Question About Open Theism

[Nick M]

Why is Classic versus Open theism a heaven or hell matter?

It isn't. Do you mean the false gospel of Calvinism? Classic what?

 

[Clete]

Why is Classic versus Open theism a heaven or hell matter? I really have never participated in debates about these two theologies.

I know of no Open Theist who would ever suggest such a thing. There are plenty of Classical theists who would do so! Calvinists in particular very often believe that the TULIP is the very gospel itself!

Biblically, however, all that is required to be saved is to believe the following things...

• God exists and is the Creator of all things and He is perfect, holy, and just.
• We, having willfully done evil things and rebelled against God, who gave us life, deserve death.
• Because God loves us, He provided for Himself a propitiation (an atoning sacrifice) by becoming a man whom we call Jesus Christ.
• Jesus, being the Creator God Himself and therefore innocent of any sin, willingly bore the sins of the world and died on our behalf.
• Jesus rose from the dead.
• If you confess with you mouth, the Lord Jesus Christ (i.e. openly acknowledge your need of a savior and that He is that Savior) and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED.

Oh well, here are three examples I like to ponder regarding God's will and his knowing how everything ends and man's gift of freewill.

Queen Esther's uncle once posed this question to her [paraphrased]: Perhaps you were meant for a time like this and if you fail to pick up your destiny God will choose someone else. You will suffer while someone else accomplishes God's will and is rewarded.

After God rejected Cain's form of an offering He asked angry Cain this question, "Do you not know IF IF IF you do well you will be accepted?"

Samson was chosen before he was born to accomplish God's will to rid that area of the Promised Land of the Philistines. Along the way Samson did everything against God's will which should have stopped God's plan for him, but God used him anyway at the very end to kill more Philistines than ever before ...

All three of these smack of the co-existence of God's will and man's will.
Just because God knows how everything is going to turn out in the end does not mean an individual has to take the high road. I a person fails at his purpose from God, God will use someone else.

Personal experience for what ever it is worth. I think it sort of relates to this topic about God's will versus the free will behaviors of men. Our having a free will or refusing to listen to God's will is going to change the end God knows is ahead. [???] Still a seeker of how things work.

While driving my car the still small voice of God said: "Wreck."
I did everything I knew to be safe ... even took a longer but safer way home and remembered to use all my driving signals when needed. I got to my street with signals on for turning toward my house and wham!!! A woman on her phone slammed into the back of my car.

I asked God, "I heard your warning and did all I could to trust you. Why was I still in a wreck? He simply said, "You were listening." And I understood he meant she wasn't. This was an example of how she was living out her will not His; so, we were in a wreck.

Yet, God protected me. Car totaled but I was not hurt. A bit of back strain. The man in the car behind her's stayed until the police came and explained everything to the police. God took care of me even though she was not listening. She was speeding, had just passed him in a right turn lane that was running out, and was on her phone. I had my blinker on for my turn.

Okay, it wasn't God's voice. We can know this for a fact because you don't get to have your cake and eat it too.

 

[Ps82]

It isn't. Do you mean the false gospel of Calvinism? Classic what?

I'm not even sure how to ask a question about them. I just study my KJV Bible and do not look into various differentiations of beliefs. I just looked up a quick explanation of Classic and Open theism and was wondering.

 

[Nick M]

I'm not even sure how to ask a question about them. I just study my KJV Bible and do not look into various differentiations of beliefs. I just looked up a quick explanation of Classic and Open theism and was wondering.

Don't be bothered by my often blunt replies. I don't read the KJV much because I don't speak early modern English. I don't see open theism and Calvinism at odds. Because Calvinism is just a false gospel. And open theism is a term someone came up with regarding how God describes himself in the Bible. Open theism (what the Bible says) is contrary to Calvinism fundamentals. But it is 2 different things as far as I am concerned.

 

[Idolater]

Impossible. Literally this is impossible.


Since when do we formulate our doctrines on extra-biblical sources, Idolater? Hmm?

I'm not formulating a doctrine, I'm floating a theory. I literally said and I quofe, “ Trumpets may have been fulfilled in AD 70 ”, emphasis on MAY.

When I say "may", it means also, by implication, "may not".

They definitely were NOT expecting any such thing. Had they done so, they would not have agreed with Paul to stay in Jerusalem and minister only to the circumcision. In other words, they understood that Israel, as a nation, had been cut off and their promised kingdom wasn't coming - not anytime soon anyway.

You're presupposing your eschatological point of view.

No, you're bonkers if you believe this unbiblical nonsense.

Those of you reading my post, note that the "un-Biblical nonsense" is that Peter and Paul anticipated Trumpets would be fulfilled soon. That's what he's saying is "un-Biblical".

Those of you reading my post, notice how Idolater just moves effortlessly from the flat out lie of "all scholars agree..."

It's hyperbole.

But also this isn't a big part of the argument it's only establishing plausibility. It could be that both Paul and Peter show in their epistles an expectation that Trumpets would be fulfilled soon. That's what I'm arguing is plausible, and I'm basing it on the fact that one of the, and perhaps the most, popular theory among Biblical scholars, is that both Paul and Peter individually appear to expect Trumpets to be fulfilled so soon, that it might be within both of theirs lifetimes.

But it wasn't. “ Trumpets may have been fulfilled in AD 70 ”

to now expecting you to accept

That's not in there, this is a discussion, I am proposing an idea. “ Trumpets may have been fulfilled in AD 70 ” I don't "expect you to accept" anything. This is a discussion.

that idiotic claim as the gospel truth.

It's an idea, a theory, a hypothesis. A notion. A possibility. It's a candidate for an established fact or factoid, or truth. “ Trumpets may have been fulfilled in AD 70 ”

My feeling is that he didn't even notice that he had done this when he wrote it. He is conditioned to believe whatever he's told to believe by his priest.


It's prima facia that it's neither!

No it isn't. You're presupposing your eschatology. You can't just say or act like you're right. This is discourse. And there are enough plausible holes in your theological theory Acts 9erism that we should be able to discuss it rather than just you treat non-Acts 9ers as all retards who don't deserve plain explanations ever. This gives us all the impression that Acts 9erism is all vibes, as the children say. It's built on sand and a house a cards.

Such stupidity.

Your idea is stupid if you're wrong.

Let's see how this works....

The Wright brothers, both of whom lived in the early 20th century, eagerly anticipated the development of commercial space travel. They both believed that flight technology was advancing rapidly and that human space travel could happen at any time. And all historians agree that they expected further breakthroughs in aviation, like any day now. But they both died before the Moon landing in 1969. So were they both bonkers? Or were they both right?

If it's plausible that Peter and Paul both anticipated Trumpets would be fulfilled very soon, like within their lifetimes maybe, then it occurring in AD 70 would be like the Wright brothers in your analogy. If the Wright brothers however had lived in like 100 BC, and it's c. AD 1900 and we still don't even have passenger jets, then I'd say the Wright brothers were getting a little ahead of themselves.

Do you see how ridiculous your form of argument is? You present a false dilemma based on an appeal to authority fallacy that is also obviously false in an attempt to support a theological idea that has no utility whatsoever

That's your opinion.

and that flat out cannot possibly be true anyway. Is this really the way you do your theology? Present an impossible idea and supported on a stool with two falsehoods for legs?

All I did was establish plausibility, which is a very mild way to analyze a proposition. First off, how plausible is this? If it's got low initial plausibility, that doesn't mean it's wrong, but it does mean you've got to do more work. And secondly, what are the other available proposals which compete against this idea I'm floating? How plausible are they? This is just a preliminary survey of the propositional landscape.

This conclusion doesn’t follow even from own argument. Even if Peter and Paul expected something to happen soon, that doesn’t prove it did happen. That’s like saying, "Since people in the 1800s expected the end of slavery worldwide, slavery must have been fully eradicated by then." That's obviously ridiculous.

Further,Hebrews speaks about Jesus as the fulfillment of the sacrificial system (e.g., Hebrews 9-10) but does not say that every Levitical feast has been completely fulfilled.

I know. Because Hebrews was written before AD 70. “ Trumpets may have been fulfilled in AD 70 ”, not before.

Even if Yom Kippur (i.e. the Day of Atonement) finds fulfillment in Christ’s atoning work

Which it does, explicitly. So that's, for the record, the Passover, Matzos, First Fruits, Pentecost and Yom Kippur, which are specifically said to be fulfilled in the New Testament. We're only needing Trumpets and Tents or Tabernacles to complete the set.

, that does not mean Trumpets was fulfilled in the first century. Hebrews 4 speaks of a "Sabbath rest" for God's people, but this is clearly pointing to a future, ultimate rest, not saying that the Sabbath was entirely fulfilled in the past. If anything, Hebrews 4:9 suggests that fulfillment is still incomplete.

Hebrews 4:9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God​

Also, your argument seems to at least imply that no future prophetic events remain, but do you also believe the resurrection, judgment, and restoration of all things already happened? If so, you're embracing full preterism, which denies fundamental Christian doctrine. If not, then you have no reason to assume the feasts are all fulfilled either because the same logic would apply.

I believe in the Creeds. Christ will come again in glory to judge, and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the World to come.

 

[Nick M]

Those of you reading my post, note that the "un-Biblical nonsense" is that Peter and Paul anticipated Trumpets would be fulfilled soon.

Prophecy is conditional. They had reason to think it could be soon. And they know it is conditional.

 

[Nick M]

I believe in the Creeds.

Do you know the parts that are wrong?

And [we believe] in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver-of-Life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spake by the prophets. And [we believe] in one, holy, catholic (universal) and Apostolic Church. We acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins, [and] we look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen

 

[Idolater]

Do you know the parts that are wrong?

Yes:

And [we believe] in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver-of-Life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spake by the prophets. And [we believe] in one, holy, catholic (universal) and Apostolic Church. We acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins, [and] we look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen

You're missing a clause, it's called "the Filioque" and it means, "Who proceeds from the Father and the Son."

 

[Nick M]

Yes:



You're missing a clause, it's called "the Filioque" and it means, "Who proceeds from the Father and the Son."

I didn't clarify I don't refer to a translation. My apologies, I made a copy and paste, and that is a website other than Wikipedia. And I know there is more than one. Baptism does lead to the remission of sin. Repentance and animal sacrifice does, aka the law of Moses leads to the remission of sin. The forgiveness of sin is at the cross. Our baptism leads to salvation as we receive his life when the Holy Spirit baptizes us into his body. I added the parenthesis and universal, as that is catholic with a small "C". Those are the mistakes in that small section. A great deal of the Nicene creed is spot on. Although the changes are not always right. He was in fact crucified under Pilate. It is removed from one version. I don't know why. And Peter says he did go to hell, so he did descend into hell, as a version states, and others do not.

 

[Clete]

I believe in the Creeds. Christ will come again in glory to judge, and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the World to come.

I noticed that you completely ignored (or more likely missed) the point of the argument but that doesn't matter. You aren't interested in whether your beliefs make any sense. It's the fact that you believe in the creeds that's your first and most important error. The only creed you need to worry about is the one we call the bible and even the creeds to which you cling cannot support the preterism that you are dabbling with. There has been NO fulfillment of prophecy of any kind since Israel was cut off - period. Every alternative falsifies the whole of Paul's ministry and message and therefore the whole of biblical Christianity. Not that you'd care about biblical Christianity.

 

[Idolater]

Do you have an event to propose that fulfills the feast of trumpets? Or are you referring to the 7 trumpets in Revelation? If the latter, then do you have 7 events to propose?

I'm very interested in the topic because I have been told that many of Leviticus 23's holidays or special days were fulfilled in Christ, we obv all agree He and His ministry fulfills or caps off Leviticus 23—at least big swaths of it. Hebrews tells us Christ has fulfilled Yom Kippur. That makes five of the seven holiday periods in Leviticus 23. What if the remaining two also were also all fulfilled, and we just didn't hear about it in Scripture, and so, if we're Sola Scriptura, then we don't even consider the prospect.

The one thing I know about trumpets is that they along with the ark of the covenant and the altar were kept (the old word keep comes from a defensive warehouse people used to store their guns and ammunition in in case of war) in the temple. The menorah, the altar, the ark—and all the trumpets are gone now, and have been since Titus erased the temple from the face of the Earth.

One thing Daniel says is that sacrifices will cease. I mean that has definitely happened, and it happened in AD 70, for sure, I don't think there's another serious candidate for either that it wasn't fulfilled, and exactly when it was fulfilled. It was fulfilled, and it was fulfilled in AD 70. Now maybe that's different from Trumpets, could be, idk. Maybe it's associated with Booths or Tabernacles? Sacrifices stopped though, and I do wonder, why wouldn't the Levites go back to living in booths or tabernacles, like they all did before Solomon's temple? Why just give up entirely?

But nonetheless they all did. There's no more sacrifices under the Old Law, and it's been that way uniformly since AD 70. Sacrifices have stopped, just like Daniel said.

 

[Idolater]

Why is Classic versus Open theism a heaven or hell matter? I really have never participated in debates about these two theologies.

Grin. There are just people here who do NOT know how to have a civil discussion. They don't actually believe it's a "heaven or hell" matter. lol.

Sorry for your confusion.

Oh well, here are three examples I like to ponder regarding God's will and his knowing how everything ends and man's gift of freewill.

Queen Esther's uncle once posed this question to her [paraphrased]: Perhaps you were meant for a time like this and if you fail to pick up your destiny God will choose someone else. You will suffer while someone else accomplishes God's will and is rewarded.

After God rejected Cain's form of an offering He asked angry Cain this question, "Do you not know IF IF IF you do well you will be accepted?"

Lutherans will say, citing Luther's Bondage of the Will, that law is merely to convict us, we're not judged on how well we follow the law in any way, under Lutheranism. So it doesn't prove free will, just because God tells us to do something, it doesn't mean we're actually free to choose to do it, but it definitely does convict you of sin (because we have all fallen short).

Samson was chosen before he was born to accomplish God's will to rid that area of the Promised Land of the Philistines. Along the way Samson did everything against God's will which should have stopped God's plan for him, but God used him anyway at the very end to kill more Philistines than ever before ...

Samson's a good example, and an interesting one. I still think Christ's prophecy of Peter's trifold denial before the rooster crowed is the key example.

All three of these smack of the co-existence of God's will and man's will.

Peter chose to deny Him three times before the rooster crowed, and Christ chose to tell Peter beforehand.

Just because God knows how everything is going to turn out in the end does not mean an individual has to take the high road. [If] a person fails at his purpose from God, God will use someone else.

Or not—like with Samson. Samson's an interesting example.

Personal experience for what ever it is worth. I think it sort of relates to this topic about God's will versus the free will behaviors of men. Our having a free will or refusing to listen to God's will is going to change the end God knows is ahead. [???] Still a seeker of how things work.

While driving my car the still small voice of God said: "Wreck."
I did everything I knew to be safe ... even took a longer but safer way home and remembered to use all my driving signals when needed. I got to my street with signals on for turning toward my house and wham!!! A woman on her phone slammed into the back of my car.

I asked God, "I heard your warning and did all I could to trust you. Why was I still in a wreck? He simply said, "You were listening." And I understood he meant she wasn't. This was an example of how she was living out her will not His; so, we were in a wreck.

Yet, God protected me. Car totaled but I was not hurt. A bit of back strain. The man in the car behind her's stayed until the police came and explained everything to the police. God took care of me even though she was not listening. She was speeding, had just passed him in a right turn lane that was running out, and was on her phone. I had my blinker on for my turn.

Did you not see her coming?

 

[Idolater]

The trumpets in Revelation are the fulfillment of the Feast of Trumpets.

The feasts in Leviticus 23 were supposed to have all been fulfilled in order with Christ's first coming, and His second coming was supposed to be soon after, within 7 years.

And there are seven holidays /feasts /festivals /etc. in Leviticus 23, and five of them are explicitly fulfilled in the New Testament by Christ and His ministry and coming. So, maybe the other two also were. And maybe Revelation was written before AD 70.

 

[Idolater]

I agree, mostly. But if @Idolater thinks it was already fulfilled, I'm curious what event/events meet the criteria in or around 70ad.

The trumpets are all gone, the ark is gone, the altar's gone, the temple's dust, sacrifices have stopped indefinitely. These all just have to be chalked up to something, and maybe that something is positive prophecy and not "mystery." I mean, it's a mystery if just five but not all seven of Leviticus 23's special days are fulfilled in Christ already, I grant that ofc. But what if they are all already fulfilled? Does that change anything? Also in the early second century, literally every Jew was expelled from the Holy Land, to a man.¹ Again, this doesn't appear in the Bible, so if we're Sola Scriptura we could miss it. Was that any part of fulfilled prophecy? These are gigantic historical landmarks especially in our faith.


¹ This is like the Assyrian and Babylonian exiles. idk what it is about wanting to exile Jews from the Holy Land, but it occurred to multiple occupying forces who conquered Israel and Judah. Like, "Let's just kick all these people out of the land instead of try to govern them." It's definitely better than putting them all to death, so I guess there's that.

btw @Nick M idk what the fullness of the Gentiles is either, but I have no trouble believing that during the time when all Jews and Israelites and Judahites and Jerusalemites are not living in the Holy Land anymore, that sounds like a time of Gentiles to me. But who knows.

 

[Idolater]

Or this.

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

Question, do you know what a mystery is? That isn't rhetorical. They didn't know, the plans changed. It was not revealed before. It is conjecture to say what fullness of the gentiles even is. I have an idea. And someone else has an idea, and he studies the scripture far more than me. Not the late Bob Hill in this case. Israel was cut off. Temporarily. That is all we know. Well we do know Israel has to be resurrected to be placed in their land. They all had to die first.

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”


10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?

Nicodemus was supposed to know. It is prophecy. Point being, it didn't happen. Israel is not occupied by people described in John 3:8, and the Lord Jesus Christ is not ruling from Jerusalem, shouldering the government.

The descendants of the first and second century Judahites and Israelites were allowed to return to the Holy Land in like the 1800s or something. And as everybody knows they weren't allowed to be a nation state until after WWII. That's like an 1800 year absence. That's some kind of resurrection—isn't it? I mean, metaphorically? Symbolically?

But yeah idk either, it is mysterious.

 

[Idolater]

I noticed that you completely ignored (or more likely missed) the point of the argument but that doesn't matter. You aren't interested in whether your beliefs make any sense. It's the fact that you believe in the creeds that's your first and most important error. The only creed you need to worry about is the one we call the bible and even the creeds to which you cling cannot support the preterism that you are dabbling with. There has been NO fulfillment of prophecy of any kind since Israel was cut off - period. Every alternative falsifies the whole of Paul's ministry and message and therefore the whole of biblical Christianity. Not that you'd care about biblical Christianity.

I believe in math and I believe in engineering. Engineers tell me I can trust the calculator to do math for me. To then now believe in the calculator like I believe in math and engineering is a bit tenuous, I get that. But the calculator is never going to be the standard if there's a conflict between the math or engineering textbook and the calculator, we're not going to correct the texts because the calculator said so. That's something the JWs do, and the Lutherans, who just deleted seven books from the texts, because the calculator said to. Or at least, it said it was OK to delete them. I mean something like that.

So any calculator that's going to have you redacting texts is definitely bonkers. You should either replace it or at least try to fix it until it tells you accurately what the texts say.

 

[Nick M]

That's some kind of resurrection—isn't it?

No.

Ezekiel 37

12 Therefore prophesy and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves. 14 I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land.

In case you can't tell, this kingdom is on earth. Many protestants that are saved are wrong.

22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

24 “David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. 25 Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children’s children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever.



He will put his Spirit in them. Someone else said this about the kingdom. This is not keeping his statutes. This is not happening.

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

 

[JudgeRightly]

And there are seven holidays /feasts /festivals /etc. in Leviticus 23, and five of them are explicitly fulfilled in the New Testament by Christ and His ministry and coming.

The feasts specifically represent events of the end times. Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection was supposed to have kicked off the Time of Jacob's Trouble, AKA the Great Tribulation. But it never finished. Why? Because Israel rejected her Messiah, and killed Stephen. And so, because of Jeremiah 18, God could not return to establish His Kingdom in Israel, because she had turned away from Him, and done evil in His sight.

So, maybe the other two also were.

Again:

Feast of trumpets = the Seven Trumpets in Revelation.
Day of Atonement = Revelation 4-5
Feast of Tabernacles = Millennial Kingdom

None of these things have happened yet.

Therefore none of them could have occurred in AD 70.

And maybe Revelation was written before AD 70.

There's almost zero chance it was written before AD 90.

And since the events in Revelation haven't happened yet, and Christ has not returned to reign for a thousand years, it makes no sense for anything in Scripture to have been fulfilled in AD 70.

 

[Idolater]

No.

Ezekiel 37

12 Therefore prophesy and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves. 14 I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land.

In case you can't tell, this kingdom is on earth. Many protestants that are saved are wrong.

22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

24 “David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. 25 Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children’s children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever.

View attachment 13895

He will put his Spirit in them. Someone else said this about the kingdom. This is not keeping his statutes. This is not happening.

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

For 1800 years they weren't there, and now they are. That's all I'm saying. And you're just brushing it off like it's nothing, because they're waving a flag supporting faggotry and other forms of impurity. They're still not sacrificing, none of them. And they still are going to have to do something about that Dome of the Rock. But they're there now, after 1800 years of not being there, I'm just not so 100% thoroughly convinced that it means nothing as you are.

And btw can that girl put some clothes on? And you're like, "Which one?" And I'm like, "Exactly."

 

[Idolater]

The feasts specifically represent events of the end times. Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection was supposed to have kicked off the Time of Jacob's Trouble, AKA the Great Tribulation. But it never finished. Why? Because Israel rejected her Messiah, and killed Stephen. And so, because of Jeremiah 18, God could not return to establish His Kingdom in Israel, because she had turned away from Him, and done evil in His sight.



Again:

Feast of trumpets = the Seven Trumpets in Revelation.
Day of Atonement

Hebrews confirms Yom Kippur is fulfilled. If that were not the case I wouldn't be floating the idea that perhaps all seven Leviticus 23 feasts, festivals, holidays, etc., have already been fulfilled. I guess it all depends on Hebrews saying or claiming that Yom Kippur is fulfilled. One thing's for sure, it's the right book of the Bible to answer the question, because it was literally written to them.

= Revelation 4-5
Feast of Tabernacles = Millennial Kingdom

None of these things have happened yet.

Therefore none of them could have occurred in AD 70.

You have a very dogmatic view of Revelation. When I've set out the case that Mr. 666 is Nero I didn't get your response to that. We literally have the coins with his name and image on them, made of gold, all of those are mentioned in Revelation, about Mr. 666.

There's almost zero chance it was written before AD 90.

And since the events in Revelation haven't happened yet, and Christ has not returned to reign for a thousand years, it makes no sense for anything in Scripture to have been fulfilled in AD 70.

Except unless Nero is Mr. 666. I basically agree with you, unless Nero is Mr. 666. And I find the argument that it's Nero persuasive. It even explains why some copies of Revelation manuscripts have the Number of the Beast as 616 instead of 666, because Nero's name in Greek as opposed to Hebrew, numerologically sums to 616, while in the Hebrew, Caesar Nero or Kaesar Neron in the Greek I think, sums to 666. It explains the exception and the rule, so that's a very persuasive argument to me.