About our glorious Triune God

Z

ZacharyB

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Before the Incarnation, the Holy Trinity was:
God the Father, God the Word, God the Holy Spirit.

# - God the Holy Spirit formed Jesus’ fetus in Mary’s womb.

Jesus was called “the Son of God” because the Holy Spirit was Jesus’ “father”
(“He played the role of” Jesus’ father).

# - God the Word became flesh (Jesus).

So, can we say the Word was Jesus, and Jesus was the Word?

Jesus Christ was “fully man” via God the Holy Spirit.
Jesus Christ was “fully God” via God the Word.

Several NT verses say Jesus Christ came down from heaven.
On the surface, this sounds ridiculous,
but it is referring to the God part of Jesus (God the Word).
 
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Ps82

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ZacharyB said:
Before the Incarnation, the Holy Trinity was:
God the Father, God the Word, God the Holy Spirit.
Click to expand...
I'd express things this way:
1.) God/Elohim was - God The Spirit.

2.) God/Elohim the Spirit created an image for his personal use and appeared with IT within creation in the Garden and was called The LORD God. He also became known as The Father LORD God.

3.) According to Isaiah 43:11 The ONE God and Father LORD was to come appearing in flesh as Emmanuel (God among men as the Savior.)
I (being God The invisible Spirit who spoke new things into existence), even I, am The LORD (God as the visible Emmanuel who manifested created things into the realm of visibility); beside ME (coming as the invisible Spirit and the visible LORD) there is no Savior.

IOW: Our savior came as God the Spirit and as the presence of The LORD ... appearing as The promised Son of God who would be a son of man in flesh.

Yes, The WORD was God and was with God when God was Spirit of Gen. 1 and was the Father LORD of Gen. 2.

Yes, The WORD was also with Jesus who was also God, when he came as our Savior.
 
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Ps82

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ZacharyB said:
... # - God the Holy Spirit formed Jesus’ fetus in Mary’s womb.
Click to expand...
Yes
ZacharyB said:
Jesus was called “the Son of God” because the Holy Spirit was Jesus’ “father”
Click to expand...
Yes, He represented the role of Jesus's father due to the fact that the Father God appeared among men before the Son appeared among men. They both were God working:
KJV John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father worketh hitherto, and (now) I work."
KJV John 1:18 No man hath seen God, at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he (John the Baptist) hath declared him (who was God and LORD among men in flesh as the Savior). Isaiah 43:11


ZacharyB said:
(“He played the role of” Jesus’ father).

# - God the Word became flesh (Jesus).

So, can we say the Word was Jesus, and Jesus was the Word?
Click to expand...
I see it that way. The living WORD who was with the living God and was the living God. Who was God? The living creator who was LIFE itself and the giver of LIFE.

ZacharyB said:
Jesus Christ was “fully man” via God the Holy Spirit.
Jesus Christ was “fully God” via God the Word.
Click to expand...
Yes

ZacharyB said:
Several NT verses say Jesus Christ came down from heaven.
On the surface, this sounds ridiculous,
but it is referring to the God part of Jesus (God the Word).
Click to expand...
Yes

Another example of this sort of manifestation of the unseen into the visible realm is this: Genesis 1 most things were created invisibly within the Spirit of God. Male and female were fist created in this state. A few things seem to have begun to be manifested visually... Sun moon and stars and our planet. but most were not manifested until Gen. 2. The Father LORD God brought forth male and female as visible mankind in Gen. 2. The LORD brought forth plants and animals and presented them to Adam to name ... and so forth. Adam and Woman saw the presence of God named LORD and talked with Him.
 
Clete

Clete

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ZacharyB said:
Before the Incarnation, the Holy Trinity was:
God the Father, God the Word, God the Holy Spirit.

# - God the Holy Spirit formed Jesus’ fetus in Mary’s womb.

Jesus was called “the Son of God” because the Holy Spirit was Jesus’ “father”
(“He played the role of” Jesus’ father).

# - God the Word became flesh (Jesus).

So, can we say the Word was Jesus, and Jesus was the Word?

Jesus Christ was “fully man” via God the Holy Spirit.
Jesus Christ was “fully God” via God the Word.

Several NT verses say Jesus Christ came down from heaven.
On the surface, this sounds ridiculous,
but it is referring to the God part of Jesus (God the Word).
Click to expand...
So, I'd say there are a few issues with what you've said here. Some of this may have to do with semantics. Meaning that your intent may have been somewhat different than what the words you used managed to communicate. With that in mind...


First, the Spirit did not act as “Jesus’ father.” Scripture never attributes paternity for the Incarnation to the Holy Spirit as a distinct personal father. The Spirit’s role was instrumental, not paternal: He “overshadowed” Mary (Luke 1:35). The conception was by divine power, but Jesus is called Son of God because the eternal Word Himself took on flesh, not because the Spirit became His father. The Father remained the Father.

Secondly, the statement, “Jesus was fully man via the Holy Spirit, fully God via the Word,” divides the natures according to agents, as if each Person contributed a separate ingredient. That’s not biblical nor even orthodox Christianity. The Word (the second Person) became flesh; His human nature came through Mary, not “via the Spirit.” The Spirit caused conception, yet the humanity derived from Mary. To assign Jesus’ humanity to the Spirit is to confuse agency with source.

Next, if the Spirit were Jesus’ father, then the Father is displaced or duplicated. The Trinitarian relations are eternal: Father, Son, and Spirit. They are not roles that shift during the Incarnation. The Son did not come into being because the Spirit fathered Him; He eternally existed and entered the world by taking human nature.

Yes, the Word was Jesus and Jesus was (is) the Word, but only after the Incarnation. The Person of the Word took on human nature; the humanity did not pre-exist as “Jesus.” To speak as though “Jesus” existed in heaven before being conceived collapses the distinction between the pre-incarnate Word and the incarnate God-man. Scripture says the Word came down from heaven, not the human body.

You interpret “came down” as “the God part of Jesus,” as though Jesus were two persons glued together, one human and one divine. That is a form of Nestorian dualism. The correct understanding is that the one Person, the eternal Son, came from heaven and assumed human nature. The descent refers to His divine origin, not to a detachable “God part.”

In short, your post confuses the roles within the Trinity, treats the Spirit as Jesus’ father, divides Christ’s natures by Person, and implies two fathers and two persons in Christ. The biblical and coherent formulation is simple...
  • The Father sent the Son (the eternal Word).
  • The Holy Spirit caused the conception in Mary.
  • The Word Himself became flesh, truly God and truly man, one Person forever.
  • In some very important, but not well understood sense, to discuss Father, Son and Spirit is to speak of the same singular God and, as such, it was THE God Himself who became a man and died for our sin and rose from the dead three days later.
 
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Ps82

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ZacharyB said:
Ps82, many thanks for your comments!
Click to expand...
I left out an important point ... The Holy Spirit in us is still God the Spirit ... but we do not have all of God associated with us as did our Lord Jesus, yet we do have an additional measure of life, power and enlightenment in us from God the Spirit. HIS power holds us unto the completion of the salvation process is completed. He teaches us and brings peace and help in times of need on earth until we believers are in his kingdom forever.

I learned that God can allocate measures of life and power and wisdom unto us when we make him Lord of our lives and receive our salvation. Where did I learn this?
ANSWER:
I learned it from John 3:34-35 It seems God gave ALL THINGS of himself without measure unto Jesus. This truth told me that God could measure out things of his spiritual essence unto created things. God's invisible spiritual essence given in measure means no created being is ever equal to God... except The Son of God. He had all access.

Part of God's nature is that HE is LIFE; so humanity has a measure of life from God at this time ... but he Holy Spirit in us gives us an extra measure of life to hold us until we are complete IN HIM/IN GOD.

John 3:
34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God (The Spirit with the addition of a visible presence as LORD = The Father)) giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given ALL THINGS into his hand.

These are two packed verses. Jesus was not like a box of God. No limited body could contain all of God, but Jesus certainly was allowed to have access to ALL THINGS pertaining to God when instantly needed.

I don't think we humans have or ever will have that sort of beck and call access and will never be equal to God. Yet, I suggest believers have extra measures from God which change us. I see the Holy Spirit in us as a unique personage of the God Head. Even if Jesus gave us this gift of God in us ... and sometimes we hear it said, "Christ in us," the Holy spirit in us operates differently as a unique personage of the God Head. You might say I can accept more than three while knowing ALL THREE are the ONE God.

The ONE God is them...
HE is They and THEY are HE.
(Lots of people don't like it when I write truth like this but we have a linking verb, truth, two subject nominative cases and truth with which to deal.)
 
Clete

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Ps82 said:
I left out an important point ... The Holy Spirit in us is still God the Spirit ... but we do not have all of God associated with us as did our Lord Jesus, yet we do have an additional measure of life, power and enlightenment in us from God the Spirit. HIS power holds us unto the completion of the salvation process is completed. He teaches us and brings peace and help in times of need on earth until we believers are in his kingdom forever.

I learned that God can allocate measures of life and power and wisdom unto us when we make him Lord of our lives and receive our salvation. Where did I learn this?
ANSWER:
I learned it from John 3:34-35 It seems God gave ALL THINGS of himself without measure unto Jesus. This truth told me that God could measure out things of his spiritual essence unto created things. God's invisible spiritual essence given in measure means no created being is ever equal to God... except The Son of God. He had all access.

Part of God's nature is that HE is LIFE; so humanity has a measure of life from God at this time ... but he Holy Spirit in us gives us an extra measure of life to hold us until we are complete IN HIM/IN GOD.

John 3:
34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God (The Spirit with the addition of a visible presence as LORD = The Father)) giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given ALL THINGS into his hand.

These are two packed verses. Jesus was not like a box of God. No limited body could contain all of God, but Jesus certainly was allowed to have access to ALL THINGS pertaining to God when instantly needed.

I don't think we humans have or ever will have that sort of beck and call access and will never be equal to God. Yet, I suggest believers have extra measures from God which change us. I see the Holy Spirit in us as a unique personage of the God Head. Even if Jesus gave us this gift of God in us ... and sometimes we hear it said, "Christ in us," the Holy spirit in us operates differently as a unique personage of the God Head. You might say I can accept more than three while knowing ALL THREE are the ONE God.

The ONE God is them...
HE is They and THEY are HE.
(Lots of people don't like it when I write truth like this but we have a linking verb, truth, two subject nominative cases and truth with which to deal.)
Click to expand...
The problem here is not just one of language but of theology. The post above tries to sound deep, but it lacks clarity, coherence, and biblical grounding. It reads like someone trying to piece together doctrinal truths from poetic impressions rather than from sound reasoning and Scripture.

John 3:34 does not teach that God measures out portions of His "essence" to creatures. It says that God did not give the Spirit by measure to Jesus. The point is not about how much of God's "stuff" someone can hold. The point is that Jesus, being sent by God, speaks the words of God because He has the full operation of the Spirit. That is not about quantifying divinity but about confirming that Christ is the perfect and full revelation of God. He is not just a man who had access to divine power. He is God in the flesh. The Son does not borrow the divine, He possesses it by nature.

Saying that God “measures out” life, power, and wisdom like cups of water to be poured is a category mistake. God gives gifts. He does not give fragments of Himself. The Spirit does not exist in quantifiable parts. He is a Person. He indwells believers fully as He wills. This is not a matter of measurable essence, it's a matter of relationship and function within the Godhead and the believer's position in Christ.

Then we are told that “HE is They and THEY are HE” as if this is profound. It is not. It is confused. The doctrine of the Trinity does not say that God is They in some vague grammatical way. It says God is one Being in three Persons. That is precise. It does not mean God becomes three or that three become one in some loose grammatical arrangement. It means that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Spirit is God, and yet there is only one God. The persons are not modes. They are not expressions. They are not parts. They are coequal and coeternal persons who are one in essence.

Finally, the distinction between “Christ in us” and “the Holy Spirit in us” is a false one. Romans 8:9 makes it clear that the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God are one and the same in the sense of indwelling. The Spirit is the agent of Christ's presence in us. The New Testament writers are not being sloppy when they switch between those terms. They are affirming the unity of the Godhead. It is not helpful to separate the indwelling work of the Spirit from the presence of Christ in us as though they are two unrelated phenomena. It is one work of one God.

Theology should not be built on impressionistic language or poetic fragments. It should be grounded in the clear teaching of Scripture and the disciplined use of reason. Anything less leads to confusion that may sound spiritual but has no anchored to anything true. Doctrine formed in the manner exemplified in Ps82's post can lead to ANY theological conclusion one desires. It is how cultists do doctrine and it should have no place in Christianity.
 
JudgeRightly

JudgeRightly

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Ps82 said:
we do not have all of God associated with us
Click to expand...

Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.
www.biblegateway.com

Bible Gateway passage: Colossians 2:8-10 - New King James Version

Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all...
www.biblegateway.com www.biblegateway.com

If "all the fullness of the Godhead" dwells in Christ, then so too with the Holy Spirit.
 
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Ps82

Well-known member
JudgeRightly said:
Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.
www.biblegateway.com

Bible Gateway passage: Colossians 2:8-10 - New King James Version

Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all...
www.biblegateway.com www.biblegateway.com

If "all the fullness of the Godhead" dwells in Christ, then so too with the Holy Spirit.
Click to expand...
Are you suggesting we believers, who are filled with the gift of the Holy Ghost/Spirit, are equal with God here and now and will remain equal in eternity? Curious. I'd like to ponder what it means to be complete in Christ. Just because we are said to be complete through the works of Christ, does that have the same meaning as we are equal to Him and therefore God?

My thoughts: He, Jesus, who thought it not robbery to be equal with even why appearing in flesh, was equal in Spirit... and in the image belonging to God ... but that equality doesn't necessarily apply to the Saints.

Here are a couple of opinions/conclusions of mine:
a.) The body of the Father, which was a visible super-natural angelic bodily form, which could dwell within unapproachable light, was not God. God is an invisible Spirit. The image/presence of God was created.

b.) The mortal visible body of flesh, which allowed us to see the presence of the Messiah, was not God for the ONE God is Spirit. Jesus, being spiritually God, who was seen, had access to the Spirit without measure. Jesus was equal with God in two ways while on earth. Spiritually and visually. Jesus took on sin (when in came appearing with cursed mortal flesh) and was tempted in all ways as a man but as God sinned not.

I like the way Colossians 1:15 speaks of the image of God.

1:15 (Jesus) Who is the image of (the image belonging to) the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.

The appositive for the noun image is - the firstborn of every creature. An appositive renamed a noun as in -
My mother, Martha, made a pie.
The image, the first born, of all creatures.

IOW: The phrase (of creatures) means it was a created thing. IT, the body, was created first of all. Certainly before The LORD formed mankind a body after its likeness.

Jesus, was equal with the Spirit of God, but also bore the same chosen created physical form as had the Father. The image is not God ... but was created for God's personal use and he used it.

This is why God said what was written in Genesis 2: "Let us make man after our image and likeness." These plural pronouns insinuated from the start that God planned to use IT multiple times to manifest himself as more than one personage of the God Head. Certainly as the Father and the Son of flesh ... and I will predict as our Risen glorified Lord in his kingdom.

Regarding the Holy Spirit/ghost in us: I believe saints have access to the Spirit of God ... but not without measure. A limited spiritual essence needed to accomplish God's work in us.

After all, Satan was condemned for his original sin, which seems to have been some sort of attempt to become God through a rebellion.
I don't know why he ever thought he could accomplish that. And I don't know why God would then allow us saints to become equal to him...
 
JudgeRightly

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Ps82 said:
Are you suggesting we believers, who are filled with the gift of the Holy Ghost/Spirit, are equal with God here and now and will remain equal in eternity?
Click to expand...

I said nothing about believers.
 
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Ps82

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Sorry, Judge Rightly, yes you did mention believers. Quote: " For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power."

The antecedent of the pronoun "you" is understood to be those having been given the Spirit of God in us. Now, Jesus had or was associated with the Spirit of God in him without measure. @ KJV John 3:34-35 let me know that God could give of His Spirit in measures. Just because Jesus had the Spirit without it being measured unto him does not mean that believers had the same amount given to them to establish immortality.

If someone concludes believers have the same spiritual measure of God in us as did Jesus, then that person is saying that all believers will one day be equal with Jesus who was equal with God. This was told of Jesus: Phil 2:6 (Lord Jesus) Who, (also) being in the (bodily) form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God ...

Regarding our ONE Spiritual God and how He was able to manifest himself as three personages at work for the sake of mankind.
The Father and the Son were God manifested concretely and visually unto men within our world.
The Holy Spirit in us is manifested invisibly within believer having the ability to communicate as the WORD of God as mentioned in
Colossians 3:16.
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, (while you are) teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God.
John 15:7 If ye (believers) abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
 
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Ps82

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The GLORY of God. What is the GLORY of God?
If God is an invisible Spirit, what about him would be glorious?

Webster's New World Dictionary: selected definitions with a bit selective
Glorious when used as an adjective - illustrious, splendid, magnificent, very delightful.
To me these definitions suggest something that can be seen and how wonderful it is to behold it.
Glory as a noun - the splendor, magnificence, radiance, as it is with the glory of the Rocky Mountains as you behold them.

IOW - glory and glorious point to something which is seen and is proclaimed a thing splendid to see.

Question: What would it be about an invisible Spiritual God that would look splendid?
My answer: Unless the invisible God created an IMAGE people could see.

Genesis 1:26-27 informs us that God did have just such a visible IMAGE. God planned to give a likeness of his IMAGE to Adam. Since we know Adam first only looked like a man/a male, we know that God's IMAGE was a male form. God had this image in mind for himself and for humanity before the world was.

In fact Gen. 1:1-2 tell us that the world was without form and void; yet, He mentioned his image already being manifested. I think that may have happened when He said, "Let there be LIGHT."

Colossians 1 also tells us how God's image was created first - before other creatures.
Verse 15 - (Jesus) who is the IMAGE of the invisible God, the first born of every creature. (the image having been created first)

See the truth? the IMAGE came before the earth was ... before the Seventh Day ... before Adam was ... before plants and animals were.

Now, I know ... I know the other information in Colossians before this statement and afterwards is talking about Jesus, but that does not undo the point that the IMAGE was the first born of all creatures.

I suggest the ONE invisible God used that visible image/male presence more than once to represent himself before men.

Makes sense: One image to represent ONE God ... and yet used more than once to manifest his presence as the Father and later the Son.

Question: What was that original image like?
My answer: Scripture tells us: I Timothy 1 and 6 Here you find where our Risen Lord Jesus introduces the saints to the Father God as seen in all His visible glory.

I Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
I Timothy 6:14-16 That thou (followers of Christ) keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in his times (as the Risen Lord) he (Jesus) shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; who only hath immortality, (the ONE God the Father), dwelling in the LIGHT which no man can approach unto;(Do you remember how Moses had to be shielded from seeing the GLORY of the LORD as he approached him? It was too dangerous to look right at Him.) (The Potentate) whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen.

The GLORY of the LORD is God's IMAGE when he uses it to appear. It dwells in unapproachable LIGHT ... so powerful it could have harmed Moses as the Father LORD approached in all its glory. And Moses asked to see his glory ... and God said okay. It was this splendid presence which represented the Spiritual God no one could see.

It will be our Risen Lord Jesus who introduces us to the Father Lord God. We saints will be able to see God's glorious presence in its full glory because we will be immortal and can't be harmed by its brightness. We will be able to see the presence of the Father who is ... the King of kings ... Lord of lords etc.

When ever you read about the GLORY of the LORD just realize that most of the time it is referencing the splendid appearance of God's created presence.

Have you ever wondered why God wanted no man to every make an idol after the likeness of anything in heaven or on earth?
Consider this: Men could only do this out of wood, stone, or metal... those idols would be lifeless where God's image was alive walking and talking in a relationship. Enemies of God could also deface those objects which would disgrace our Lord. The presence of our LORD lives within unapproachable LIGHT.
 
Clete

Clete

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Ps82 said:
The GLORY of God. What is the GLORY of God?
If God is an invisible Spirit, what about him would be glorious?

Webster's New World Dictionary: selected definitions with a bit selective
Glorious when used as an adjective - illustrious, splendid, magnificent, very delightful.
To me these definitions suggest something that can be seen and how wonderful it is to behold it.
Glory as a noun - the splendor, magnificence, radiance, as it is with the glory of the Rocky Mountains as you behold them.

IOW - glory and glorious point to something which is seen and is proclaimed a thing splendid to see.

Question: What would it be about an invisible Spiritual God that would look splendid?
My answer: Unless the invisible God created an IMAGE people could see.

Genesis 1:26-27 informs us that God did have just such a visible IMAGE. God planned to give a likeness of his IMAGE to Adam. Since we know Adam first only looked like a man/a male, we know that God's IMAGE was a male form. God had this image in mind for himself and for humanity before the world was.

In fact Gen. 1:1-2 tell us that the world was without form and void; yet, He mentioned his image already being manifested. I think that may have happened when He said, "Let there be LIGHT."

Colossians 1 also tells us how God's image was created first - before other creatures.
Verse 15 - (Jesus) who is the IMAGE of the invisible God, the first born of every creature. (the image having been created first)

See the truth? the IMAGE came before the earth was ... before the Seventh Day ... before Adam was ... before plants and animals were.

Now, I know ... I know the other information in Colossians before this statement and afterwards is talking about Jesus, but that does not undo the point that the IMAGE was the first born of all creatures.

I suggest the ONE invisible God used that visible image/male presence more than once to represent himself before men.

Makes sense: One image to represent ONE God ... and yet used more than once to manifest his presence as the Father and later the Son.

Question: What was that original image like?
My answer: Scripture tells us: I Timothy 1 and 6 Here you find where our Risen Lord Jesus introduces the saints to the Father God as seen in all His visible glory.

I Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
I Timothy 6:14-16 That thou (followers of Christ) keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in his times (as the Risen Lord) he (Jesus) shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; who only hath immortality, (the ONE God the Father), dwelling in the LIGHT which no man can approach unto;(Do you remember how Moses had to be shielded from seeing the GLORY of the LORD as he approached him? It was too dangerous to look right at Him.) (The Potentate) whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen.

The GLORY of the LORD is God's IMAGE when he uses it to appear. It dwells in unapproachable LIGHT ... so powerful it could have harmed Moses as the Father LORD approached in all its glory. And Moses asked to see his glory ... and God said okay. It was this splendid presence which represented the Spiritual God no one could see.

It will be our Risen Lord Jesus who introduces us to the Father Lord God. We saints will be able to see God's glorious presence in its full glory because we will be immortal and can't be harmed by its brightness. We will be able to see the presence of the Father who is ... the King of kings ... Lord of lords etc.

When ever you read about the GLORY of the LORD just realize that most of the time it is referencing the splendid appearance of God's created presence.

Have you ever wondered why God wanted no man to every make an idol after the likeness of anything in heaven or on earth?
Consider this: Men could only do this out of wood, stone, or metal... those idols would be lifeless where God's image was alive walking and talking in a relationship. Enemies of God could also deface those objects which would disgrace our Lord. The presence of our LORD lives within unapproachable LIGHT.
Click to expand...
This line of thinking sounds like Oneness Pentecostalism or even Arianism. It certainly is not sound theology. Christ is treated like a created visible form that God puts on like a suit, which collapses the Trinity where “God,” “Father,” “Jesus,” and “the Image” are used interchangeably, as if they are not distinct Persons but manifestations of a single Person using a visible form multiple times. This is the heresy known as "Modalism" that says God is one Person who merely appears in different modes (sometimes Father, sometimes Son, etc.)).

When pressed, Ps82 will...
Allow me to interrupt myself for a moment....



It really should be against the rules to have a scripture reference as user name. It seems like the only ones that do it are heretics. It demeans God's word to have to even think about the bible to refer to these fools.
Continuing....



When pressed (indeed, perhaps even without being pressed), Ps82 will deny the distinct persons of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. More specifically, she'll deny...
  • The eternal coexistence of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
  • The uncreated nature of the Son
  • The full personal reality of the Holy Spirit

Ps82 pretends to be a layman who just enjoys figuring biblical things out. The truth is more likely that she's a paid professional at a Oneness Pentecostal church. She's too informal to be a professor at one of their seminaries so I'm thinking probably a pastor and if not that, certainly a prominently placed, likely paid, teacher. (i.e. Some Oneness Pentecostal churches allow women pastors and others don't do so "officially" but let them function as such without the title.)


This is the second Oneness Pentecostal that's shown up here in recent months (Servant1 was the other). Just coincidence or is it perhaps two buddies from the same church - husband and wife maybe? 👬
 
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Ps82

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The point has been made that I write too many words and although I enjoy writing them ... not so many others take the time to read them; so, following that wise comment I will keep things short about the trinity.

I hope my fellow believers believe there is ONE God. I say he is an invisible Spirit, which no man has ever seen. But as the Creator of things in the invisible realms and the visible realms he is able to accomplish things that humans cannot fathom. Things that humans cannot accomplish due to our being created with limitations.

An example of what our ONE Spiritual Creator is able to do which we can't, which helped me understand the Trinity concept, is this: He created one spiritual entity called male/female and ultimately this essence was given the name Adam/humanity and manifested and associated with a visible form/an image/a body. They were ONE spirit until female was manifested separately.

Well, if our ONE God could manage the manifestation of Adam's spirit with a visible form then why could he do the same for himself? I believe he did. He created an image/a visible form/a body for his personal use ... and he used it. For us God gave a limited body which now dies so we can get a second ... but NOT THE CASE with God's visible created image/presence. It is immortal and the only image God ever plans to use to represent him as the ONE God. God is NOT A TRINITY..... BUT humanity recognizes Him as three because of the ways we have learned to individually know him. He is a TRINITY of real personages TO US. Yet, in reality God is so much more than a Trinity concept. He is life and is God the Spirit, God as the WORD, God the Creator, God the Father, God the Son, God the Risen Savior, God the Spirit in us, God of Power, God of all things created the invisible and visible, God of love, God of mercy, God of wisdom, ... etc.

I also believe that even now in heavenly places, especially within the Kingdom of our Lord Jesus, God presents himself as at least two visible individuals because that was part of God's promise to HIMSELF, to his WORD, and to his SON. Our part is to acknowledge that God's Son is the one to whom we owe all honor and are to glorify as our Lord and hero. We must have faith that God fulfilled his promise to his Son and for us. Amen.

Shoot, I used too many words after all.
 
Clete

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Ps82 said:
The point has been made that I write too many words and although I enjoy writing them ... not so many others take the time to read them; so, following that wise comment I will keep things short about the trinity.

I hope my fellow believers believe there is ONE God. I say he is an invisible Spirit, which no man has ever seen. But as the Creator of things in the invisible realms and the visible realms he is able to accomplish things that humans cannot fathom. Things that humans cannot accomplish due to our being created with limitations.

An example of what our ONE Spiritual Creator is able to do which we can't, which helped me understand the Trinity concept, is this: He created one spiritual entity called male/female and ultimately this essence was given the name Adam/humanity and manifested and associated with a visible form/an image/a body. They were ONE spirit until female was manifested separately.

Well, if our ONE God could manage the manifestation of Adam's spirit with a visible form then why could he do the same for himself? I believe he did. He created an image/a visible form/a body for his personal use ... and he used it. For us God gave a limited body which now dies so we can get a second ... but NOT THE CASE with God's visible created image/presence. It is immortal and the only image God ever plans to use to represent him as the ONE God. God is NOT A TRINITY..... BUT humanity recognizes Him as three because of the ways we have learned to individually know him. He is a TRINITY of real personages TO US. Yet, in reality God is so much more than a Trinity concept. He is life and is God the Spirit, God as the WORD, God the Creator, God the Father, God the Son, God the Risen Savior, God the Spirit in us, God of Power, God of all things created the invisible and visible, God of love, God of mercy, God of wisdom, ... etc.

I also believe that even now in heavenly places, especially within the Kingdom of our Lord Jesus, God presents himself as at least two visible individuals because that was part of God's promise to HIMSELF, to his WORD, and to his SON. Our part is to acknowledge that God's Son is the one to whom we owe all honor and are to glorify as our Lord and hero. We must have faith that God fulfilled his promise to his Son and for us. Amen.

Shoot, I used too many words after all.
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This is just a modified version of Oneness Pentecostalism.

It's wrong for the same reasons except that it's more dishonest. It's really just an attempt to eat one's cake and have it to (i.e. trying to ride the fence between saying you believe in the Trinity while denying all the most important aspects of the doctrine.)

In short, it's heresy that has no basis at all in Scripture nor sound reason. There is literally not one single good reason to accept it as true. It amounts to you believing whatever pops into your head to believe. You might as well move to Mexico and wait to be taken up by the aliens. It would have about the same amount of substance.
 
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P

Ps82

Well-known member
Clete said:
@Ps82,

Did God die for your sin?
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I happen to believe there is ONE invisible spiritual God. I happen to believe HE created a visible image for himself for his purposes and GE used it. I believe this statement in Ps 82: Arise, O God, judge the Earth: for you shalt inherit all nations.

I see that verse like this:
Arise (from the dead) O God. Judge (all) the Earth (as to whether they be worthy or unworthy to be part of your kingdom): for you will inherit all nations.

Yes, I believe God experienced a human death and arose from the dead to provide the WAY and the LIFE for me to follow him into his kingdom. Jesus Christ died for me ... God tasted death, by saying that I mean HE died a mortal death, but being God HE did arise from the dead and conquered sin and death for me.

Mortal death is just the first death for human beings. My Lord Jesus did die that first physical human death and did it for me, but as God HE died and now spiritually lives so I will not have to experience the Second Death. And that's the truth.

Praise my God who create me/humanity with a miracle plan in mind from the beginning.
 
Clete

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Ps82 said:
I happen to believe there is ONE invisible spiritual God. I happen to believe HE created a visible image for himself for his purposes and GE used it. I believe this statement in Ps 82: Arise, O God, judge the Earth: for you shalt inherit all nations.

I see that verse like this:
Arise (from the dead) O God. Judge (all) the Earth (as to whether they be worthy or unworthy to be part of your kingdom): for you will inherit all nations.

Yes, I believe God experienced a human death and arose from the dead to provide the WAY and the LIFE for me to follow him into his kingdom. Jesus Christ died for me ... God tasted death, by saying that I mean HE died a mortal death, but being God HE did arise from the dead and conquered sin and death for me.

Mortal death is just the first death for human beings. My Lord Jesus did die that first physical human death and did it for me, but as God HE died and now spiritually lives so I will not have to experience the Second Death. And that's the truth.

Praise my God who create me/humanity with a miracle plan in mind from the beginning.
Click to expand...
This is definitely Oneness Pentecostalism.

Ps82. You are NOT a Christian in the biblical sense of the word. You use the bible. You quote from the bible. You use Christian sounding words and say Christian sounding things but so did David Koresh.

God did not simply die a human death. He died - period.

Physical death is just a symptom! Our real problem as human beings is spiritual death. Sin has separated us from He who is Life itself. This is the death Adam suffered the day he rebelled and this is the death Christ suffered for us so that we might be reconciled to God. If all Jesus suffered was physical death, then He dealt with much less than half of the problem.

Jesus, the second person of the Trinity, the Creator of every created thing, experience physical death when His Spirit separated from His physical body but, before that, He experience spiritual death when God the Father separated Himself from the Son while He was hanging on that cross. (Matthew 27:46)

Believe it or pay your own sin debt.
 
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