You've been addressed on this multiple times already.
Repeating yourself ad nauseum isn't going to further your argument.
Prophecy is not the same thing as exhaustive foreknowledge of every future free choice.
Honest struggles on God’s omniscience.
- Thread starter Skywatch89
- Start date
You've been addressed on this multiple times already.
Repeating yourself ad nauseum isn't going to further your argument.
Prophecy is not the same thing as exhaustive foreknowledge of every future free choice.
Derf
Well-known member
I'll offer you 2 choices of who is making the choice for these men in your theology:
1, God
2. Someone else.
If you choose #1, then you need to explain why the men are culpable for their unrepentance.
If you choose #2, then tell me who it is, if you know, and how do they have such control over men's choices.
In neither case can it be the men who would not repent, because they didn't exist when the prophecies were made, and if the prophecies are 100 percent accurate, their choices were determined for them before they existed. Who determined their choices??
way 2 go
Well-known member
(Revelation of John 4:1) After these things I looked, and behold, a door was opened in Heaven. And the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me, saying, Come up here, and I will show you what must occur after these things
you pretend this is not settled
(Revelation of John 9:20-21) [20] And the rest of the men who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and golden, and silver, and bronze, and stone, and wooden idols (which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk). [21] And they did not repent of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
your reply #67
Open theists do not deny prophecy. We do not deny that God can reveal future events. We do not deny that God can know or declare particular future outcomes.
Revelation says they “did not repent.” It does not say God eternally decreed their non-repentance, rendered it certain before they existed, and then punished them for doing what they could never avoid.
#97
You have shown that Revelation says they did not repent.
No one denies that.
What you have not shown is that Revelation is prewritten history, or that their non-repentance was eternally fixed before they existed.
Revelation says they did not repent. I accept that.
But it does not say they were incapable of repenting. It does not say they had no genuine alternative. It does not say the future was exhaustively settled.
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I never claimed they were incapable of repenting , it says "And they did not repent" God has foreknowledge on what choice they settle on.
Revelation 4 (must occur )and 9 presents it as a certain future outcome, not a mere possibility or a conditional warning ,And they did not repent .
God declares as settled "they did not repent" , how is that open?
I believe their choice is free and they are responsible for their choices
open theism accuses God of being unjust if God has a settled foreknowledge of their free choice "And they did not repent"
why does God's foreknowledge of "they did not repent" make him unjust while people not repenting make them guilty ?
foreknowledge is not a force
Right Divider
Body part
100% exhaustive foreknowledge of ALL future "free" choices is not a thing at all.
It is a myth that you will cling to regardless of the evidence shown that refutes it.
way 2 go
Well-known member
foreknowledge is not a force
#3 the ones committing the acts listed are making the choices ,And they did not repent
(Revelation of John 4:1) After these things I looked, and behold, a door was opened in Heaven. And the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me, saying, Come up here, and I will show you what must occur after these things
you pretend this is not settled
(Revelation of John 9:20-21) [20] And the rest of the men who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and golden, and silver, and bronze, and stone, and wooden idols (which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk). [21] And they did not repent of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
way 2 go
Well-known member
God cannot have exhaustive foreknowledge of future "free" choices. verse that says that ?
Revelation 4 says these events ‘must occur,’ and Revelation 9 states as fact that "they did not repent."
How do you know God cannot know this in advance ?
are you claiming you have exhaustive knowledge of what God can know ?
Derf
Well-known member
No, but if it is infallible, it cannot be changed. If any of your choices were known to God before you existed, then you aren't the one making the choice. Power to decree is a force. And if your choices are known before you existed, someone besides you made those choices. The choices are "determined", so you believe in determinism. Determination is made when the chiice is made, and that is the earliest God can infallibly know what your choices will be. If that happens before you exist, then YOU, not being in existence yet, cannot be the one making the choice.
But you don't have specifics, only generalities. "They" is a generality, because it doesn't say who they are. One way to interpret this passage is to say that "they" only includes those who were already unrepentant, making it specific only to the point previous passages were specific.
Who does "they" include? Names or descriptions of specific people would be helpful. But all you have is that "they" whoever they are, will be unrepentant.
Is this helpful to you, to keep repeating it as if repetition is somehow convincing. Some say it is. But those are the kind of people you should trust with your theology:
If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it, and you will even come to believe it yourself.
Joseph Goebbels
Right Divider
Body part
Your understanding of reason and logic is a complete failure.
I know that you will not understand this, but I'll post it for the benefit of others.
Your little attempts to show SOME future knowledge does NOT support 100% exhaustive knowledge of ALL FUTURE "FREE" CHOICES.
NOW I KNOW has a clear meaning that you refuse to accept. It is YOU that has problems believing the PLAIN READING of SCRIPTURE.
Typo here?
You do not have to use the words “incapable of repenting” for your view to imply it.
If God infallibly foreknew before they existed that they would not repent, then they could not repent without making God’s foreknowledge false.
So the issue is not whether you say they were incapable. The issue is whether your doctrine makes the alternative impossible by necessity.
No one said foreknowledge is a force.
The issue is necessity, not force.
If the future act is infallibly foreknown, then it cannot be otherwise. If it can be otherwise, then it is not infallibly foreknown.
There's no in-between.
Genesis 22:12.
“Now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”
God tested Abraham, Abraham obeyed, and then God said, “Now I know.”
Your view requires “Now I know” to mean “I eternally knew before Abraham existed.”
That is not exegesis. That is replacing the text with your doctrine.
No.
I am saying your proof does not prove your claim.
Revelation proves prophecy. It does not prove exhaustive foreknowledge of every future free choice.
Revelation 9 says they did not repent. Genesis 22 says, “Now I know.” You cannot use the former to erase the latter.