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Scripture! You must provide the SCRIPTURE when you talk about SCRIPTURE.
Exploring Jesus's Appearance in His Kingdom
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That is not who that verse is talking about.
That verse was the LORD Jesus Christ talking to His people, Israel. But the principle is the same... don't judge simply by appearances.
Irrelevant.
Irrelevant.
Derf
Well-known member
It's a nice story, but it isn't what the scriptures are saying explicitly. For one thing, according to Romans, He arose never to die again.
Romans 6:9 KJV — Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
You'll notice that it doesn't say, "having gone to heaven and received His non-mortal body..." But the emphasis on dying is compared to His immortality--meaning that He, with His resurrected body, can't die anymore. He, with His previously mortal body, is now immortal in that body.
I believe what you wrote above.
This is the part I have not had time to check whether I have any steps wrong in my previous thoughts and post.
Still don't. Sigh. I will and will get back to you. Thanks for speaking to me.
Chapter and verse? I know he was beaten badly from scripture. There could be some historical information on a scourging.
The second person of the trinity, whom Paul says is the image of the invisible God, appeared a couple of times in the "Old Testament".
I admit up front that I asked Siri for some details as I began. I just don't have the time lately to do my own search. I found a site called For the Gospel. Written by Kevin Hay Apr. 22 Christ's Earthly Ministry. What Did Jesus Do After the Resurrection?
Summing up some of the main points:
Jesus did not immediately ascend to heaven after his resurrection. The article says:
He appeared first to the women at the tomb. Then to Peter. Then to two disciples. Then to the ten disciples. Then to Thomas and finally to over 500 people.
I may disagree with this complete order because of two interesting points I have found in scripture which seem to interrupt the flow.
1.) Jesus told the woman at the tomb, --- Don't touch me. I, (Jesus being the risen Lamb of God,) have not yet ascended to the Father. IOW words: He had risen but still bore the dead flesh and was seen.
2.) Yet, later he told Thomas to look at his hands and touch the wound in his side. I asked: What transpired between the woman at the tomb and the meeting with Thomas? Don't touch versus touch?
3.) At the tomb his body was unrecognizable. With Thomas it was different. It was super-natural. It had the ability to appear and disappear and walk through walls.
This is what I think happened: The sacrificed Lamb of God, who was our Lord Jesus, went to the Father and carried his sacrificed body there to be laid on a heavenly alter. Afterwards he returned for 40 days of appearing to many on Earth.
Two things possibly happened during the period before and after he arose and took the body of the Lamb to the heavenly altar.
1.) For the three days before he went to heaven he preached in hell to lost souls. I Peter 3:18-19.
2.) Then he went to the Father and his slain body was laid on a heavenly altar. (I cannot find the scripture where I read about this!!!!)
3.) Then he returned to Earth for 40 days of appearing with a super-natural body that could appear and disappear and could walk through walls etc. This was a body Jesus bore which had not yet undergone his final glorification.
Think about this: The WORD of God, who was God and was with God, did not die ... but it was the mortal body he was given through Mary that died. That was the Sacrifice! The eternal WORD took that body to the altar of the Creator and it was given eternal life. The WORD came again to appear among mankind to show the WAY our salvation would play out. The risen Lord displayed our final hope of an eternal body we would be given.
Yet, this was not to be HIS FINAL ETERNAL GLORY! The glory HE will have when HE brings all things to an end. I'm not sure if this will be when he returns to reign for 1,000 years on an earthly kingdom, or when he finally he throws Satan into the Lake of Fire and then he reigns over the New Jerusalem eternally .... but John 17 tells us of his final glorification:
Read all of John 17:1-5
4 I, Jesus, the WORD (bearing the image of the Sacrificial Lamb,) have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
And of course the book of Revelation describes the glory of the Father and the Son as they appear within the New Jerusalem.
My opinion is this: People are prone to leave out the mysterious times when the body of the Lamb was taken to the Father and the time when The WORD of God preached to souls in hell to those who lived before the days of the flood. I suggest these things happened before the 40 days of appearing to many people.
You know I can agree with you in this manner.
The Father and I (Jesus) are ONE!
Jesus was the WORD of God, who was with God and was God.
The Father was the LORD God and spoke the WORD of God to Adam and Woman.
The WORD (The Messiah) and the Father were ONE in the beginning.
In what way? They being God shared the glorious super-natural image of God. God came walking and talking as the presence of the invisible God appearing with the SAME ONE IMAGE God created for himself to appear as Emmanuel!
Jesus explains this clearly when he made this request in a prayer: John 17:1-5
4 I (Jesus) have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had (which I shared) with thee before the world was.
IOW, just like Jesus said: When you have seen me, you have seen the Father (except my image is seen in flesh!)
The Father could have said: When you have seen me, you have seen the promised Messiah (except my image is seen with a super-natural glory).
Within Jesus's prayer, just before he was to be crucified, HE was asking the Father to allow HIM to have that same glory which he had shared with the Father before the world was!
So I agree with you: Jesus was the second personage of the God Head/Trinity, which the Spiritual God manifested of himself as a second "Emmanuel" who came among men having his own mission to accomplish.
You see, scripture does not say: No one has ever seen God the LORD Father ... but it does tell us that no one had ever before seen God the Son (the second person of the Trinity before) until God the Son arrived.
Here is an diagram of John 1:18 where it says that no one had ever seen God manifested as his own Son of flesh. To the best of my ability I have personally done this diagram.
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Thanks for explaining to me how that works. Visitors can't respond... or won't respond. Makes sense.
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Visitors can't respond, you ignoramus.
Only those that CREATE AN ACCOUNT can post here.
How many times do you have to be told?
LOL. You are so informative.
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Yes, and you are so dense.
Now, back to what I discovered in Lamentations 4:7 about the appearance of the THREE NAZERITES: There is not denying that these verses are talking about the three who visited Abram and who went down in to Sodom when destruction came. Now, I've never heard anyone deny that The LORD God himself came to greet Abram.
But it is my conclusion that all three of these super-natural sentient personages were the ONE God come as three Emanuels bearing the same ONE image which God created for his personal use within creation.
I will list the reasons I've concluded this. First are the verses in Lamentations where it describes THEIR APPEARANCE! The had the same appearance! I interpret the description this way. Blue eyes, a white creamy complexion which blushes easily like that of most deep red heads do today. I've begun to think of it like many red headed Irish people of today.
Now, what clues are seen within the events with Abram and in Sodom?
1.) Abram addressed all three as The LORD and Lords. To me that is significant for I believe YHWH ( LORD in KJE) is God's chosen name forever when he appears within creation. It is more than just addressing dignitaries with a distinguished title! LORD/Lord is the name described when The LORD appeared to Moses for the first time ever. This is the name Moses then revealed within the 5 books he wrote for the Children of Israel. Ex. 3: 14-15 God told Moses I AM the eternal God Almighty of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and my chosen name is The LORD - The LORD God. Your forefathers did not know me by that name. They only knew me a God Almighty. Exodus 6:3; Exodus 3:2,6,15
2.) When Moses wrote about God appearing to Abram ... he knew exactly the correct chosen name to use to identify the three super-natural personages.
3.) Since I understood that the invisible Spiritual ONE God had only created ONE chosen image to use to manifest his presence among creation, I understood that the THREE looked alike and were all the ONE God on a mission!
4.) This is why one Lord/LORD could stay behind with Abram and have a discussion and the other two LORDS/Lords could go into town to beging this mission.
5.) It is also why the two Lords could change their mission and go home with Lord without having rebelled again God. God the Spirit allowed them to use their free will to choose... for The LORD with Abram would come down into the town and stay the night looking around and judging the sins of the people.
6.) Now, since all THREE Lords looked alike the angry mob knew the FELLOW they had with them in the streets were with the two at Lot's house. I would think triplets would be noticed even in those days. So The LORD in the streets completed the mission the THREE were on.
7.) What I learned from this mission of THREE Lords representing God's presence could be seen as individuals having freewill to make their own choices. This is why I believe even our Lord Jesus could have chosen not to save humanity ... but instead he forgave humanity, died for our salvation, and looked forward with anticipation to what lay ahead of him. (Meaning his eternal kingdom with his family who would make him their Lord for ever.)
Now lastly, Lamentations gives us the description of God's chosen image when he appeared among men. I suggest that this was how he looked when he appeared to Abraham and sons, to Moses, to 74 children of Israel at one time, to Samson's parents, to Hagar, to the prophets in dreams and visions and as The Son of God in flesh.
But it is my conclusion that all three of these super-natural sentient personages were the ONE God come as three Emanuels bearing the same ONE image which God created for his personal use within creation.
I will list the reasons I've concluded this. First are the verses in Lamentations where it describes THEIR APPEARANCE! The had the same appearance! I interpret the description this way. Blue eyes, a white creamy complexion which blushes easily like that of most deep red heads do today. I've begun to think of it like many red headed Irish people of today.
Now, what clues are seen within the events with Abram and in Sodom?
1.) Abram addressed all three as The LORD and Lords. To me that is significant for I believe YHWH ( LORD in KJE) is God's chosen name forever when he appears within creation. It is more than just addressing dignitaries with a distinguished title! LORD/Lord is the name described when The LORD appeared to Moses for the first time ever. This is the name Moses then revealed within the 5 books he wrote for the Children of Israel. Ex. 3: 14-15 God told Moses I AM the eternal God Almighty of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and my chosen name is The LORD - The LORD God. Your forefathers did not know me by that name. They only knew me a God Almighty. Exodus 6:3; Exodus 3:2,6,15
2.) When Moses wrote about God appearing to Abram ... he knew exactly the correct chosen name to use to identify the three super-natural personages.
3.) Since I understood that the invisible Spiritual ONE God had only created ONE chosen image to use to manifest his presence among creation, I understood that the THREE looked alike and were all the ONE God on a mission!
4.) This is why one Lord/LORD could stay behind with Abram and have a discussion and the other two LORDS/Lords could go into town to beging this mission.
5.) It is also why the two Lords could change their mission and go home with Lord without having rebelled again God. God the Spirit allowed them to use their free will to choose... for The LORD with Abram would come down into the town and stay the night looking around and judging the sins of the people.
6.) Now, since all THREE Lords looked alike the angry mob knew the FELLOW they had with them in the streets were with the two at Lot's house. I would think triplets would be noticed even in those days. So The LORD in the streets completed the mission the THREE were on.
7.) What I learned from this mission of THREE Lords representing God's presence could be seen as individuals having freewill to make their own choices. This is why I believe even our Lord Jesus could have chosen not to save humanity ... but instead he forgave humanity, died for our salvation, and looked forward with anticipation to what lay ahead of him. (Meaning his eternal kingdom with his family who would make him their Lord for ever.)
Now lastly, Lamentations gives us the description of God's chosen image when he appeared among men. I suggest that this was how he looked when he appeared to Abraham and sons, to Moses, to 74 children of Israel at one time, to Samson's parents, to Hagar, to the prophets in dreams and visions and as The Son of God in flesh.
10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
In a way your posts are fascinating, the way you directly contradict what the Bible says.
21For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
I suppose you reject that he was resurrected because he didn't die. The Father poured his wrath out on the Son. The Son took our punishment which includes death, which is separation from God. Just like Adam in the garden.
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Derf
Well-known member
So you are saying that the most important sacrifice ever was a sham? It wasn't the Word who died, it was only some cast-off body He no longer needed anymore? Yet Jesus showed His disciples the scars in His hands and side, proving it was the same body that had died. He maintained that same body for at least a week (when Thomas was available to see and touch). If it wasnt the same body that rose from the dead, then our assurance of resurrection is vain, as Paul says. Because if it wasn't the same body, and that was the only part of Jesus that actually died (you said so yourself), then Jesus wasn't resurrected, and our hope is gone. This is a great blow to those whose resurrection (i.e., eternal life) was supposedly based on Jesus' resurrection (that includes all of us).
I would like to ask Wes Huff questions about some of the things in English. I saw recently "Paradise" isn't in the ancient language, he said you will be with me in the spirit world. Which is probably the same basic thing. Specifically, in Peter's letter he said he went and preached to the spirits in prison. I want to know the best rendering of whatever it said. Because prison sounds like "hell" to me. Which is the conclusion they came to in Nicea. Allegedly.
She is a fruit loop. Your comment made me think about how I would like to know certain things.
Derf
Well-known member
It is. The Greek word is παραδείσῳ, which translaterated becomes "paradiso".
Which is only true if "paradise"="spirit world".
It isn't the same. Some parts of Hades are terrible places, if the story of Lazarus and the rich man is to be taken literally. But "paradise" means "garden", I think.
Yes, I agree.
Prison sounds like death to me. The grave is a prison. But we are guaranteed that the gates of hades (the grave) will not be able to hold us in any longer, because we will prevail against them.
She speculates a lot. That's not fruity, it's healthy, as long as she then will change her speculation when scripture shows she's gone down a wrong path.
Right Divider
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Unbiblical nonsense.... again... WHICH CULT do you belong to?
No. The resurrection of Jesus was not a sham. I'm trying to explain how I see the process.
First, let me ask you some questions:
If you were to die physically do you believe your sentient spirit dies?
If so, would you describe the death of your spirit for me?
Or do you think your spirit lives on and goes somewhere else while your body turns to dust?
I believe our spirit lives on and goes somewhere else and my body turns to dust...
With Jesus this was not so. When his body died it lay in the tomb for a certain period of time. AND then up from the grave he arose and his dead body was resurrected!
Jesus, as the spiritual WORD and as God did not die. God experienced physical death for us to provide the WAY for us to follow. God's Spirit - IOWs God - did not die. God is eternal. He is LIFE and if LIFE were able to die then all things would vanish. Just saying. So, God did not die spiritually and God was able to resurrect the mortal body of Jesus.
Now, since I am wanting to discuss the appearance of God's created image when God manifested his presence within our world, I'll say I believe his final appearance went through a process.
1. First there was the body of heaven which appeared unto Adam, Abram, Isaac, Jacob, Moses and the prophets. Definitely a super-natural body. Several clues to its descriptions of is described in Exodus 24:9-11; Exodus 33:18-23; Lamentations 4:7
2. God raised the mortal body of our fleshly Messiah. This was the untouchable body that was resurrected or raised from the dead.
3. God, as the Messiah, took that sacrificed body to the altar of God and then our Lord Jesus received another body which he used to returned to earth to appear for days unto his disciples and the apostles. This was a super-natural body able to walk through walls and appear and disappear.
4. Now, there will be a fourth body. It will be glorious. Jesus prayed that he would be allowed to have that glory he once shared with the Father before the world was. John 17:5.
Did you see the truth in John 17:5 The WORD who came a our Lord Jesus speaking and etc. had shared the glorious image with the Father before the world was!
This is why Jesus could say: "When you have SEEN ME, you have SEEN the Father. Obviously they were both the ONE God.
This insight gave me the courage to believe that God could manifest his one personal image as identical multiples as it seems HE did when HE appeared unto Abraham, Lot and the angry mob in the streets of Sodom.
God is the ONE Creator ... with ONE image ... and on a singular mission in Sodom.
Derf
Well-known member
But you have little evidence to back it up. We can speculate all day long, but if we don't then back it up with scripture, there's no value in it, and in fact it can lead you away from truth.
What is my "sentient spirit"? Where do we find such language in the bible?
See above.
See above.
But where do you see that in scripture? And you should first be able to define what you mean by sentient spirit.
Anytime you say that Jesus' death and resurrection were not like ours, you run great risk of spouting false doctrine. He was the "firstborn from the dead" (Col 1:18) and the "firstfruits of them that slept" (1Cor 15:20), meaning that we will follow in His resurrection footsteps.
Why do you think "His dead body was resurrected", but "he" wasn't?
Why do you put the word "spiritual" before "WORD"? Was He not "the WORD" who became flesh and dwelt among us?
If He really was human, then His death was really like human death. It wasn't just a body, but He took on human form...FOREVER.
God's Spirit? Do you mean the Holy Spirit? Nobody said the Holy Spirit died.
But Jesus, in dying became a life-giving spirit. If He didn't die, then He didn't rise from the dead. You can't make some convenient distinction between Jesus and His body once He became human just to fit your proposed theology.
If God was able to resurrect the mortal body that you say was NOT Jesus, why do we need to have our mortal bodies resurrected? What use is it? Yet that's what the bible says will happen.
It wasn't untouchable. Other translations say "stop clinging to me", indicating that Mary was already touching Him.
Jesus did supernatural things with His body before His Resurrection, like walking on water.
Scripture doesn't help you here. There's no indication that it will be a different body.
Yes, that tells us He was with the Father before, in glory, and will be with Him again in glory, but now in Human flesh.
Or, there's nothing different about how they behave--same goals, same thoughts, same morality, etc. They can't be the same person, because they communicate with each other. Yet they are the one God.
But you should suspect and question such insight, rather than take courage from it.
Again, question your speculations and keep questioning them, lest they lead you astray