Maunday Thursday

Derf

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Why did you say there were two Sabbaths that week?
The feast of unleavened bread starts with the day of passover, which is a sabbath day no matter which day of the week it falls on. If on Friday, it makes for two sabbath days in a row (neither of which would work for the women to go to the tomb, apparently, so they waited until Sunday morning).

Some have even suggested Jesus was crucified on a Wednesday, and there were 3 sabbath in a row. I don't remember what the third sabbath was related to.
 

JudgeRightly

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Why are you bringing a midnight-to-midnight calendar day into the conversation when we are talking about a time line from 2000 years ago?

Because we live in the present, and it's easier for people today to understand.

BTW, you say that the Messiah was crucified on Thursday. But Maundy Thursday is defined as the day before a Friday crucifixion.

Right, that's because it assumes a Friday crucifixion. I'm challenging that assumption.
 

JudgeRightly

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The feast of unleavened bread starts with the day of passover, which is a sabbath day no matter which day of the week it falls on. If on Friday, it makes for two sabbath days in a row (neither of which would work for the women to go to the tomb, apparently, so they waited until Sunday morning).

Some have even suggested Jesus was crucified on a Wednesday, and there were 3 sabbath in a row. I don't remember what the third sabbath was related to.

The crucial point is that Christ was the passover Lamb. He was killed the same day that the animal lamb was being killed (probably at the same time), in preparation for the Passover, since they could not do any work on the passover, it had to be done before.

Thursday crucifixion Friday Passover makes sense. Friday crucifixion does not.
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
The crucial point is that Christ was the passover Lamb. He was killed the same day that the animal lamb was being killed (probably at the same time), in preparation for the Passover, since they could not do any work on the passover, it had to be done before.

I was thinking along the same lines, but the thing is that they ate the Passover the night in which He was betrayed, meaning the Passover lambs had already been killed by then.

Given they counted a day's beginning at nightfall, then that would make the night in which He was betrayed 15 Nisan. Lambs were to be killed during 14 Nisan.

Thursday crucifixion Friday Passover makes sense. Friday crucifixion does not.

If the Sabbath during any Passover is a "high Sabbath" that comports with the Gospel narratives.
 

Derf

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The crucial point is that Christ was the passover Lamb. He was killed the same day that the animal lamb was being killed (probably at the same time), in preparation for the Passover, since they could not do any work on the passover, it had to be done before.

Thursday crucifixion Friday Passover makes sense. Friday crucifixion does not.
In terms of the high sabbath, it could still work for the passover to be on a Saturday (Friday evening). Christ's death would occur in the afternoon (the "evening" seems to mean while the sun is going down...from its apex that day). But there are other things in play. The requirements for the passover include selecting the lamb (goat kid was ok) on the 10th of the month, and keeping it with the family until the 14th, when the sacrifice was accomplished. I think Jesus' triumphal entry is the selection, and it occurred on Sunday. The 14th would be Thursday. But if they kill the lamb on the 14th, they eat it on the 15th, after sundown of the 14th.

As @Idolater mentioned, the synoptic gospels indicate that Jesus ate the passover meal on the night before He was killed. One suggestion I've heard to reconcile this is that the Galilee passover ended up one day earlier because of when the new moon was first seen there compared to Jerusalem. Or perhaps they were "beyond the Jordan" at the new moon, something like that. I don't know why Jesus ate "the passover" with His disciples a day earlier than the leaders of Jerusalem ate the passover.

I expect that if we understand the timing correctly, it would pinpoint the correct year of His crucifixion as well.
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
In your post #4 you said "The next day, after the night He was betrayed, He was put to death, on Friday.
So, after the Thursday night that He was betrayed, and after Thursday daytime, and after Friday night time He was crucified at 9am?

15 Nisan began on the night in which He was betrayed. In modern parlance it was Thursday night, but according to thinking the evening comes first followed by the day, they would have said the night in which He was betrayed was Friday night, followed by Friday day. We would call that Thursday night.
 

rstrats

Active member
Because we live in the present, and it's easier for people today to understand.



Right, that's because it assumes a Friday crucifixion. I'm challenging that assumption.
That's fine. Just that it's an issue for a different topic. Maybe you might start one.
 

rstrats

Active member
15 Nisan began on the night in which He was betrayed. In modern parlance it was Thursday night, but according to thinking the evening comes first followed by the day, they would have said the night in which He was betrayed was Friday night, followed by Friday day. We would call that Thursday night.
I'm getting confused here. so let me try this:

First let me say that this topic is based on the idea that a calendar day is defined as a period of time between sunsets.
Thursday------------Friday-----------Saturday
/xxxxxxxoooooo/xxxxxxxoooooo/xxxxxxxoooooo/
"x" equals night time and "o" equals daytime.

So, when did the supper take place - sometime during the x's or sometime during the o's on Thursday?
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
I'm getting confused here.

From dusk to dusk is a day, according to ancient Judean tradition. For most of us, it's from dawn to dawn. (Also appears to me that in Genesis one, it's also from dawn to dawn, but whatever.)

so let me try this:

First let me say that this topic is based on the idea that a calendar day is defined as a period of time between sunsets.
Thursday------------Friday-----------Saturday
/xxxxxxxoooooo/xxxxxxxoooooo/xxxxxxxoooooo/
"x" equals night time and "o" equals daytime.

So, when did the supper take place - sometime during the x's or sometime during the o's on Thursday?

So based on this division it happened during the x's on Friday. In our division, where a day begins with dawn, it was Thursday night, but in the division in your post, it was Friday, where Friday is defined as from dusk on Thursday till dusk on Friday.
 

rstrats

Active member
So based on this division it happened during the x's on Friday.
When I wrote in the OP, "Does anyone who is familiar with Maundy Thursday..." I should have written, "Does anyone who believes in Maundy Thursday...." Since you don't, this topic does not apply to you. As for the rest of your comments, I don't understand them.
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
When I wrote in the OP, "Does anyone who is familiar with Maundy Thursday..." I should have written, "Does anyone who believes in Maundy Thursday...." Since you don't, this topic does not apply to you.

But I do.

As for the rest of your comments, I don't understand them.

You do seem to be confused but it's understandable since we typically think of days as starting with daytime instead of nighttime.
 

Derf

Well-known member
15 Nisan began on the night in which He was betrayed.
Only true if Jesus was NOT killed at the same time as the passover lambs. And I think 15 Nisan was the first day of Unleavened Bread (the day they left, which was after the passover had been killed). Unleavened Bread starts and ends with a high sabbath. So for the priests and religious leaders to be concerned about entering a Gentile before the passover and Unleavened Bread, which would supposedly make them unclean and missteps festivities, Jesus had to have been killed on 14 Nisan, which fits well with the killing of passover lambs. This timeline is from the gospel of John, and it appears to conflict with the other gospels' timeline. But Jesus may have been using a slightly different calendar than the leaders in Jerusalem.
In modern parlance it was Thursday night, but according to thinking the evening comes first followed by the day, they would have said the night in which He was betrayed was Friday night, followed by Friday day. We would call that Thursday night.
Agreed in terms of the evening and morning defining a day.
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Only true if Jesus was NOT killed at the same time as the passover lambs. And I think 15 Nisan was the first day of Unleavened Bread (the day they left, which was after the passover had been killed). Unleavened Bread starts and ends with a high sabbath. So for the priests and religious leaders to be concerned about entering a Gentile before the passover and Unleavened Bread, which would supposedly make them unclean and missteps festivities, Jesus had to have been killed on 14 Nisan, which fits well with the killing of passover lambs. This timeline is from the gospel of John, and it appears to conflict with the other gospels' timeline. But Jesus may have been using a slightly different calendar than the leaders in Jerusalem.

Do you think Palm Sunday was 10 Nisan?

Also the following is probably what you mean by "timeline ... from the gospel of John ... appears to conflict with the other gospels' timeline"?

$$ Mr 14:12
And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

EDIT
Isn't 15 Nisan the first day of matzos? But 14 Nisan is when the Passover is to be killed. So if anything this accelerates the timeline, doesn't it? Doesn't that mean it's maybe even two days's difference, if how you're reading John's account is right?
 
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Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
In what division does a new calendar 24 hour day begin at dawn? I've never heard that one before.

But you've heard of it beginning at dusk. So you can imagine it. It's just the inverse.
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Of course, that's how it was during the Messiah's time.

Sure. What's your point with regard to my question, though? What time system - you call it division - does a new calendar day start at dawn.

Well ours begins at midnight, the midpoint between dusk and dawn.

When you count a day from dusk to dusk, the daytime follows the nighttime. So 15 Nisan was on "Friday evening", meaning, c. 7:30 PM, just based on the 2025 calendar, if we take 2025 to be a typical year, because that's about when dusk occurs on 15 Nisan in 2025, in the land of Israel.

But 7:30 PM following Thursday's daytime is what we call Thursday evening, not Friday evening, because we start our days at midnight. But, if you start your days at dusk, then the Last Supper when Jesus and His Apostles ate the Passover lamb and the Eucharist for the first time, was Friday evening, and He would be put to death later on that same Friday, during Friday daytime, which follows Friday nighttime, when you start your days at dusk.

So the days's daytimes are the same for both of us, we both call the daytime when Jesus was crucified Friday. It's just that that same night, was that Friday evening, or Saturday? obv it was Saturday in the Bible because the Sabbath began, which was also a high day, because it was during the feast of matzos.


$$ Ge 1:3
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
$$ Ge 1:4
And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
$$ Ge 1:5
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

There was evening and then all of a sudden it was daytime (like in the Truman Show movie toward the end), because He created light. He called the light Day and the darkness Night, and then they are flipped around, and the evening and then the morning were the first day.
 

JudgeRightly

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@Idolater @rstrats I found the show I was looking for.


Bob had a guest on, Dr. Grady McMurtry, who went through, in detail, when the events surrounding Christ's crucifixion occurred, and why it was, in fact, on a Thursday that Christ was crucified, and not a Friday, using two different methods.

There is also another thread worth looking through here on TOL:


That's fine. Just that it's an issue for a different topic. Maybe you might start one.

Except it's not a different topic.

If the Biblical narrative shows Christ being crucified on Thursday, and not on Friday, as tradition supposes, then "Maundy Thursday" should be a different day of the week, not Thursday.

Ideas have consequences.

If you're looking in the wrong place for truth, you'll never find it.
 

PureX

Well-known member
Somewhere
Does anyone who is familiar with Maundy Thursday, the day during Holy Week which commemorates the washing of the feet and last supper of the Messiah with the apostles know what part of Thursday that this took place - during the night time at the beginning of Thursday, or during the daytime toward the end of Thursday?
Somewhere in the back of my addled brain I thought Maunday Thursday was the beginning of the Marti Gras.
 
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