Man. Score: 5.5/8

9. No man is justified by works

Faith all the way (Eph. 2:8-10). Score: 6.5/9

10. Salvation is an exchanged life, not a changed life.

Both/and, not either/or. Salvation is also described with other terms and principles (actually, 'exchanged life' is a Georgism, not explicit Bible verse).

Score: 7/10

Since this score puts me in the lake of fire, I will now earn bonus points.


Looks and personality: 8/10
Black Belt: 9/10
B. Th. degree: 10/10

I'm in like Flint!

Wait....

Popularity: -1= 9/10

Knowing and loving Jesus as Lord and Savior: 100/10

Romans 8:1
Jude 24-25
Jn. 3:16
I Jn. 5:11-13

 

[johncalvinhall]

1. A Christian cannot lose salvation.

If that Christian is truly saved, then yes, I agree with you. Sad to say, too many people call themselves "Christian" but it's in name only.

2. The sacrifice of Jesus was not "limited", but for all men, for all time.

3. God wants all men to be saved, not just a predetermined "elect".

I agree!

4. Paul did not struggle with sin post conversion.

Huh? Yow! Both Paul and every other Christian struggles with sin, until we go on to be with the Lord.

5. The creation was a literal 6 days (24 hours).

I agree

6. There is no such thing as "mental" illness.

I don't think I agree with this one. Man is made up of body, soul, and spirit. I believe that each one can be ill. When the body is sick, we need a physician. When the spirit is sick, we need the Great Physician, Jesus Christ. I also believe that when the soul (mind, will, emotions) can be sick by incorporating lies into your thinking. This is where you need to focus on the truth and get rid of the lies! Sad part is, people actually think that if we mentally accept the truths of Scripture, we obtain salvation (Intellectual acceptance of Scripture), but the danger lies in the potential fact that though intellectually the person believes in Jesus, they never place their faith in Him.

It is this very hypothesis that all atheists, agnostics, and pagans are mentally ill. Once they turn to Christ, we need to lovingly and carefully teach them the truth of God's Word, and heal their mental illness.

7. Time is a measurement between two events.

8. Jesus is God manifested in the flesh.

9. No man is justified by works

I agree.

10. Salvation is an exchanged life, not a changed life.

Interesting. Not quite sure what you mean...

 

[godrulz]

7/10 Mr. JohnC. You must now go to mystery's lake of fire even though you know and love Jesus.

Give yourself 3 points for looks and you might get to his heaven.

 

[Lighthouse]

7/10 Mr. JohnC. You must now go to mystery's lake of fire even though you know and love Jesus.

Give yourself 3 points for looks and you might get to his heaven.

Wrong thread, nitwit.

 

[Lighthouse]

Huh? Yow! Both Paul and every other Christian struggles with sin, until we go on to be with the Lord.

Nope. We are free from sin. It is no longer a struggle.

 

[Mystery]

Wrong thread, nitwit.

He is such a doofus, he doesn't even know where he is at, let alone what he believes.

 

[Cracked]

Wrong thread, nitwit.

Give me a break...

 

[Balder]

Sozo, I read up on Szasz and responded to you. Do you not have any response?

 

[Mystery]

I have no idea what you said.

 

[SUTG]

10 things I'm right about, whether you agree or not.

Get over yourself.