The only issue I have is that they roll 'infant baptism" into it. Romans 5 is straight forward, the most of the Bible. There is original sin by Adam, and death to all because of it.
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Catholicism vs. Biblical Christianity
- Thread starter Clete
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Derf
Well-known member
Agreed. It's as if the death of Christ only covers Adam's sin, or all past sins of the baby's ancestors, and the baby, as he grows, has to do penance to pay for the rest of his sins.
You highlight the wrong portion of that verse.
Romans 5:18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
The doctrine of Original sin is blasphemy, Nick! God DOES NOT hold a child guilty of his parent's sin.
Ezekiel 18:19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
Whatever consequences of sin were passed from Adam to the rest of his race was dealt with at the cross and God knew in advance that He would be dealing with that aspect of Adam's rebellion in that manner. Otherwise, He would never had permitted Adam and Eve to reproduce at all. He'd have simply ended their lives then and there.
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Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Same. Waiting for something interesting to get discussed. Everything so far has been really boring, starting with the obv illogical thread title, begging the question ofc, that Catholicism ISN'T Biblical Christianity, which is begging the question.
Like there IS NO "vs" lol. Catholicism IS Biblical Christianity.
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The question is are people condemned in the concept of original sin, as they call it. Paul seems to say so.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Of course he also says death entered through Adam and spread to all because all sinned. So it doesn’t really matter, however he says everybody is condemned because of Adam.
Romans chapters 5 and 6 are arguably the most important in the Bible for us today.
I just showed you PROOF otherwise, Nick, including from Paul's own writing.
Look at the passage you yourself just cited. The eight words that immediately precede the verse you quoted....
"sin is not imputed when there is no law. "
God is just. That is all you need know in order to toss "Original Sin" out the window. Just forget it. It's false! Romans 5 teaches the opposite of the doctrine of Original Sin! It's about what God did to undo the problems inherited from Adam. They are universally applied such that no one will ever be punished by God for any sin other than that which they themselves have committed.
That isn't to say there weren't any consequences for Adam's race that came because of his rebellion, which Romans 5 does discuss but none of it has to do with God holding people, especially babies, guilty of sins that they did not commit. That would be a mockery of justice and it would blatantly contradict not just God's word but the actual words that came out of God's own mouth...
Ezekiel 18:19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?
30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”
(I could have quoted the entire chapter. This specific issue is what it talks about from beginning to end.)
The choice you're left with is this....Is the doctrine of "Original Sin", which no one believed at all prior to Augustine, true?
OR
Is the bible's depictions of a just God true.
It's either Augustinian doctrine or Christianity.
The third and only other alternative is that they are both false.
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This idiotic claim is false by Catholicism's OWN standard!
Just one of 551,217 examples....
- Scripture (affirmed by Catholicism as God's Word):
- Catholic Doctrine (Council of Trent, Canon 9):
Derf
Well-known member
It seems there are some "vs". Like:Same. Waiting for something interesting to get discussed. Everything so far has been really boring, starting with the obv illogical thread title, begging the question ofc, that Catholicism ISN'T Biblical Christianity, which is begging the question.
Like there IS NO "vs" lol. Catholicism IS Biblical Christianity.
"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" vs "Mary was sinless from conception".