It is also possible the Clete, and others, have not yet shared anything that would cause me to question what I believe to be true about Christ’s teachings.
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Has the Church Replaced Israel ?
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If you think that Clete is "legalistic", then you are delusional.
Possible.
Huh? Clairify what? I think my comment speaks for itself.
I agree that the law teaches it live a good life. I do not agree that the law is used to judge us. Christ took care of that by His sacrifice on the cross. I also think that Christ left us a great teaching about living a good life in the Sermon on the Mount. If we take that to heart, that is a great way to live.
I think one of the most terrifying verses in the Bible is when Paul says, “Nothing is forbidden me.” I know there is much more after that but looking at the one verse tells me that Christ’s sacrifice on the cross freed me from judgment. Sober verse.
That's not the intent of the law.
The law is a tutor to bring men to Christ!
By "us" do you mean Christians? or do you mean "humans"?
Christians are no longer under the law.
But the world still is.
We establish the law, as Paul says.
The law is not for the righteous man, Cab.
The law is for the sinner.
The Sermon on the Mount wasn't for Christians, it was for how to live in the Millennial Kingdom, where Christ Himself will be ruling with an iron rod, where crime will be punished almost immediately!
It has no bearing on today's society.
You need to reread Romans.
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Yes, please clarify your issue with my comment. Don't be offended that I need clarification.
Your churchianity comment says to me, that you're doing the same thing to other
Christians what you accuse me of doing.
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I still have no idea what you actually mean. I think that you do not understand what I mean by Churchianity.
Churchianity is the majority view that teaches some truth, but many myths about Christianity.
WHAT ON PLANET EARTH ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!!!!
Us?
No, not us! Unbelievers! Just what is it that you think unbelievers are going to be judged by on judgment day if not God's moral law?
Not for unbelievers He didn't!
Christ's blood isn't applied to you unless and until you become a believer. Until then, you're condemned already, as Jesus Himself stated.
Further, the fact that believers aren't under the law in relation to God, does not mean that everything should be legal in terms of society. Just because a murderer can be saved by grace, doesn't mean that he shouldn't be punished for his crime by the governing official. It should still be very much against the law to commit murder, rape, adultery, sodomy, etc and those convicted of those crimes should be executed as justice demands as God explains quite clearly in the bible. In fact, there is a whole criminal justice system laid out plain as day in the bible and if our laws looked anything like it, there wouldn't hardly be any murderers, rapists or sodomites in the country! Certainly not any compared to the overwhelming flood of them that we have today!
The Sermon on the Mount is a teaching that has to do with how to live during Israel's time of trouble (a.k.a. Daniel's 70th week, a.k.a. the tribulation). The idea is to live as though you know that Jesus is going to be King and you'll see justice soon enough.
Do you actually believe that Paul believed that child molestation wasn't forbidden of him?
PLEASE tell me that you do not believe that!
Christ's sacrifice on the cross means unbelievers will not be judged under the law. Instead, God will ask them, ask each of us, "What did you do with my Son?"
That is why that verse is terrifying. Of course, Paul understood that while nothing is forbidden him, not all things are beneficial. We also learn that those who willingly continue in drunkenness, and sexual immorality, and other sins are in danger of damnation. Goes back to the same thing: if Christ is truly accepted into your heart, will you willing contuse doing things the law teaches us is wrong.
I do not honestly believe that God and Jesus are sitting on there thrones gleefully rubbing their hands at all the judgements they are going to get to hand down. I believe God is far, FAR more interested in redeeming us to Him.
Chapter and verse please? (hint: it doesn't exist)
Ridiculous!
Contradict yourself much?
If Paul permitted all things why did he command his followers not to even eat with people who commit sexual sins? Why, oh why, did Paul explicitly state that people such as murderers and sodomites "deserve death"? What could Paul have possibly meant by "the law is good, if used lawfully" and that "the law is a tutor"?
Well, you're wrong. They may not be "gleeful" about it but I can assure you that the God Who is Justice itself, is very much looking forward, along with all the saints, to the day when evil is dealt with and evil men get what is their just reward.
There is no question that God would rather save than to condemn but that doesn't mean He's going to have any less joy in His heart when justice is pressed upon the evil doer than will those who were the evil doer's victims.
Revelation 6:10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
No, it doesn't exist. I heard this teaching from a teacher on the radio years ago. I do so wish I could remember his name. Anyway, I heard that teaching and his support for it and have thought about it for a long time. I have come to believe he was correct.
I don't see any contradiction. I see what Paul wrote in several places in scripture. Scripture can be difficult to understand at times. But I don't see a contradiction. I do wish I shared Paul's clarity.
I agree that God will sit in judgement. He will be fair and just. I do not think He will be happy about condemning people to be away from Him. If He were happy to judge people for our violations of the law He would not have sent us His Son to save us from judgement under the law.
Also, my apologies for the "legalism" comment. I was out of order and rude. I will try to do better.
I still believe that the Sermon on the Mount is an invaluable guide to living a good life. Not long after I accepted Christ, our pastor talked about this Sermon. He said that he had also been taught along the lines of it being in the Millennial kingdom. One day, he stopped to truly think about the Sermon and wondered what would it be like to live that Sermon every day. He concluded that attempting to live up to those standards everyday would lead to a good life. He understands that we will not do so perfectly, but He also understands that God is forgiving. I would say that if today's society were to try to live by these standards our society would be much better than what we have.
I would just like to point out that Jesus said He will be the one doing the judging.
| Joh_5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: |
And the Son will commit judgement to the saints:
Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 6:2 - New King James Version
Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
Look, it isn't as if God is going to be jumping for joy that the wicked are sent to an eternal Hell but the judgment of the wicked is a good and righteous thing! It isn't fun, but it is the right thing to do and it, like all things righteous, will bring forth joy, blessing, happiness and contentment throughout the rest of all eternity for those who belong to God.
Judging is a GOOD thing! You should practice justice, CM. It actually becomes sort of fun. My wife and I are fans of true crime shows. We got into it because most everything else on television these days has some homo on it or promotes some other form of sexual immorality or is just generally gross for one reason or other. At least the true crime stuff is about catching the bad guys, right? Anyway, when we watch those shows, I'm all the time thinking about all the various people who were involved and which of them committed crimes and what the punishment for those crimes would have been and whether or not anyone would have ever gotten murdered (almost all true crime stories are about murders) in the first place had the law been just.
We (my wife and I) figured out really quickly that if you don't want to get murdered and you don't want to ever be a murderer, you can avoid both fates at once by simply doing three things....
1. Don't get drunk or high.
2. Don't hang out with people who get drunk or high.
3. Do not have sex with ANYONE that you aren't married to.
Just those three things and you are safe from every kind of murder except for any form of stranger murder (e.g. mass murder, terrorist attack, serial murder, etc.). If fornication, getting high (or drunk - same thing) and adultery were against the law, as they ought to be, the murder rate would be next to zero.
But it doesn't have to be true crime shows! Just listen to the news or pay attention to the things that happen around you and think in terms of God's criminal justice system and practice doing justice. Meaning, notice it when someone does something that God says should be a crime and think through what the punishment for that crime should be and what the results of such a punishment would have on the society.
If you do it for very long at all, you'll start to wonder just how in the world God puts up with mankind and you'll quickly realize just how far away western civilization has fallen from anything that resembles justice and you'll start to see just how evil sexual perverts actually are. They very simply are not the normal people our society (and most Christians) want everyone to think they are. They are guilty of a crime that is ineffably devastating to nearly every aspect of society. It is impossible to calculate the thousands - millions - of innocent people that are dead today because we tolerate sexual perverts in our society. If they're witnessed to at all, it ought to be on the way to the gallows.
Clete
Cain, to the best of our knowledge, was neither drunk nor having sex outside of marriage. I don't believe Able was a drunkard either. In today's society, I don't no think that avoiding those three behaviors will greatly reduce your chances of getting murdered. There have been a lot of mass shootings that have not involved drugs and sex.
As to western justice, it has strayed so far away form any concept of justice that it is largely meaningless. In fact, it seems to do more to punish the victim rather than the criminal. I hold to punishing the criminals. So sad they had a rough upbringing, but they are still responsible for their actions. I can even forgive them for their actions against me but that does not mean that they should not pay the consequences for their crimes.
One lace I struggle with is whether or not adulterers should be killed. I general, I do support the death penalty. I am just not sure what the breadth of the laws that should be bear that penalty under the New Covenant.
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The United States of America is not under the "new covenant" and neither are you.