ECT Mary: Mother of God

[Ps82]

Sorry I took so long in the post above. I pray people will read it besides Trump Gurl. It means so much to me as a Woman. Maybe people will see some merit to my thoughts.

BTW Trump Gurl ... I'm one too. He is a sinner and can be saved by grace if not already. He is not worse morally than a lot of people. That's the truth.

 

[Clete]

Scripture says that God has existed eternally. God is the ONE who created female/Woman; so, how could she be God's mother if she has not existed eternally before God??? I mean what? The doesn't even make any sense!

Female didn't exist eternally she was created at a specific time. Adam named her Woman only after she was manifested with a womb and visible in our world. How could Female/Woman have given birth to her eternal Creator? I believe the Bible makes things clear.

Now, if you begin to talk about God as Jesus the Messiah things get a bit more mysterious. One must understand how God works/creates and his purposes. That's a lot.


LOL. That a girl. Strong in faith - right or wrong. I like that.

Now, I will present an argument as to why I believe Mary was not the mother of God. Even Jesus made a statement that would leave most of us wondering: When told, "Behold thy mother and thy brothers stand without, desiring to speak with thee. (Mathew 12:47) He replied: "Who is my mother? and who are my brothers?"

Now, Mary was standing outside want to talk to him. Why didn't he just say clearly, "Bring my mother Mary to me? Instead he proposed a thought provoking question. Hmmm ...

He stretched out his hand toward his disciples, and said, "Behold my mother and brothers! Obviously, he avoided calling Mary his mother. I believe Jesus.

Now why ... for whatever reason on earth would he call believers his mother,brother,family? Could it be the truth?

My thoughts drifted back to the beginning of us ... Genesis 1 and 2.
God already existed and part of God's plan was the Promise he made to Female/Woman. She and male would meet and multiply and produce a family unto God. The Messiah was predestined to come from the first Woman. Her seed plus the Holy Spirit would bring forth the Son of God.

Who was predestined to become God's family? Answer: The genetic codes contained within original mankind/male+female. Male/named Adam and female/named Woman would bring forth God's family.

Then one day I found a scripture in the NT that OPENED MY EYES! Timothy understood things ... I think. Anyway he says he told the truth.
I Timothy 2:7-15 (that's a lot to go over line by line; so, I will just cover verses 13-15
13 For Adam (mankind/male - female) was created first and then Eve (I consider this females third name -female/Woman/Eve).

MY THOUGHTS: You see male female came first. Female/Woman/Eve was separated and became the portal for the entrance of the Messiah. It has taken the birth of millions of Females/Women/Eves to bring the Messiah into the world. It took more than Mary. If at any time the chain was broken then Messiah would not have come. I think time and purity had more of an effect on the choice of Mary and certainly knowing that she would embrace her roll made a difference.

14 And Adam was not deceived, BUT the Woman being deceived was in transgression.

MY THOUGHTS: I theorize that woman deserved judgement. Yet, Timothy explains there was hope for Female/WOMAN/Eve. What was her hope?

15a Not withstanding SHE shall be saved IN CHILDBEARING!

MY THOUGHTS: WOMAN ... women was not lost! She just needed to continue bring forth children and other females until the Messiah arrived. Oh my, I want to weep as I write. Thank You my Lord for saving all women from our transgression in the beginning.

CONCLUSION: All women have been the mother of the Messiah since the beginning... The Messiah who was of her seed and the Holy Spirit. HE brought forth Himself unto Himself through the door he designed ... Woman offered the portal and Mary supplied the necessary sinful flesh of Eve. She did not create/birth/supply the spiritual God - the predestined Messiah.

Jesus made it all fit for my conclusions when he said from the cross: "WOMAN behold YOUR Son." It means so much more than, " Mary behold your son," ... although God's words often have an earthly meaning and a divine spiritual meaning. He spoke to me as a female of the human race.

It took Adam and Eve to bring forth the brothers and sisters of our Messiah until he arrived from God as God. Amen

Alright, so I'd have to say that your posts are a bit all over the place and mostly misses the point that Catholics are making when they refer to Mary as the "Mother of God". In actual fact, it's one of the least offensive doctrines that Catholics hold to. In fact, mostly, objections have to do with the semantics of the title "Mother of God" rather than with what the doctrine actually teaches. When you mix that factor in with the fact that most people don't bother to educate themselves on what the actual doctrine is and what it teaches and why it teaches it, the result is that people are mostly just freaking out over a false perception.

When Catholics call Mary the Mother of God (from the Greek Theotokos, “God-bearer”), they are not making Mary greater than God or claiming she existed before Him. The phrase comes from the early Church’s defense of the truth that Jesus is one Person who is both fully God and fully man from the moment of His conception.

The Council of Ephesus in AD 431 used this title to guard against a teaching called Nestorianism, which wrongly split Jesus into two persons, one divine, one human. Calling Mary the Mother of God was a way of insisting that she gave birth not to “part” of Jesus, but to the one divine Person, God the Son, who had taken on human flesh.

What the title does affirm:

• Jesus is fully God and fully man from conception.
• Mary is the mother of the Person Jesus, not just of His human side.
• The unity of Christ’s divine and human natures is protected.

What the title does not mean:

• That Mary is the source of God’s divine nature.
• That Mary is greater than God or existed before Him.
• That Mary’s motherhood includes the Father or the Spirit.
• That Mary is a goddess.

Personally, I can agree with the doctrinal truth the title was meant to protect, yet still feel uneasy about the phrase “Mother of God” in English. In everyday language it can sound as though Mary somehow originated God Himself, which is not at all what the early Church intended. Some prefer biblical phrasing like “Mother of the Lord” (Luke 1:43) or “Mother of Jesus, who is God” to avoid that confusion while affirming the same truth.

The key point is this: the title Theotokos was never about elevating Mary above God. It was about safeguarding the reality of who Jesus is, God the Son, the eternal Word, made flesh.

 

[Ps82]

Mary did three things. She was willing and favored and fulfilled the portal God created in the beginning to produce the Messiah. That portal was the womb of WOMAN. She did supply the sinful flesh of lost humanity but that flesh was not God. God imparted himself directly (as the Holy Spirit who is God) through that door that was by his design in the beginning ... To be saved from her transgression WOMAN was required to continue to give birth until the Messiah arrived.

Adam who was male/female in the beginning was to reproduce and multiply themselves as children of God ... who would be the Messiah's brothers and sisters. But Woman was given an additional task. WOMAN would provide physical humanity while God supplied himself.

Step one: God the Messiah would arrive in sinful human flesh. Taking on the sin of mankind and being tempted in every way as mankind.
Step two: God came ... through Mary ... straight from HIMSELF. The Messiah was given the Spirit of God Almighty without measure. The Messiah was not spiritually a man, but was physically a man. He was a second Adam ... something new. In fact he was the first of his kind. No man had ever seen God, the promised Son, until Jesus came and John the Baptist identified him. John 1:18.

The mystery between Mary and WOMAN is that God said WOMAN would bear the Messiah ... The Messiah would be the SEED she delivered. It was not just Mary who brought that SEED into the world ... It took the act of WOMAN (and all her daughters) to continue bearing children to lead to the Messiah's arrival. The only one who might be considered to be the Mother of God the Messiah would be the original Female/WOMAN and all her female descendants. Even so ... God existed eternally before HER creation!

Yet, Jesus did give WOMAN CREDIT when he revealed a mystery from the cross: "WOMAN behold YOUR son." not - Mary behold your son.
To me that means the original Female/WOMAN ultimately bore her savior as planned ... by continuing to bear female children. Ultimately each of her daughters must do what is required of all people as well:

"if they (WOMAN AND HER DAUGHTERS) continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."( I Tim. 2:15b) IOW ... honor God and accept their Savior ...

Yet still, scripture says: The Lord Jesus is a priest after the likeness of Melchizedek who had no mother or father.
Yet, he claims saved humanity as his mother and brothers/his siblings. Somehow all that is correct. We are his family it seems.

 

[Clete]

Mary did three things. She was willing and favored and fulfilled the portal God created in the beginning to produce the Messiah. That portal was the womb of WOMAN. She did supply the sinful flesh of lost humanity but that flesh was not God. God imparted himself directly (as the Holy Spirit who is God) through that door that was by his design in the beginning ... To be saved from her transgression WOMAN was required to continue to give birth until the Messiah arrived.

Adam who was male/female in the beginning was to reproduce and multiply themselves as children of God ... who would be the Messiah's brothers and sisters. But Woman was given an additional task. WOMAN would provide physical humanity while God supplied himself.

Step one: God the Messiah would arrive in sinful human flesh. Taking on the sin of mankind and being tempted in every way as mankind.
Step two: God came ... through Mary ... straight from HIMSELF. The Messiah was given the Spirit of God Almighty without measure. The Messiah was not spiritually a man, but was physically a man. He was a second Adam ... something new. In fact he was the first of his kind. No man had ever seen God, the promised Son, until Jesus came and John the Baptist identified him. John 1:18.

The mystery between Mary and WOMAN is that God said WOMAN would bear the Messiah ... it was not just Mary ... It took the act of WOMAN (later called Eve and all her daughters) to continue bearing children to lead to the Messiah's arrival. The only one who might be considered to be the Mother of God the Messiah would be the original Female/WOMAN and all her female descendants. Even so ... God existed before HER!

Yet, Jesus did give WOMAN CREDIT when he revealed a mystery from the cross: "WOMAN behold YOUR son." not - Mary behold your son.
To me that means the original Female/WOMAN ultimately bore her savior ... by continuing to bear female children and ultimately each of her daughters must do this as well: "if they (WOMAN AND HER DAUGHTERS) continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."( I Tim. 2:15b)

Yet still, Lord Jesus is a priest after the likeness of Melchizedek who had no mother or father. Yet, he claims saved humanity as his mother and brothers. Somehow all that is correct. We are his entire family it seems.

Adam was never Male/female. This is known as the “Androgynous Adam” Heresy. Yes, its been around long enough to have its own name! That's how obviously false it is!

The claim that Adam was “male and female at the beginning” is not biblical and is, in fact, a very old heresy. This teaching appears in Gnostic writings, certain Kabbalistic traditions, and other pagan philosophies. It misreads Genesis 1:27 and ignores the clear sequence of Genesis 2, where God created Adam as a man and later formed Eve from him.

The early church rejected this idea because it distorts the creation account, erases the God-given distinction between male and female, and imports foreign philosophy into Scripture. Orthodox Christianity (i.e. non-lunatic weirdo Christianity) has always affirmed that man and woman were created separately, both in the image of God, to reflect His design for humanity.

 

[epalhof]

After reciting the Apostle Creed at Church for a thousand times I finally had to ask myself if I believe in the Virgin Birth. God does not suspend his natural laws that are eternal, absolute and unchanging. After a lot of prayer and research I came to believe It is a mythology that seeped in by the pagan converts and adopted at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD. I then asked God: Is it possible the messiah can be the messiah without being born of a virgin? I got my answer by contacting a Rabbi. Absolutely. So how do we reconcile this theological divide between Judaism and Christianity? The Bible was written by Jews and chosen for a reason. So what happened? It led me to write a book. I found as I was writing, I would ask God to guide me to a logical and theological sound explanation. I tried to strip away the indoctrination of 1700 years and dig deep into what was going on with the people surrounding Jesus. I've come to deeper appreciation for Jesus as the messiah.

 

[Right Divider]

God does not suspend his natural laws that are eternal, absolute and unchanging.

That's utterly and absolutely false!

There are numerous examples in the Bible of God doing exactly that!

 

[epalhof]

You can believe in what you want. I am not forcing my belief on anyone. God spoke to me and led me to an understanding. If he suspended his laws the stars would fall because there would be no gravity to hold it together. Your examples are not convincing. Defend your belief in a sensible and logical way. God is the most sensible as he is creator. The Bible is all about the lineage of the Chosen people. He chooses the lineage but they must be obedient to fulfill his will or it moves to another. King Saul is an example of losing the covenant so it moves to David. The Doctrine of the Virgin Birth is a stretch and I for one am not suspending common sense and biology

 

[Right Divider]

You can believe in what you want.

How nice of you. Your generosity knows no bounds.

I am not forcing my belief on anyone.

Did anyone claim that you were?

God spoke to me and led me to an understanding.

God spoke to me and told me that you're wrong.

If he suspended his laws the stars would fall because there would be no gravity to hold it together.

Nobody is claiming that God has suspended the law of gravity that could cause the stars to fall.
Where do you get this silly notion?

Your examples are not convincing.

First, I didn't even give any examples (though they are there).
Second, I don't care if the examples in the Bible convince you or not. You seem to be some sort of lunatic.

Defend your belief in a sensible and logical way.

I do... I use the plain reading of scripture.

God is the most sensible as he is creator.

Then why don't you believe Him?

The Bible is all about the lineage of the Chosen people.

Among other things.

He chooses the lineage but they must be obedient to fulfill his will or it moves to another.

That is only partially true.

King Saul is an example of losing the covenant so it moves to David.

Israel has always had problems, but will be restored in the end.

The Doctrine of the Virgin Birth is a stretch and I for one am not suspending common sense and biology

Again, you are simply wrong. You seem to worship a false "god" and reject the plain teaching in the Bible. Why are you on a Christian forum at all?

 

[epalhof]

The Doctrine of the Virgin Birth was adopted at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD. Jewish teaching cannot accept such a doctrine as it makes no sense. Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi. He was not a Christian pastor or priest since Christianity came after. God prepared the Chosen people based on the foundation of Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Judah, Moses, David etc.. Christianity defines the messiah differently. It has a completely different interpretation in Judaism. He must come through a lineage they can accept. Since God raised them up, then it makes sense to understand what they were expecting. Christianity has embellished a lot and I know that Judaism can never accept a mythology that makes no sense.

 

[Clete]

After reciting the Apostle Creed at Church for a thousand times

I'd just about bet my house that you've never recited it at all. Not even one single time. You made this up, didn't you? Go ahead admit it. You've never been any sort of Christian at all.

I finally had to ask myself if I believe in the Virgin Birth. God does not suspend his natural laws that are eternal, absolute and unchanging.

The natural laws are neither eternal, absolute nor unchanging. What are you even talking about?

There's this idea in the bible. It's a called "miracles". Maybe you've heard of it.

After a lot of prayer and research I came to believe It is a mythology that seeped in by the pagan converts and adopted at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD.

Let me guess. God told you not to ever post a syllable of evidence of such an accusation, right?!

I then asked God: Is it possible the messiah can be the messiah without being born of a virgin?

Not if you want such a "messiah" to be born without a sin nature, and thereby be qualified to die as a sacrifice for sin, you can't, no!

Then again, by the same form of argument, there's no "need" for the messiah to die at all, right?

I got my answer by contacting a Rabbi.

As I suspected. Not a Christian. You almost certainly never have been.

Absolutely. So how do we reconcile this theological divide between Judaism and Christianity?

You don't. Why bother trying? What motivates such a goal?

If Jesus was not born of a virgin then the New Testament is false and Jesus was a liar with delusions of godhood!

The Bible was written by Jews and chosen for a reason. So what happened? It led me to write a book.

Ah! So now the motive is revealed! You want to sell a book to all us idiot Christians that believe the bible when it states as clear as day that Jesus was born of a virgin.

I found as I was writing, I would ask God to guide me to a logical and theological sound explanation.

An explanation that you will never post a single syllable of on this website.

Go ahead, prove me wrong. I dare you!

I tried to strip away the indoctrination of 1700 years and dig deep into what was going on with the people surrounding Jesus. I've come to deeper appreciation for Jesus as the messiah.

Liar. You aren't a Christian of any flavor!


Matthew, a Holy Spirit indwelled Apostle of our Lord Jesus was inspired by the Holy Spirit to quote the Septuagint's rendering of a passage in Isaiah. It reads as follows...

Matthew 1:22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: 23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”​

The Septuagint is very much older that 1700 years as also are the books of Matthew and Luke which both explicitly teach the virgin birth of Christ and so the idea of a virgin birth DID NOT originate in the 4th century.

Additionally, Jesus Himself quoted the Septuagint on multiple occasions...

• Matthew 15:8–9 → Isaiah 29:13
• Matthew 21:16 → Psalm 8:2
• Matthew 21:42 / Mark 12:10–11 / Luke 20:17 → Psalm 118:22–23
• Matthew 22:32 → Exodus 3:6 (LXX structure reflected)
• Matthew 24:15 → Daniel 9:27 / 11:31 / 12:11 (Septuagint structure for “abomination of desolation”)
• Matthew 27:46 / Mark 15:34 → Psalm 22:1 (LXX phrasing matches more closely)
• Luke 4:18–19 → Isaiah 61:1–2 (Jesus reads from the scroll of Isaiah in the synagogue; LXX includes “recovery of sight to the blind,” not in Hebrew)
• Luke 19:46 / Matthew 21:13 / Mark 11:17 → Isaiah 56:7 and Jeremiah 7:11 (LXX phrasing used)
• John 6:45 → Isaiah 54:13 (closer to LXX wording: “They shall all be taught by God”)
• John 13:18 → Psalm 41:9 (matches LXX more closely)

...demonstrating the accuracy of its translation from the Hebrew.

Then there is Genesis 3:15 - just SLIGHTLY older than 1700 years, which mentions the seed of the woman. The seed of what?

Guess how many other times that the seed of the woman is mentioned. Oh! You thought I meant biblically?! No, no no! I mean anywhere in all of history. In all ancient middle eastern culture and literature, how often is the seed of the woman ever mentioned?

Go ahead, take a wild guess!

The answer is NONE! ZILCH! ZERO! NADA!

It exists here...

Genesis 3:15​

And I will put enmity​

Between you and the woman,​

And between your seed and her Seed;​

He shall bruise your head,​

And you shall bruise His heel.”​

....and NOWHERE else! It is not found in any other religion, myth, cult, or philosophy throughout recorded history.

Probably just a coincidence though!

 

[Right Divider]

The Doctrine of the Virgin Birth was adopted at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD.

The doctrine of the virgin birth was in scripture hundreds of years before that.

Jewish teaching cannot accept such a doctrine as it makes no sense.

Nonsense. Your claim without support is meaningless.

Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi.

Duh.

He was not a Christian pastor or priest since Christianity came after.

So what?

 

[epalhof]

I am not judging anyone here. What is interesting is judging someone's understanding is not anyone's department except for God. Jesus said " Those who have not sinned, cast the first stone." The Jewish Christians did not even consider the Doctrine of the Virgin Birth as legitimate since they maintained their traditions. As the pagans converted, they didn't want to accept the Jewish roots. It is clear when Constantine showed his hatred to the Jews and the Virgin Birth Doctrine severed the Jewish roots that should have been the bedrock of Christianity. He used it as a weapon against them.

 

[Right Divider]

I am not judging anyone here.

Of course you are!

You come to a Christian site and deny basic Christian doctrine!

What is interesting is judging someone's understanding is not anyone's department except for God.

Nonsense. God calls us to judge truth from error. Christian truth; your error.

John 7:24 (AKJV/PCE)​

(7:24) Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.​

Jesus said " Those who have not sinned, cast the first stone."

There was a very specific reason that He did that and it was NOT about general judging of correct doctrine.

The Jewish Christians did not even consider the Doctrine of the Virgin Birth as legitimate since they maintained their traditions.

You are talking about Jews and not Christians.

As the pagans converted, they didn't want to accept the Jewish roots.

Your theory is pure fiction.

It is clear when Constantine showed his hatred to the Jews and the Virgin Birth Doctrine severed the Jewish roots that should have been the bedrock of Christianity. He used it as a weapon against them.

Again, why are you on a Christian forum?

 

[Clete]

I am not judging anyone here. What is interesting is judging someone's understanding is not anyone's department except for God. Jesus said " Those who have not sinned, cast the first stone." The Jewish Christians did not even consider the Doctrine of the Virgin Birth as legitimate since they maintained their traditions. As the pagans converted, they didn't want to accept the Jewish roots. It is clear when Constantine showed his hatred to the Jews and the Virgin Birth Doctrine severed the Jewish roots that should have been the bedrock of Christianity. He used it as a weapon against them.

You are a lying wolf in sheep's clothing!

As if Matthew and Luke weren't Jewish Christians!

 

[Sherman]

TOL is for presenting the Gospel, not feeding its members garbage. Say bye to epalhof..