IMJerusha
New member
Monotheism is a concept of man. The One True God of Israel just is.
İ'm a 18 year old know-it-all Muslim. Ask me anything!
- Thread starter Repentance
- Start date
Monotheism is a concept of man. The One True God of Israel just is.
Let the Lord see. We agree!
IMJerusha
New member
Except that your lord is not the One True God of Israel and neither Muhammad nor his teaching have any part of the One True God of Israel. So, what the One True God sees is an infidel thinking he knows it all.
Except that you really don't want me to believe in the One True God.
everready
New member
i want you to believe in the true God Repentance, Jesus said this shortly before He was crucified..
John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
You can read the rest of what He said in this link..
http://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-bible-text/Joh-17.html
everready
John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
You can read the rest of what He said in this link..
http://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-bible-text/Joh-17.html
everready
IMJerusha
New member
Because allah isn't the One True God of Israel.
csuguy
Well-known member
I've already gone over the fact that the Trinity and this concept of Jesus being of one substance/essence as the Father is unscriptural, so I won't go into that further here.
However, the above demonstrates one of the superiorities of Christianity to Islam: we are able to acknowledge that we are children of God; our theology is not driven by fear of misunderstanding on the part of others. One of the problems the Jewish people had in the OT was that they continually separated themselves from God by such actions. They refused to be in God's presence - hence Moses acted as mediator. When the encounter left a fading glow on Moses' face, they were scared so that he had to wear a veil. They even demanded a King like the neighboring countries - placing yet another mediator between them and God.
You make a mistake by rejecting the relationship of being God's child and friend, and instead simply refer to yourself as his servant - you are placing an unnecessary veil between you and God. And for what? For fear of others misunderstanding you?
Of course Christians come together and worship God as a congregation. Most churches come together at least once a week for services, as well as other study sessions and worship activities throughout the week. In the scriptures, Christians as a whole are referred to as the Body of Christ. The scriptures also say -
Matthew 18:20 For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.
God forgives freely - but there are requirements attached to the gift. Will God not be angry with you if he shows you mercy, and then you turn around and act mercilessly to your fellowman? God loves all equally, and is thus just. He won't forgive one who refuses to repent and forgive others, whom he also loves.
Matthew 18:23-35 “For this reason the kingdom of heaven [v]may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. 24 When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him [w]ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25 But since he [x]did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made. 26 So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’ 27 And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the [y]debt. 28 But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred [z]denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe.’ 29 So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’ 30 But he was unwilling [aa]and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed. 31 So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from [ab]your heart.”
On the part of the repentant, if he be forgiven, it is enough. This does not make the debt/damage go away however. If you are forgiven for murder - shall the victim live? If you steal and betray - will the forgiveness undo the treachery you committed? No - the one who forgives agrees to take on the debt for you. If you stole, the one you stole from must bear the burden of what was lost.
And a better question would be: what could be worse than to forget and stamp upon the memory of one who died for your sins? To dishonor one who paid such a price for you - how great a sin! And since he was sent by God - to dishonor Christ is to dishonor God himself.
Jesus does not rival God - he serves him as his Son. Anything he has, he was given by God. He himself explicitly declares that God is greater, and that he can do nothing by himself.
The necessity of blood was a lesson soon learned by the sons of the first human couple. The time came for both Abel and Cain to bring their sacrifices before God (Gen. 4:3-16). Cain offered for sacrifice the fruit of his labors in the field. The offering was vegetable, and it was bloodless. Abel brought a blood-offering taken from his flock. When God passed judgment on the two types of offerings, that of Cain was rejected, and that of Abel was accepted. So a lesson was taught: One cannot approach God by whatever means one chooses. It is man who sinned and offended the holy God; it is God who must do the forgiving. Therefore, it is not for man to choose the means of forgiveness, but for God, and God has chosen the means to be blood. Cain had chosen to approach God in his own way, but he was rejected. Abel chose the way God demanded, and his sacrifice was accepted.
As biblical history develops in the Book of Genesis, we find that all the ones with whom God was pleased came to Him by means of blood. Noah immediately offered up blood sacrifices when he left the ark. He was followed by other great men in Jewish history: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, all of whom were careful to approach God by means of blood. When Moses received the Law at Mount Sinai, the redemptive element of blood ran throughout the entire Law with its 613 commandments.
A great summary statement for the entire Law is found in The Third Book of Moses, Leviticus 17:11: For the life of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that makes atonement by reason of the life. It can easily be said that all of the Law revolves around this one statement. There were commandments which God gave in the Law that were to be obeyed. Disobedience was sin. If disobedience did take place, the means of atonement for the sin was blood. The Book of Leviticus opens by giving great detail to the different types of blood-sacrifices. All of these different sacrifices had the same purpose: that the Jew might be rightly related to God.
All seven feasts of Israel: Passover, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits, Pentecost, Trumpets, Day of Atonement, and Tabernacles required the shedding of blood. The Yom Kippur or Day of Atonement ceremony was greatly detailed in Leviticus 16, where careful instructions are given for the shedding of blood to atone for the sins of the Jewish nation. The Tabernacle and the Temple both were built to expedite and to make efficient the required shedding of blood for the atonement of the people's sins. The Holy of Holies that contained the Shechinah Glory, the visible manifestation of the presence of God, could be entered only once a year by only one man, the high priest. In order for him to enter, he had to have the blood of the Yom Kippur sacrifice with him, and this blood had to be sprinkled on the Ark of the Covenant, which contained the tablets of the Law itself.
This is detailed in Leviticus 16:15-17: Then shall he kill the goat of the sin-offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the veil, and do with his blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy-seat, and before the mercy-seat: and he shall make atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleannesses of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions, even all their sins: and so shall he do for the tent of meeting, that dwells with them in the midst of their uncleannesses. And there shall be no man in the tent of meeting when he goes in to make atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the assembly of Israel. And so the principle stood throughout the remainder of Old Testament history . But it was a burden to the individual. These blood-sacrifices had to be repeated year in and year out and they had to be done in the Temple at Jerusalem. For the Jews living elsewhere in the country , miles from Jerusalem, it was a burden to come every year to offer their sacrifices to the Lord for the atonement of their sins. Only the faithful few , those whom the prophets referred to as the Remnant, loved God and His Law enough to do so in spite of the burden it created.
Others built their own altars on mountains and hills closer to home and offered their sacrifices there. But no atonement was granted at these rival altars, and the prophets of God railed against these practices and condemned this deviation from the Law of God. Many had failed to learn the lesson of Cain: that one cannot come to God for forgiveness in any way one may choose, but one must come in the way God Himself has chosen.
It was Isaiah the Prophet who first provided the hope that the day would come when the yearly burden would be lifted. In Isaiah 53, God declared that the Suffering Servant, the Messiah, would be the sacrifice for sin.
In Isaiah 53:10-11 we read: Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; he has put him to grief: when you shall make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by the knowledge of himself shall my righteous servant justify many; and he shall bear their iniquities. The point of Isaiah 53 is basically this: the animal sacrifices under the Mosaic Law were intended to be of temporary duration, a temporary measure only. God's intent was for there to be one final blood-sacrifice and that would be the sacrifice of the Messiah Himself.
That is why Isaiah 53 uses the same type of wording, figures and emphasis found in the Book of Leviticus. For example, in verse 10b we have the expression: you shall make his soul an offering for sin.
This is a sacrificial concept; these are words that come out of the Mosaic Law itself.
And in verse 11b we read: by the knowledge of himself shall my righteous servant justify many; and he shall bear their iniquities. Not only are these words of sacrifice used generally in the Old Testament Law, but more specifically , we read of these very terms in Leviticus 16, which is the chapter that expounds and explains all the details regarding the Yom Kippur or Day of Atonement sacrifice.
This, then, was the reason why Messiah had to die: to provide the blood-sacrifice for sin once and for all. No longer would the Jews be burdened with the yearly sacrifices. All a person would need to do is accept the Messiah's death on his behalf and his sins are forgiven. Messiah had to die in order to provide that atonement, for blood is the means of redemption.
Another key issue is found in these two verses from Isaiah 53. There is a statement here that is somewhat confusing. Verse 11b reads: by the knowledge of himself shall my righteous servant justify many. A more literal translation from the Hebrew text would read like this: “the knowledge of him shall my righteous justify many.”
The word for knowledge is a Hebrew word that emphasizes experiential knowledge, not mere head knowledge. This is a knowledge of the heart or a knowledge of faith. Those who have a faith-knowledge of this Servant, by “the knowledge of him,” that He died for our sins, not by the knowledge of himself, He will, as a result, justify us. Justification means, “to be declared righteous.” We cannot be declared righteous unless our sins have been atoned for. Our sins can only be atoned for by the shedding of blood; the Messiah's blood would be the final blood that would be sacrificed.
Frucht
As biblical history develops in the Book of Genesis, we find that all the ones with whom God was pleased came to Him by means of blood. Noah immediately offered up blood sacrifices when he left the ark. He was followed by other great men in Jewish history: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, all of whom were careful to approach God by means of blood. When Moses received the Law at Mount Sinai, the redemptive element of blood ran throughout the entire Law with its 613 commandments.
A great summary statement for the entire Law is found in The Third Book of Moses, Leviticus 17:11: For the life of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that makes atonement by reason of the life. It can easily be said that all of the Law revolves around this one statement. There were commandments which God gave in the Law that were to be obeyed. Disobedience was sin. If disobedience did take place, the means of atonement for the sin was blood. The Book of Leviticus opens by giving great detail to the different types of blood-sacrifices. All of these different sacrifices had the same purpose: that the Jew might be rightly related to God.
All seven feasts of Israel: Passover, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits, Pentecost, Trumpets, Day of Atonement, and Tabernacles required the shedding of blood. The Yom Kippur or Day of Atonement ceremony was greatly detailed in Leviticus 16, where careful instructions are given for the shedding of blood to atone for the sins of the Jewish nation. The Tabernacle and the Temple both were built to expedite and to make efficient the required shedding of blood for the atonement of the people's sins. The Holy of Holies that contained the Shechinah Glory, the visible manifestation of the presence of God, could be entered only once a year by only one man, the high priest. In order for him to enter, he had to have the blood of the Yom Kippur sacrifice with him, and this blood had to be sprinkled on the Ark of the Covenant, which contained the tablets of the Law itself.
This is detailed in Leviticus 16:15-17: Then shall he kill the goat of the sin-offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the veil, and do with his blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy-seat, and before the mercy-seat: and he shall make atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleannesses of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions, even all their sins: and so shall he do for the tent of meeting, that dwells with them in the midst of their uncleannesses. And there shall be no man in the tent of meeting when he goes in to make atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the assembly of Israel. And so the principle stood throughout the remainder of Old Testament history . But it was a burden to the individual. These blood-sacrifices had to be repeated year in and year out and they had to be done in the Temple at Jerusalem. For the Jews living elsewhere in the country , miles from Jerusalem, it was a burden to come every year to offer their sacrifices to the Lord for the atonement of their sins. Only the faithful few , those whom the prophets referred to as the Remnant, loved God and His Law enough to do so in spite of the burden it created.
Others built their own altars on mountains and hills closer to home and offered their sacrifices there. But no atonement was granted at these rival altars, and the prophets of God railed against these practices and condemned this deviation from the Law of God. Many had failed to learn the lesson of Cain: that one cannot come to God for forgiveness in any way one may choose, but one must come in the way God Himself has chosen.
It was Isaiah the Prophet who first provided the hope that the day would come when the yearly burden would be lifted. In Isaiah 53, God declared that the Suffering Servant, the Messiah, would be the sacrifice for sin.
In Isaiah 53:10-11 we read: Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; he has put him to grief: when you shall make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by the knowledge of himself shall my righteous servant justify many; and he shall bear their iniquities. The point of Isaiah 53 is basically this: the animal sacrifices under the Mosaic Law were intended to be of temporary duration, a temporary measure only. God's intent was for there to be one final blood-sacrifice and that would be the sacrifice of the Messiah Himself.
That is why Isaiah 53 uses the same type of wording, figures and emphasis found in the Book of Leviticus. For example, in verse 10b we have the expression: you shall make his soul an offering for sin.
This is a sacrificial concept; these are words that come out of the Mosaic Law itself.
And in verse 11b we read: by the knowledge of himself shall my righteous servant justify many; and he shall bear their iniquities. Not only are these words of sacrifice used generally in the Old Testament Law, but more specifically , we read of these very terms in Leviticus 16, which is the chapter that expounds and explains all the details regarding the Yom Kippur or Day of Atonement sacrifice.
This, then, was the reason why Messiah had to die: to provide the blood-sacrifice for sin once and for all. No longer would the Jews be burdened with the yearly sacrifices. All a person would need to do is accept the Messiah's death on his behalf and his sins are forgiven. Messiah had to die in order to provide that atonement, for blood is the means of redemption.
Another key issue is found in these two verses from Isaiah 53. There is a statement here that is somewhat confusing. Verse 11b reads: by the knowledge of himself shall my righteous servant justify many. A more literal translation from the Hebrew text would read like this: “the knowledge of him shall my righteous justify many.”
The word for knowledge is a Hebrew word that emphasizes experiential knowledge, not mere head knowledge. This is a knowledge of the heart or a knowledge of faith. Those who have a faith-knowledge of this Servant, by “the knowledge of him,” that He died for our sins, not by the knowledge of himself, He will, as a result, justify us. Justification means, “to be declared righteous.” We cannot be declared righteous unless our sins have been atoned for. Our sins can only be atoned for by the shedding of blood; the Messiah's blood would be the final blood that would be sacrificed.
Frucht
Last edited:
Do ALL Christians believe this?
Then how exactly is Jesus the "Son" of God? Does he not share some divine attributes with God, for example being eternal?
Personally I believe that Jesus is a Word from God but he is a "son of God" just like the other Prophets of God.
“That the sons of God saw the daughters of men……” (Genesis 6:2)
“……when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men….”(Genesis 6:4)
“……Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:” (Exodus 4:22)
“…....for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.” (Jeremiah 31:9)
“……..which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.” (Luke 3:38)
“ I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day
have I begotten thee.” (Psalms 2:7)
He (David) will call out to me, 'You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.' 27 I will also appoint him my firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth. (Psalms 89:26-27)
“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.” (Romans 8:14)
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. (Mathew 5:9, NIV)
12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. (John 1:12-13)
The phrase is just an idiom of the Jews for a righteous servant of God and a peacemaker. The most famous verse of the Bible in the KJV is a grave defect.
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16)
“For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son , that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.” (RSV, John 3:16)
only Son = (ton huion ton monogenee)
The term "monogenee(s)" literally means of sole descent, only one of its kind, unique. Muslims too believe that Jesus is a unique word and Spirit from God.
The same relationship is there but the terminology is different. This issue is addressed in the Quran
5:17-19 They have certainly disbelieved who say that Allah is Christ, the son of Mary. Say, "Then who could prevent Allah at all if He had intended to destroy Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother or everyone on the earth?" And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them. He creates what He wills, and Allah is over all things competent.
But the Jews and the Christians say, "We are the children of Allah and His beloved." Say, "Then why does He punish you for your sins?" Rather, you are human beings from among those He has created. He forgives whom He wills, and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them, and to Him is the [final] destination.
O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger to make clear to you [the religion] after a period [of suspension] of messengers, lest you say, "There came not to us any bringer of good tidings or a warner." But there has come to you a bringer of good tidings and a warner. And Allah is over all things competent.
But the Jews and the Christians say, "We are the children of Allah and His beloved." Say, "Then why does He punish you for your sins?" Rather, you are human beings from among those He has created. He forgives whom He wills, and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them, and to Him is the [final] destination.
O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger to make clear to you [the religion] after a period [of suspension] of messengers, lest you say, "There came not to us any bringer of good tidings or a warner." But there has come to you a bringer of good tidings and a warner. And Allah is over all things competent.
I think it's clear why even though the phrase "children of God" is used in many Semitic languages and religions Islam dropped it for a reason, a very good one.
Yeah I agree with this...
“Be quick in the forgiveness from your Lord, and pardon (all) men – for Allah loves those who do good.”
[ 3:133-134]
The Prophet (peace be upon us) said:
There was a merchant who used to extend credit to people. If he found one of his customers to be in straightened means, he would say to his assistants: “Forgive them their debt, perhaps Allah will forgive us.” Allah did forgive him. [Sahīh al-Bukhārī (2078) and Sahīh Muslim (1562)]
"Allah is only merciful with those who show mercy to others." [Al-Bukhari]
And let not those of virtue among you and wealth swear not to give [aid] to their relatives and the needy and the emigrants for the cause of Allah , and let them pardon and overlook. Would you not like that Allah should forgive you? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. 24:22
And hasten to forgiveness from your Lord and a garden as wide as the heavens and earth, prepared for the righteous Who spend [in the cause of Allah ] during ease and hardship and who restrain anger and who pardon the people - and Allah loves the doers of good; 3:133-134
“Take what is given freely, enjoin what is good, and turn away from the ignorant.” (Surat al-’Araf 7:200)
The Prophet SAW asked, “What does it mean, O Gabriel?” And Gabriel AS said, “Allah commands you to forgive those who wronged you, give to those who deprived you, and keep relations with those who cut theirs with you.” [Tafsir Ibn Kathir]
Aisha RAH said: “I asked the Prophet SAW if he had ever experienced a worse day than Uhud. He answered that he had suffered a lot from those people (the idolaters) but the most painful was on the day of ‘Aqabah.” He SAW said: “I went seeking support from Ibn ‘Abd Yalil bin ‘Abd Kalal, but he spurned me. I set out wearied and grieved heedless of anything around me until I suddenly realized I was in Qarn Ath-Tha‘alib, called Qarn Al-Manazil. There, I looked up and saw a cloud casting its shade on me, and Gabriel addressing me: ‘Allâh has heard your people’s words and sent you the angel of mountains to your aid.’ The latter called and gave me his greetings and asked for my permission to bury Makkah between Al-Akhshabain, the two mountains flanking Makkah. I said in reply that I would rather have someone from their loins who will worship Allâh, the All–Mighty with no associate.” [Bukhari 1/458 and Muslim 2/109 as cited in Ar-Raheeq al-Makhtum]
‘Abdullah ibn Mas’ud said, “It is as if I could still see the Messenger of Allah talking about one of the Prophets AHS whose people beat him, making his blood flow. While he was wiping the blood from his face, he said, ‘O Allah, forgive my people. They do not know.’” [Agreed upon by Bukhari and Muslim, cited as #36 in Riyad us Saliheen by Imam Nawawi]
The Prophet said this same statement, “Oh Allah, forgive my people for they do not know,” on the day of Uhud as recorded by Imam Muslim in the chapter on battles.
etc
...
I don't believe and I can't accept the fact that God needs a ransom of a blood sacrifice to atone for my sins. Repentance is only ingredient for forgiveness from God and salvation. It is nothing but Pauline philosophy.
Prophet Abraham was about to sacrifice his son but God at the last minute replaced it with a ram. Jesus was about to sacrifice his life and prayed to God to save him, so God saved him from death.
We know you don't accept it.
Sucks to be you.
Luke 16:31 KJV
(31) And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
IMJerusha
New member
Do ALL Christians believe this?
Then how exactly is Jesus the "Son" of God? Does he not share some divine attributes with God, for example being eternal?
Personally I believe that Jesus is a Word from God but he is a "son of God" just like the other Prophets of God.
“That the sons of God saw the daughters of men……” (Genesis 6:2)
“……when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men….”(Genesis 6:4)
“……Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:” (Exodus 4:22)
“…....for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.” (Jeremiah 31:9)
“……..which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.” (Luke 3:38)
“ I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day
have I begotten thee.” (Psalms 2:7)
He (David) will call out to me, 'You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.' 27 I will also appoint him my firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth. (Psalms 89:26-27)
“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.” (Romans 8:14)
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. (Mathew 5:9, NIV)
12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. (John 1:12-13)
The phrase is just an idiom of the Jews for a righteous servant of God and a peacemaker. The most famous verse of the Bible in the KJV is a grave defect.
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16)
“For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son , that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.” (RSV, John 3:16)
only Son = (ton huion ton monogenee)
The term "monogenee(s)" literally means of sole descent, only one of its kind, unique. Muslims too believe that Jesus is a unique word and Spirit from God.
The same relationship is there but the terminology is different. This issue is addressed in the Quran
5:17-19 They have certainly disbelieved who say that Allah is Christ, the son of Mary. Say, "Then who could prevent Allah at all if He had intended to destroy Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother or everyone on the earth?" And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them. He creates what He wills, and Allah is over all things competent.
But the Jews and the Christians say, "We are the children of Allah and His beloved." Say, "Then why does He punish you for your sins?" Rather, you are human beings from among those He has created. He forgives whom He wills, and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them, and to Him is the [final] destination.
O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger to make clear to you [the religion] after a period [of suspension] of messengers, lest you say, "There came not to us any bringer of good tidings or a warner." But there has come to you a bringer of good tidings and a warner. And Allah is over all things competent.
I think it's clear why even though the phrase "children of God" is used in many Semitic languages and religions Islam dropped it for a reason, a very good one.
Yeah I agree with this...
“Be quick in the forgiveness from your Lord, and pardon (all) men – for Allah loves those who do good.”
[ 3:133-134]
The Prophet (peace be upon us) said:
There was a merchant who used to extend credit to people. If he found one of his customers to be in straightened means, he would say to his assistants: “Forgive them their debt, perhaps Allah will forgive us.” Allah did forgive him. [Sahīh al-Bukhārī (2078) and Sahīh Muslim (1562)]
"Allah is only merciful with those who show mercy to others." [Al-Bukhari]
And let not those of virtue among you and wealth swear not to give [aid] to their relatives and the needy and the emigrants for the cause of Allah , and let them pardon and overlook. Would you not like that Allah should forgive you? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. 24:22
And hasten to forgiveness from your Lord and a garden as wide as the heavens and earth, prepared for the righteous Who spend [in the cause of Allah ] during ease and hardship and who restrain anger and who pardon the people - and Allah loves the doers of good; 3:133-134
“Take what is given freely, enjoin what is good, and turn away from the ignorant.” (Surat al-’Araf 7:200)
The Prophet SAW asked, “What does it mean, O Gabriel?” And Gabriel AS said, “Allah commands you to forgive those who wronged you, give to those who deprived you, and keep relations with those who cut theirs with you.” [Tafsir Ibn Kathir]
Aisha RAH said: “I asked the Prophet SAW if he had ever experienced a worse day than Uhud. He answered that he had suffered a lot from those people (the idolaters) but the most painful was on the day of ‘Aqabah.” He SAW said: “I went seeking support from Ibn ‘Abd Yalil bin ‘Abd Kalal, but he spurned me. I set out wearied and grieved heedless of anything around me until I suddenly realized I was in Qarn Ath-Tha‘alib, called Qarn Al-Manazil. There, I looked up and saw a cloud casting its shade on me, and Gabriel addressing me: ‘Allâh has heard your people’s words and sent you the angel of mountains to your aid.’ The latter called and gave me his greetings and asked for my permission to bury Makkah between Al-Akhshabain, the two mountains flanking Makkah. I said in reply that I would rather have someone from their loins who will worship Allâh, the All–Mighty with no associate.” [Bukhari 1/458 and Muslim 2/109 as cited in Ar-Raheeq al-Makhtum]
‘Abdullah ibn Mas’ud said, “It is as if I could still see the Messenger of Allah talking about one of the Prophets AHS whose people beat him, making his blood flow. While he was wiping the blood from his face, he said, ‘O Allah, forgive my people. They do not know.’” [Agreed upon by Bukhari and Muslim, cited as #36 in Riyad us Saliheen by Imam Nawawi]
The Prophet said this same statement, “Oh Allah, forgive my people for they do not know,” on the day of Uhud as recorded by Imam Muslim in the chapter on battles.
etc
...
I don't believe and I can't accept the fact that God needs a ransom of a blood sacrifice to atone for my sins. Repentance is only ingredient for forgiveness from God and salvation. It is nothing but Pauline philosophy.
Prophet Abraham was about to sacrifice his son but God at the last minute replaced it with a ram. Jesus was about to sacrifice his life and prayed to God to save him, so God saved him from death.
This is the point you are missing; that Yeshua was fully human and fully divine, completely vulnerable like any human being and completely able and obedient as only God can be.
"Prophet Abraham was about to sacrifice his son but God at the last minute replaced it with a ram. Jesus was about to sacrifice his life and prayed to God to save him, so God saved him from death."
Again, the part that you are missing is that God DIDN't save Yeshua from death. Yeshua suffered and died because that is part of being human, birth and death. Can you not understand the incredible sacrifice God made for us by giving up the only One of His personal descent to death? Islam spits on God's sacrifice and rationalizes it away! Yes, we are all God's children because He created us but Yeshua was always with Him, part of Him. Can you possibly imagine just from a human standpoint how it must have felt for God to be apart from Yeshua in essence when that is all that has ever been? Who can fathom the immensity of that Love?
csuguy
Well-known member
Yes, Jesus is the only begotton Son of God (and yes - it is begotten. That is the literal translation. "only" or "unique" are not the literal translation of the Greek). There is no denying he has a unique relationship with God, closer than anyone. However, this doesn't equal the Trinity. It's funny actually - the Trinitarians prefer to use "only" or "unique" rather than the literal "only begotten" since Jesus being God' Son actually doesn't work all that well with them trying to assert that he is God himself.
As for what it means for him to be begotten - this is referring to the Virgin Birth:
Luke 1:26-35 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city in Galilee called Nazareth, 27 to a virgin [r]engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the descendants of David; and the virgin’s name was [t]Mary. 28 And coming in, he said to her, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord [v]is with you.” 29 But she was very perplexed at this statement, and kept pondering what kind of salutation this was. 30 The angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; 33 and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.” 34 Mary said to the angel, “How [w]can this be, since I [x]am a virgin?” 35 The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the [y]holy Child shall be called the Son of God.
It is a bad one - you are drawing a separation between you and God for the mere fear of misunderstanding. God knows your heart - he knows who is true and who blasphemes. What do you fear but the opinion of other men? Tell me how this is any less foolish than how the Jewish people built barriers between them and God: Kings & the Levitical Priesthood (the result of sin, vs the whole nation being priests) & Veils.
As for the other verses: I don't know what you are referring to about God punishing Christian/Jewish sins. God forgives if we repent.
You clearly haven't studied the OT. Paul didn't invent any such thing - it is all part in parcel with Judaism. intojoy made a good post earlier concerning the role of blood in redemption/forgiveness in the Mosaic Law. Even before that - Abraham was permitted to sacrifice a Ram in place of his Son.
And Jesus' role was prophecied long before hand:
Isaiah 53:1-12 Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He grew up before Him like a tender [a]shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.
3 He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of [c]sorrows and acquainted with [d]grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely our [e]griefs He Himself bore,
And our [f]sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
[g]Smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But He was [h]pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To [j]fall on Him.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the [k]living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?
9 His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
10 But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, [l]putting Him to grief;
If [m]He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His [n]offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the [o]good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.
11 As a result of the [p]anguish of His soul,
He will see [q]it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out [r]Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He grew up before Him like a tender [a]shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.
3 He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of [c]sorrows and acquainted with [d]grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely our [e]griefs He Himself bore,
And our [f]sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
[g]Smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But He was [h]pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To [j]fall on Him.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the [k]living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?
9 His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
10 But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, [l]putting Him to grief;
If [m]He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His [n]offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the [o]good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.
11 As a result of the [p]anguish of His soul,
He will see [q]it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out [r]Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.
The scriptures teach that the reward for sin is death - and hence death entered the world when Adam and Eve sinned. We went over before how the damage/debt of sin doesn't just disappear when one is forgiven - the one who forgives must bear the burden. If we are to live, despite a life of sin, then God, who forgives us, must deal with this debt - which he did by sending his Son to die on the cross in our place. One who lived a perfect life became sin for our sake, so that our sin would die with him.
But God would not suffer for him to stay dead - so he raised him from the dead and rewarded him greatly. And so we too, following after him, consider ourselves dead to sin and live our lives doing God's work, following Christ's teachings.
As far as I can tell so far - Islam is missing this major component from Judaism and Christianity: redemption, justice, reconciliation. It is not enough to forgive - the debt and damage of sin must be dealt with.
Or do you think repentance in of itself is sufficient to cover the debts of sin? Does repentance bring the murdered to life? Does repentance undo the pain of adultery? Does it restore what was stolen? No - repentance does none of these things in itself, the damage remains and must be dealt with.
Abraham sacrificed a Ram in his son's place: a foreshadowing of the sacrificial principles of the Mosaic Law, which were themselves a foreshadowing of the ultimate and final sacrifice made by Christ.
Jesus was about to sacrifice his life and prayed to God to save him, so God saved him from death.
Luke 22:40-44 When He arrived at the place, He said to them, “Pray that you may not enter into temptation.” 41 And He withdrew from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and began to pray, 42 saying, “Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.” 43 Now an angel from heaven appeared to Him, strengthening Him. 44 And being in agony He was praying very fervently; and His sweat became like drops of blood, falling down upon the ground.
Jesus is the suffering servant of prophecy - it was God's will that he should die, so that the rest of us might be redeemed. He did pray that, if God was willing, he might be spared this role - but even as he contemplated his death, he put God's will before his own desires and fears and accepted what needed to be done.
And this is why he is the first-fruits, why he was placed in charge of us as our Lord, on the throne of David, by God: though sent by God from heaven, though he lived a perfect life, he made himself a servant for all - putting God's will above all - and died for us. He was given a gruesome death, hated by his people, and even rejected by his disciples - as the prophecies foretold. He suffered all this for God's sake and for our sake - and so he has been raised above all (except God of course, who placed everything under him).
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No. On the contrary it has increased my faith in Islam and my disillusionment with Christianity.
No. On the contrary it has increased my faith in Islam and my disillusionment with Christianity.
Well well it sounds like you were looking for positive reinforcement of your own beliefs. Doubt will do that to you and it will keep happening. Unfortunately Islam is too demonstratively destructive.
Jedidiah
New member
How many times is "Jesus" mentioned in the Koran ?İ'm bored. Fire me on some questions and İ'll be glad to answer!
Yeah it should have been an "an".
A lot of times in his Arabicized name. Yeshua -> Esha
Jedidiah
New member
How many ? Come on, you're a "know-it-all." :up:
I have forgotten. I'm on the app and just too lazy to Google it. If I recall correctly the number is 25.