"Son of Man"

[Derf]

I define death and human the same way the Bible defines them, and in both cases, YOU have no clue what they mean. But, I will give you another opportunity to read the Bible and find out what they mean. Perhaps then you will no longer be a moron, and will come to understand why Jesus is God who came in the flesh and died on a cross for our sins, and was raised from the dead. (Hint: What was raised? Where was Jesus after He died and before He was raised?)

Could you give the definition for death from the bible? I'm in agreement with you that Jesus is God and that Jesus died, but @Hilltrot is right to question Jesus' "death" if it's not like other deaths of humans.

 

[Hilltrot]

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Colossians 2:8-9

Now at this point Paul, who is inspired to write this, has two options. He can say the fullness of God dwelled bodily in Christ or he can say Christ is the one true God. Why did he say the former and not the latter? I would say that most likely it is because he meant the former and not the latter. Paul did not believe Jesus was the one true God.

"Philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men" directly refers to such things as the trinity. Paul is calling the trinity silly. The trinity evolved itself out of Platonism.

You might think it a logical inconsistency, but it is declared in scripture that Christ - also called Immanuel ("God with us") - had all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Natural thinking says that if God can be "localized" then he is minimized and reduced to something less than what "contains" Him (i.e. mankind or humanity).

It's not just me, that Bible hymn is found all over the U.S. in almost every church which has a hymnal. And have you bothered to read the surveys done of congregations?

Omnipresence is another Platonic belief which I don't hold to. At least not in the Platonic sense.

But Paul tells the Philippians this :

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Philippians 2:5-11


First, it makes no sense to talk about taking the "form" of a servant if you don't look at what "form" He had previously. Verse 6 clearly said Christ was in the form of God. He took upon himself the form of a servant and made in the likeness of men. His humanity was something that He took upon Himself in such a way that - while He was still in the form of God - He became identified completely with humanity. This is the same whose essence is said to be "The Word" and which is directly identified as God (John 1:1). John says the Word was both WITH God and WAS God. That is not something that can be handled by mere logic of man.

If you're the Son of God, The Messiah, the King, etc. then yes to take on the form of a servant is to humble oneself.

form = image. See Mark 16:12. (Although I don't agree with the longer ending of Mark, it is still written near the time period in the same Greek.

Image of God. See Pauls reference to Jesus and Adam in Romans chapter 5.

More important is the second half of that same line - equality with God, much less being the one true God, was not something he could grasp.

How could the one true God consider it impossible to be equal to the one true God?

"and made in the likeness of men." The verse is just stating the obvious - Jesus was human.

"This is the same whose essence is said to be "The Word" and which is directly identified as God (John 1:1). John says the Word was both WITH God and WAS God. That is not something that can be handled by mere logic of man."

It's simple. In my beginning, was my hand. My hand was with me and my hand and was me. All of this is logically and simply correct. My hand is not a separate being. It doesn't have a mind of its own. Now switch word for my hand and God for me. It makes perfect sense. The word of God is not a separate being.

And when Christ was on earth, He said something that was either utter blasphemy or made Himself God :

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
John 8:58

This is the very same thing God told Moses to tell Pharaoh when he would ask Moses who sent him.

Well-loved passage by those who are defending the trinity. However, the context shows that this interpretation is dead wrong.

First, The passage itself says "before Abraham was, I am he." The "I AM" in all caps is a much later commentary added to the Bible.

If Jesus was saying that he was God and remain cryptic for some reason, he would have said "before the world was I am he." This would indicate his equality with God. However, he said "before Abraham was, I am he." The makes Jesus greater than Abraham which he is. This makes better sense with the 53rd verse.

There is a common misconception pushed onto this passage that the people were going to stone Jesus because he said he was God. Within the context of the book, that makes no sense. In the very next chapter, the Jewish leaders were throwing anyone who said Jesus was the Messiah out of the synagogues - not that Jesus was God.

Next, we have Jesus's personal style. Whenever people correctly identified him, he would respond in the affirmative. John 4:26, John 13:13, John 13:19, John 18:5-8, Matthew 16:17, Matthew 26:64, Matthew 27:11, etc. Similarly, 8:58 was an answer to the question in 8:53.

I can add that in addition, The blind man who is healed also says "I am" in the very next chapter. Is he the one true God too?

And Jesus even claimed to be equal with God.

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
John 5:18

When reading John, you need to remember that the opposing Jews are wrong. It's like quoting Job's friends to bolster your position on what God is like. Immediately, Jesus explains how the Son is subordinate to the Father.

Looking at Philippians 2 again, it's clear that we have someone who was (and is) equal with God.

It's clearly the opposite for me.

Now...as to the question - did God die? I don't see it that way since I see Christ's humanity as the matter of His voluntary humiliation unto death. God can't die. But taking on the form of a man, Christ can and did) taste death for every man. But at the same time, Christ died so that He could overcome death. He didn't die like a man dies and is chained by it. He died in that He entered INTO it to break the power of it. The only victor over it!

Yes, this is similar to how I would word my trinity arguments as well.

I Timothy 6:16 says that Christ alone has immortality. Can God be separated from God? Maybe this is just a difference of semantics, but if Christ is dead, how does He defeat death? That's why He could say He has the keys to death, hell and the grave. He triumphed over it because He defeated it. It didn't defeat Him. Was He separated from the Father? Yes. But would you say He didn't have life in Himself?

Unless you think no one saw Jesus, this passage is about Jesus - not God.

 

[Hilltrot]

I define death and human the same way the Bible defines them, and in both cases, YOU have no clue what they mean. But, I will give you another opportunity to read the Bible and find out what they mean. Perhaps then you will no longer be a moron, and will come to understand why Jesus is God who came in the flesh and died on a cross for our sins, and was raised from the dead. (Hint: What was raised? Where was Jesus after He died and before He was raised?)

So, salvation is an IQ test?

 

[JudgeRightly]

One has an explanation of death in John 11. Another is in Luke 20:34-38.

Please clarify.

 

[OZOS]

Could you give the definition for death from the bible? I'm in agreement with you that Jesus is God and that Jesus died, but @Hilltrot is right to question Jesus' "death" if it's not like other deaths of humans.

I did, a few posts back. The Bible gives several examples of death being separation. Adam was separated from the life of God. Jesus was separated from His body. Believers have been separated from sin, law, wrath, darkness, etc. Unbelievers will experience a second death, eternal separation from God.

 

[OZOS]

So, salvation is an IQ test?

No, salvation is passing from death to life. It is receiving the very life of God, by His Spirit which indwells all those who believe Him concerning His Son. The Bible is a written testimony concerning who Jesus is and what He has done. You are without excuse for not believing what it says about who Jesus is and what He has done.

 

[Derf]

I did, a few posts back. The Bible gives several examples of death being separation. Adam was separated from the life of God. Jesus was separated from His body. Believers have been separated from sin, law, wrath, darkness, etc. Unbelievers will experience a second death, eternal separation from God.

I see you gave your definition of death and said it was from the bible, but I don't see anywhere that you showed where it was from in the bible. The second death is easy. It's defined in Rev 20 as "the lake of fire", which is NOT the same as defining it as "separation", though that may indeed be part of it.

If the second death is defined as something besides separation, and the bible never explicitly defines the first death as separation, are you sure you aren't being too hasty in defining death as separation and calling it the biblical definition?

 

[OZOS]

I see you gave your definition of death and said it was from the bible, but I don't see anywhere that you showed where it was from in the bible. The second death is easy. It's defined in Rev 20 as "the lake of fire", which is NOT the same as defining it as "separation", though that may indeed be part of it.

If the second death is defined as something besides separation, and the bible never explicitly defines the first death as separation, are you sure you aren't being too hasty in defining death as separation and calling it the biblical definition?

I had assumed that you were familiar with the Bible, so I gave you an overview of the things I shared. My mistake. However, I'm not going to post every verse that corresponds to what I'm about to say. You can either review the Bible on your own, or ask someone to show you know who cares about your blatant ignorance.

The Bible does explicitly tell us that Adam died the day he ate from the tree, yet Adam still lived.
We also know, or should know, if we've read the Bible, that because of his death from his disobedience, death spread to all men, for the wages of sin is death. So, what died when Adam sinned, since he still lived and all those after him still lived, even though the Bible says they are already dead.

"And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins"

Whether you agree or not, or whether you are satisfied with my answers or not, the Bible is clear that ALL men are dead because of the sin of one man, and because all men are dead all men are sinners.

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned"

So, what does it mean when the Bible says that Adam died, if he was still living? And what does it mean if all men are dead, even though they are living. Well, we know that it is the Spirit that gives life (Jn 6:6; 2 Cor 3:6), and anyone who is dead because of sin, receives His life when they are indwelt by His Spirit, having believed the gospel.

"Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit." 1 Jn 4:13

We were once in Adam (dead), but are now in Christ (alive)

"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive." 1 Cor 15:22

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." 1 John 5:11-12

So, we know that men are dead before they receive life. Men are separate from life, because they are dead. The Bible defines death as being separate from having life. The Bible also describes all those who receive the life of God as having died, and yet they live.

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me" Gal 2:20

"For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God" Colossians 3:3

"Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him"

Having been crucified with Christ and having died with Christ, is to be separated from who we were in Adam, and also to be separated from sin, and the Law.

"But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter."

"How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"

"Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances"

These are just a few example, and there are many, many more where the Bible defines death as having become separated from who, what, where you once were to who/what/where you are now, having passed from death to life.

Jesus died on the cross and yet only His body lied in the tomb. Jesus was still active before He raised His body (temple).

"For Christ also suffered for sins once for all time, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which He also went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison"

The apostle Paul also defined death as being separated from the body and yet alive with God.

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

I could go on and on and on, but I'm a bit apathetic about providing for you what is so obvious throughout the entirety of the Bible.

 

[Hilltrot]

Please clarify.

Please clarify what you need clarified.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Yes, it was a straw man. No one here is "trying to weasel out of Jesus' humanity and death in order to prove that Jesus is the one true God."



Obfuscation.

@Hilltrot Please define "died."

If that means simply copying and pasting the definition provided by a dictionary, then so be it. If it means providing a definition of your own choosing, so be it. If it means providing a definition taken from the Bible, so be it.

So far, you have yet to provide the definition you use for "died." Please tell us so that we can stop talking past each other.

One has an explanation of death in John 11. Another is in Luke 20:34-38.

Please clarify.

Please clarify what you need clarified.

Don't be dumb, Hill. What is the definition?

Please quote the verses you think provide the definition, don't just toss out references and hope that covers it, because it doesn't.

 

[Hilltrot]

Please quote the verses you think provide the definition

I did quote the verses. Do you need more verses?

 

[JudgeRightly]

I did quote the verses. Do you need more verses?

Referencing verses is not quoting them.

Please quote the verses you think provide the definition of the word "dies."

In other words: please state plainly, for everyone in this thread, the definition of the asked for word.

 

[Caino]

Jesus chose “Son of man” as depicted by the Book of Enoch wherein a heavenly prince leaves his glory to come down to earth.

Jesus, the Son of God incarnate, didn’t choose the label “Messiah” because that concept among the Jews had become so distorted that he could never live up to it, however it was the basis of their expectations of a deliverer. So he allowed his disciples to draw their own conclusions.

 

[Hilltrot]

Referencing verses is not quoting them.

You're nitpicking.

Please quote the verses you think provide the definition of the word "dies."

Luke 20:34-38 NLT
Jesus replied, “Marriage is for people here on earth. [35] But in the age to come, those worthy of being raised from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage. [36] And they will never die again. In this respect they will be like angels. They are children of God and children of the resurrection.

[37] “But now, as to whether the dead will be raised—even Moses proved this when he wrote about the burning bush. Long after Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had died, he referred to the Lord as ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ [38] So he is the God of the living, not the dead, for they are all alive to him.”

I think this passage gives the most appropriate out for trinitarians. In my late trinitarian days, this passage would definitely be used in a defense of the trinity. So one can say death even for humans does not end existence. But then you completely missed the point.

So, I'll define dying as clapping your hands forty times while whistling dixie and dancing the lead part to the Black Swan.

It doesn't matter. God can't die. Jesus did die. No matter how you define it Jesus did it and God didn't.

That's why I quoted the hymn from Charles Wesley. You might have heard his song, "Hark, the herald angels sing!" So, yes, if Charles Wesley wrote and had the song "'Tis mystery all! The immortal dies!" approved, it was most likely a mystery no one wanted to explain or even ask about. That's not me saying it as you try to point out, it is being said by a large number of people of that time.

 

[Hilltrot]

Jesus chose “Son of man” as depicted by the Book of Enoch wherein a heavenly prince leaves his glory to come down to earth.

Jesus, the Son of God incarnate, didn’t choose the label “Messiah” because that concept among the Jews had become so distorted that he could never live up to it, however it was the basis of their expectations of a deliverer. So he allowed his disciples to draw their own conclusions.

The book of Enoch is modeled on Daniel. And although I don't want to speak to much ill of the book of Enoch - Jude - I do want to point out that the Book of Enoch says the Son of Man is Enoch.

But that does bring about an interesting point. I believe Jesus used the title Son of Man because that was the actual topic of the day. When Jesus asks "Who do people say is the Son of Man?", he isn't asking what people are saying about him, he is asking who people think the Son of Man is. The people don't identify Jesus as the Son of Man. This is what makes Peter's declaration so important.

It then brings new perspective to many of the passages when Jesus refers to the Son of Man, the people believe he is referring to someone else. That of course leads me to believe that my interpretation of who said John 3:13-15 might be wrong. Something to think about.

Jesus continually avoids the direct question but makes it abundantly clear at the end - Matthew 26:64.

 

[Derf]

I had assumed that you were familiar with the Bible, so I gave you an overview of the things I shared. My mistake. However, I'm not going to post every verse that corresponds to what I'm about to say. You can either review the Bible on your own, or ask someone to show you know who cares about your blatant ignorance.

The Bible does explicitly tell us that Adam died the day he ate from the tree, yet Adam still lived.
We also know, or should know, if we've read the Bible, that because of his death from his disobedience, death spread to all men, for the wages of sin is death. So, what died when Adam sinned, since he still lived and all those after him still lived, even though the Bible says they are already dead.

"And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins"

Whether you agree or not, or whether you are satisfied with my answers or not, the Bible is clear that ALL men are dead because of the sin of one man, and because all men are dead all men are sinners.

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned"

So, what does it mean when the Bible says that Adam died, if he was still living? And what does it mean if all men are dead, even though they are living. Well, we know that it is the Spirit that gives life (Jn 6:6; 2 Cor 3:6), and anyone who is dead because of sin, receives His life when they are indwelt by His Spirit, having believed the gospel.

"Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit." 1 Jn 4:13

We were once in Adam (dead), but are now in Christ (alive)

"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive." 1 Cor 15:22

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." 1 John 5:11-12

So, we know that men are dead before they receive life. Men are separate from life, because they are dead. The Bible defines death as being separate from having life. The Bible also describes all those who receive the life of God as having died, and yet they live.

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me" Gal 2:20

"For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God" Colossians 3:3

"Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him"

Having been crucified with Christ and having died with Christ, is to be separated from who we were in Adam, and also to be separated from sin, and the Law.

"But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter."

"How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"

"Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances"

These are just a few example, and there are many, many more where the Bible defines death as having become separated from who, what, where you once were to who/what/where you are now, having passed from death to life.

Jesus died on the cross and yet only His body lied in the tomb. Jesus was still active before He raised His body (temple).

"For Christ also suffered for sins once for all time, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which He also went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison"

The apostle Paul also defined death as being separated from the body and yet alive with God.

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

I could go on and on and on, but I'm a bit apathetic about providing for you what is so obvious throughout the entirety of the Bible.

I don't want to insult such a well-written post with a simple answer, but can you explain this verse for me, at least the "body is dead" part?
[Rom 8:10 KJV] 10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

 

[OZOS]

God can't die.

God, in a body of flesh, can die and did die. Again, you don't understand what death is.

I have proven to you, from God's word that death is separation.
The body and the spirit are not the same.
The body can and does die, and yet the spirit still be alive.
The spirit can either be one spirit with God (alive) or not one one spirit with God (dead).
When God died on the cross, it was the body that died, thus God tasted death for every man.
At no time did the Spirit of God die, but He did experience the death of the body, just as those of us who have flesh and blood will also experience.
The thief died on the cross, yet was with Jesus in paradise that same day. Not his body, but his spirit.
The body and the spirit were separated. This is death.

 

[Right Divider]

The book of Enoch is modeled on Daniel.

Enoch was taken from the earth a couple of thousand years before Daniel.

And although I don't want to speak to much ill of the book of Enoch - Jude - I do want to point out that the Book of Enoch says the Son of Man is Enoch.

The book of Enoch is not in the Bible, so who cares? God also called Ezekiel "Son of Man". That does not mean that Ezekiel is THE Son of Man.

Do you ever wonder why Paul, who wrote 13 epistles and who used the term "Lord Jesus" 85 times, never once called Jesus the Son of Man? (Note that the term "Lord Jesus" appears only ONCE in Luke and not at all in Matthew, Mark and John).

 

[OZOS]

I don't want to insult such a well-written post with a simple answer, but can you explain this verse for me, at least the "body is dead" part?
[Rom 8:10 KJV] 10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

Paul says that all those who are in Christ are made alive in the spirit. We have been circumcised from the flesh, which is a picture of the death we died to the flesh. We are no longer in the flesh, but in the spirit. The body is dead (separate) from the spirit, and still has indwelling sin, but the spirit is alive, and one with God, never to be dead (separated from God) again.

 

[Derf]

Paul says that all those who are in Christ are made alive in the spirit. We have been circumcised from the flesh, which is a picture of the death we died to the flesh. We are no longer in the flesh, but in the spirit. The body is dead (separate) from the spirit, and still has indwelling sin, but the spirit is alive, and one with God, never to be dead (separated from God) again.

So you're saying that our minds/wills, which are spirit-led, have no control over our bodies whatsoever?

When Paul said, "those who stole, steal no longer" he only meant "don't think about stealing, even as your body is robbing a bank"? That seems odd.