Bladerunner
Active member
and all the people of the OT had to follow the Laws of Moses as best they could. Yet believing in those laws made them eligible for justification..
Water baptism is not for the body of Christ
- Thread starter Right Divider
- Start date
That's not how this works.
Israel is a nation. Made up of individuals, yes, but that's not how eastern thought works, which is instead in terms of groups, rather than individuals, and which is how much of the Bible was written.
People in the "west" (think: Europe, America, etc) tend to think in terms of individuals, rather than groups.
But the Bible talks about Israel as a singular entity, made up of twelve tribes.
The Body of Christ is another entity, but made up of many members. It's not a monolithic group (and thus cannot be Israel).
Again, not how this works, nor is it what the Bible describes.
Believers under the New Covenant were part of Israel (Jews), a singular entity.
Believers under God's covenant of grace are individual members. There's a 1 God to 1 believer relationship between the believer and God, as opposed to 1 God to 1 nation relationship between God and Israel.
"Saved" does not apply to Israel
Salvation is of the Jews.
Salvation for the Jews means the returning of her King and the establisment of His EARTHLY Kingdom.
That's not what we in the Body of Christ are guaranteed. We are promised a HEAVENLY residence, with no king over us, a personal relationship with God.
Only within the dispensation of grace given through Paul.
People who believed under the New Covenant did not convert to Paul's gospel, nor the reverse. Those who believed under the New Covenant were Jews (with some Gentiles converting as proselytes). They remained Jews. There was still the distinction between Jew and Gentile under the New Covenant.
There is NEITHER Jew NOR Greek in the Body of Christ.
There IS Jew AND Greek under the New Covenant.
Therefore the two dispensations cannot be the same.
Again, Peter believed under the New Covenant. He was not a member of the Body of Christ.
He did not convert to Paul's gospel, and in fact, Paul said NOT to change dispensations, but rather:
But as God has distributed to each one, as the Lord has called each one, so let him walk. And so I ordain in all the churches. Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters. Let each one remain in the same calling in which he was called. Were you called while a slave? Do not be concerned about it; but if you can be made free, rather use it. For he who is called in the Lord while a slave is the Lord’s freedman. Likewise he who is called while free is Christ’s slave. You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men. Brethren, let each one remain with God in that state in which he was called.
Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 7:17-24 - New King James Version
Live as You Are Called - But as God has distributed to each one, as the Lord has called each one, so let him walk. And so I ordain in all the churches. Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised...
Again, Jews who converted under the New Covenant did not leave the New Covenant.
You're thinking in terms of individuals, rather than in terms of groups.
They were cut off, because of their rebellion against God.
No one here has said they were discarded. God WILL return to working with them again.
No, they're not.
Prophecies concerning Israel are on hold until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in.
As if they have a choice in the matter...
False.
Again, by smashing the two dispensations together, you do damage to the scriptures.
Either Paul is vindicated when He says there is neither Jew nor Greek, and Israel isn't really a nation set apart from the rest of the world, or he is made a liar, because there IS a distinction between Jew and Greek.
The New Covenant, as you have been shown MANY times before, was between God and Israel, the SAME TWO PARTIES that the Old Covenant was made between, and no, Gentiles were not part of that covenant.
No Jews will be saved under the dispensation of grace when Christ returns.
Their "salvation" is THROUGH the tribulation, and the reward is Christ establishing His Kingdom here on earth.
Speak for yourself.
No, the members of the Body of Christ did not enter the New Covenant.
I am neither nor part of one of the parties that God made His New Covenant with.
This isn't a proper sentence.
Why not send one of the other Twelve?
Why send a thirteenth?
Can you provide scripture that supports your claim of "the Jews were meant to lead us to Christ"?
What, specifically, was Paul "straightening out Peter and the other" on?
So why not send them? Why send someone who had never seen Christ in person before?
So what?
That's because most of the epistles (both Pauline and otherwise) were written LONG after the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15, because at that point, Paul had explained his gospel to Peter at least twice, once at the beginning of his ministry, three years after his conversion, and once more fourteen years later, at the Jerusalem council, where he explained in private his gospel to "those who were of reputation."
And it's not like I'm saying that there aren't similarities between the two dispensations!
My point is that just because there are similarities, doesn't mean that they are the same!
Peter says that the things Paul teaches are "hard to understand"!
Why are they hard to understand if he's been teaching them since before Christ's Crucifixion?
An appeal to incredulity is not a valid argument.
Peter was not saved under Paul's dispensation of grace, given to him by Christ.
Peter was a believer under the New Covenant, a Jew.
Yes, you do need your spiritual eyes checked, or at the very least, stop putting on blinders!
Again, you still have not addressed my point.
Under your view, either there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile, and Israel has never had any special status, OR there IS a distinction between Jew and Gentile, and Paul is a liar, and thus not to be trusted!
So which is it, GD? Hmmm?
Is Paul a liar? Or was there no real point to everything that God did to separate Israel from the Gentile nations, because they're not really any different than them?
Choose.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Best they could was not good enough, but Paul puts it best….God winked at those times of ignorance.
Acts 17:29-30
Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
What is weird is people that do read the Bible at least a good amount, and get simple details wrong when they know the answer. They know what Daniel said, and it is like it doesn't count. Or something. He was a prophet, a spokesman for God. And he said Gabriel came in with news. This is for all who haven't read it.
24 “Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy.
25“Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.
After this it says the messiah will be cut off and the anti-Christ will commit abominations in the Temple. But the point remains, to restore Israel. The Apostles all knew. They did not know reconciliation came from the cross. The meaning was still hidden. But they did know Israel is to be restored. They have been preaching the good news of the kingdom.
6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.