Does Open Theism make us view eschatology differently?

[Nick M]

Those who are saved by grace alone will not directly experience the end times, we'll be sitting on the so-called sidelines, watching things unfold as they happen, while the Children of Israel goes through her literal trial by fire, to finally make them into a holy and upright nation who honors her God.

We are only just seeing the start with the gospel going to Israel.

 

[Derf]

The "people now to be involved" in the prophetic program has always ever been the Children of Israel. A nation. Not individuals. Those people have existed since Jacob had children, if not since God called Abram out of Canaan, out of the Gentiles.

Paul's dispensation of grace was always a temporary "Plan B" if the Children of Israel didn't go along with God's plan with the Messiah. There is no "apocalypticism," no sense of urgency in this dispensation. Those who are saved by grace alone will not directly experience the end times, we'll be sitting on the so-called sidelines, watching things unfold as they happen, while the Children of Israel goes through her literal trial by fire, to finally make them into a holy and upright nation who honors her God.

That's fine, but can you suggest how the people of Israel, who are the camp of the saints, as you are saying, I think, who have been ruling over the world for a thousand years with Jesus at their head, physically sitting on David's throne, can be so completely isolated from a world that quickly returns to Satan's lead and attacks the saints, with Jesus in their midst?

 

[JudgeRightly]

That's fine, but can you suggest how the people of Israel, who are the camp of the saints, as you are saying, I think,

What do you mean by "camp of the saints"?

who have been ruling over the world for a thousand years with Jesus at their head, physically sitting on David's throne,

They haven't been.

He hasn't been.

can be so completely isolated from a world that quickly returns to Satan's lead and attacks the saints, with Jesus in their midst?

Wait, are you talking about the future?

Did you forget that Jesus will be there, ruling with a rod of iron?

You shall break them with a rod of iron;You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’ ”

Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 2:9 - New King James Version

You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’ ”

www.biblegateway.com

(see also Revelation 2:27)

And that crimes (and possibly sins) will be punished extremely quickly, and harshly. Here's a quick summary by ChatGPT of verses that say this:

"During the Millennial Kingdom, Christ will rule the earth with perfect righteousness and swift justice. Judgment will not rely on human testimony or slow legal processes; instead, Christ, filled with the Spirit of wisdom and knowledge, will judge instantly and perfectly, not by sight or hearing but by divine understanding (Isaiah 11:3-4). Wrongdoing will be punished swiftly, whether through personal judgment (Isaiah 65:20), national consequences like drought and plague (Zechariah 14:16-19), or direct destruction (Psalm 2:9; Revelation 19:15). Christ’s reign will be characterized by omniscient knowledge, immediate enforcement of justice, and a "rod of iron" that breaks rebellion before it can spread, ensuring that righteousness, peace, and true justice dominate the earth."

 

[Derf]

What do you mean by "camp of the saints"?



They haven't been.

He hasn't been.



Wait, are you talking about the future?

Did you forget that Jesus will be there, ruling with a rod of iron?

You shall break them with a rod of iron;You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’ ”

Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 2:9 - New King James Version

You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’ ”

www.biblegateway.com

(see also Revelation 2:27)

And that crimes (and possibly sins) will be punished extremely quickly, and harshly. Here's a quick summary by ChatGPT of verses that say this:

"During the Millennial Kingdom, Christ will rule the earth with perfect righteousness and swift justice. Judgment will not rely on human testimony or slow legal processes; instead, Christ, filled with the Spirit of wisdom and knowledge, will judge instantly and perfectly, not by sight or hearing but by divine understanding (Isaiah 11:3-4). Wrongdoing will be punished swiftly, whether through personal judgment (Isaiah 65:20), national consequences like drought and plague (Zechariah 14:16-19), or direct destruction (Psalm 2:9; Revelation 19:15). Christ’s reign will be characterized by omniscient knowledge, immediate enforcement of justice, and a "rod of iron" that breaks rebellion before it can spread, ensuring that righteousness, peace, and true justice dominate the earth."

Right, that's what I'm talking about.
Then this happens:
Revelation 20:7-9 KJV — And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Right, that's what I'm talking about.
Then this happens:
Revelation 20:7-9 KJV — And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

So what's the problem?

 

[Derf]

So what's the problem?

Why would the camp of the saints be so small compared to the people of the nations that Satan stirs up against them, if Christ, the perfect king, rules with a rod of iron through his people Israel for 1000 years? And during that 1000 years, I would assume (I could be wrong), that the now believing Jews are telling the world about the King and His sacrifice for the wins of the world all that time. Also during that 1000 years, people live long lives, so some (most?) may have even lived all the way through the 1000 years. Are the children born during that time not taught the ways of God or to trust the King? Wouldn't that be a punishable offense for a king who rules with a rod of iron?

(This question would be approximately the same whether the MAD doctrine is true or not.)

 

[JudgeRightly]

Why would the camp of the saints be so small compared to the people of the nations that Satan stirs up against them, if Christ, the perfect king, rules with a rod of iron through his people Israel for 1000 years?

I'm not sure what the size of Israel has to do with this...

And during that 1000 years, I would assume (I could be wrong), that the now believing Jews are telling the world about the King and His sacrifice for the wins of the world all that time. Also during that 1000 years, people live long lives, so some (most?) may have even lived all the way through the 1000 years. Are the children born during that time not taught the ways of God or to trust the King? Wouldn't that be a punishable offense for a king who rules with a rod of iron?

(This question would be approximately the same whether the MAD doctrine is true or not.)

Satan will have been locked away for the entirety of that period.

It means that those who stir up trouble do it solely because they reject God on their own. Satan (or his minions) isn't there to be blamed.

A just and loving king does not punish someone for rejecting his love, but it doesn't mean there aren't any consequences for doing so.

 

[Derf]

I'm not sure what the size of Israel has to do with this...



Satan will have been locked away for the entirety of that period.

It means that those who stir up trouble do it solely because they reject God on their own. Satan (or his minions) isn't there to be blamed.

A just and loving king does not punish someone for rejecting his love, but it doesn't mean there aren't any consequences for doing so.

Do you think murder will be punishable by death penalty?

 

[JudgeRightly]

Do you think murder will be punishable by death penalty?

I don't believe it will be possible.

Consider the lust in one's heart = adultery passage.

 

[Clete]

Yes, I agree. If God is "setting up", that's one particular way He directs the end He's looking for. But when the false prophet and the antichrist are thrown into the lake of fire, it is not because God planned for a particular person to be born that could never repent, right? That's the part of Calvinism we reject, and I think we reject it as much for one or two people as we do for millions.

I stopped focusing on eschatology many years ago so I could be wrong about this but I always had the impression that the antichrist wasn't just an evil guy like Barrack Obama but was someone who was "possessed" by Satan himself. It seems like it would be rather difficult to repent of that but I suppose it isn't impossible.

 

[Derf]

I don't believe it will be possible.

Murder won't be possible?

Consider the lust in one's heart = adultery passage.

Are you saying lust won't be possible?

Just looking for clarification.

Edit to add:
Maybe you're saying that the mere lust or hate that are the beginnings of adultery and murder will be dealt with by the rod of iron?

 

[Nick M]

Wait, are you talking about the future?

Did you forget that Jesus will be there, ruling with a rod of iron?

You shall break them with a rod of iron;You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’ ”

Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 2:9 - New King James Version

You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’ ”

www.biblegateway.com

(see also Revelation 2:27)

Truly. To expound on his point.

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse.

He spoke the universe into existence. And he will exercise judgment in the same way.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Murder won't be possible?

Are you saying lust won't be possible?

Just looking for clarification.

Edit to add:
Maybe you're saying that the mere lust or hate that are the beginnings of adultery and murder will be dealt with by the rod of iron?

I'm saying that murder starts in the heart.

Jesus knows people's hearts.

The rod of iron would be brought down upon those who act out their desire to murder.

Arguably, judgement would be passed after the murderer committed to murdering, but before anyone was actually harmed.