Well, you were known by your fellow Jews on that other site as being ever a bit over allegorizing
ECT Yet Future?
- Thread starter Danoh
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Well, you were known by your fellow Jews on that other site as being ever a bit over allegorizing
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
WOW!!!
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
I just can't, stand, myself.
1Mind is drinkin' Ripple again :chuckle:
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
Flowing water is drinkable.
Still waters are stagnant.
Still waters are stagnant.
Well, you were known by your fellow Jews on that other site as being ever a bit over allegorizing
It can be proven beyond doubt, from the scripture and the Testimony of Messiah, that what I say is true; but who is willing believe it? I have not learned my doctrine from men; and this should be clear from the following, for there is no scholar or commentary which I have seen that will admit the following to be true, though some have noted it, that is, because it proves that the covenant was renewed, (not totally brand spanking new out of nowhere), and this is shown by the fact that the Master quotes from Exodus 23:20a and applies it to Yohanan the Immerser. Yes, that's right, he calls Yohanan the Malak, Angel, or Messenger of Exodus 23:20a, as quoted by the Gospel authors from the LXX. Why therefore do no commentaries expound on this fact and rather pretend that the quote comes from Mal 3:1? It is no doubt because of the massive implications to mainstream Christian doctrine; for if indeed Yohanan is the Malak of Exodus 23:20a then it means the PRIMARY covenant was not even fully actualized and implemented until the time of Yohanan the Immerser, (and this is actually merciful and gracious to the rulers of the Yhudim who by that time had woefully misunderstood the Torah by reading it from the mindset of the natural and carnal man). In the same passage the Master says that all the prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yohanan, which statement adds even more weight to what he says in the passage when quoting Exo 23:20a.
Matthew 11:7-15
7. Moreover, as they went their way, Yeshua commenced saying to the multitudes concerning Yohanan: What did you go out into the wilderness to look at? A reed shaken with the wind?
8. But having gone out what did you see? A man clothed in malakos raiment? Behold, they that wear malakos raiment are in the houses of kings.
9. But having gone out what did you see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, even much surpassing a prophet:
10. He it is concerning whom it is written, "Behold, I send My Angel before thy face, who shall prepare thy way before thee."
11. Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there has not arisen a greater than Yohanan the Immerser: yet he that is but little in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he.
12. Moreover, from the days of Yohanan the Immerser until now, the kingdom of the heavens suffers violence and the violent seize it by force:
13. For all the Prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yohanan.
14. And if you are willing to receive it, he is Eliyahu, that is about to come.
15. He that has ears, let him hear!
In the passage above, from Matthew 11:10, we find the following Scripture quote and statement in which the Master, in quoting from the Scripture, emphatically states that the Scripture which he quotes concerns Yohanan the Immerser:
Matthew 11:10
10. He it is concerning whom it is written, "Behold, I send My Angel before thy face, who shall prepare thy way before thee."
Where is this statement written in the Scripture? It is only found in one place and that is not Malachi 3:1, as the scholars and their commentaries all appear to assume; the statement is rather a direct quote from the LXX-Septuagint version of Exodus 23:20a. The Scripture quote from Matthew 11:10b is copied straight from the Septuagint, verbatim, word for word from the Greek:
Matthew 11:10 W/H
10 ουτος εστιν περι ου γεγραπται ιδου εγω αποστελλω τον αγγελον μου προ προσωπου σου ος κατασκευασει την οδον σου εμπροσθεν σου
http://biblehub.com/text/matthew/11-10.htm
Exodus 23:20 OG LXX-Septuagint
20 και ιδου εγω αποστελλω τον αγγελον μου προ προσωπου σου ινα φυλαξη σε εν τη οδω οπως εισαγαγη σε εις την γην ην ητοιμασα σοι
http://bibledatabase.net/html/septuagint/02_023.htm
The statement from Malachi 3:1a-b is not even close:
Malachi 3:1 OG LXX-Septuagint
1 ιδου εγω εξαποστελλω τον αγγελον μου και επιβλεψεται οδον προ προσωπου μου και εξαιφνης ηξει εις τον ναον εαυτου κυριος ον υμεις ζητειτε και ο αγγελος της διαθηκης ον υμεις θελετε ιδου ερχεται λεγει κυριος παντοκρατωρ
http://bibledatabase.net/html/septuagint/39_003.htm
Without και ("and") Exodus 23:20a is identical to Matthew 11:10b:
Exodus 23:20a LXX-Septuagint
ιδου εγω αποστελλω τον αγγελον μου προ προσωπου σου
Matthew 11:10b
ιδου εγω αποστελλω τον αγγελον μου προ προσωπου σου
The statement from Malachi 3:1a-b is not the same:
Malachi 3:1a-b LXX-Septuagint
ιδου εγω εξαποστελλω τον αγγελον μου και επιβλεψεται οδον προ προσωπου μου
Here it is in KJV English:
Matthew 11:10 KJV
10. For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Exodus 23:20 LXX-Septuagint (Brenton Translation)
20 And, behold, I send my angel before thy face, that he may keep thee in the way, that he may bring thee into the land which I have prepared for thee.
http://biblehub.com/sep/exodus/23.htm
Malachi 3:1 KJV
1. Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.
Malachi 3:1 LXX-Septuagint (Brenton Translation)
1. Behold, I send forth my messenger, and he shall survey the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come into his temple, even the angel of the covenant, whom ye take pleasure in: behold, he is coming, saith the Lord Almighty.
http://biblehub.com/sep/malachi/3.htm
Matthew 11:10b duplicates Exodus 23:20a word for word as if it was lifted straight from the Septuagint. And "THEE-THINE-YOU-YOUR" [σου] and "ME-MY-MINE" [μου] are not the same in any language. The Master therefore emphatically states from the Torah that Yohanan the Immerser is not only Eliyahu-Elijah but likewise the Malak-Angel-Messenger of Exodus 23:20-23. Likewise Matthew is not the only place where we find this quote from Exodus but again it appears in both Mark 1:2 and Luke 7:27. Mark reveals even more detail as the author places this quote from Exodus 23:20 together with the quote from Isaiah 40:3. This reveals that when Yeshayah-Isaiah speaks of "the voice of a Cryer in the wilderness" the Prophet is speaking of the Malak of Exodus 23:20 and, therefore, the same is Yohanan the Immerser according to the doctrine of the Master:
Mark 1:2-3 ASV
2. Even as it is written in Isaiah the prophet, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, Who shall prepare thy way; [Exo 23:20]
3. The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make ye ready the way of the Lord, Make his paths straight; [Isa 40:3]
If these things be true, and they are, then how can these things be properly understood? Can it be that Yohanan pre-existed his physical incarnation? Obviously not according to fundamental mainstream Christian doctrine, (and neither in my doctrine). What it means then is that one must be fully willing to believe all that the Master teaches and this includes another emphatic statement from the same Matthew passage quoted at the top where he says that all the Prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yohanan:
Matthew 11:13
13. For all the Prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yohanan.
Unless you can prove these things wrong then what does the above all mean to your doctrine? How can the Torah be "nailed to the cross", or "done away with", or "rendered entirely ineffective", when the Torah did not even fully commence and become fully implemented and operational until Messiah had first come to expound it all? Perhaps this is why Paul says the Law is spiritual in Rom 7:14? And how can anyone ignore the fact that Messiah PAID for that Testimony with his own blood at Golgotha? If he received that holy Testimony from on High, (which is what the Master himself and the Gospel of John both teach), then it was not even his own Testimony which he paid for with his life and blood; so that we might know the Way, by way of that New Testimony-Spirit, (that Testimony is Spirit just as he says, that is, the new covenant Spirit, the new Spirit of Ezekiel 11:19, 18:31, 36:26).
Dispensationalism is a giant gaping horrendous trap with jaws of steel.
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1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
And the world will live as one.
Hope.
Hope.
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
Been here......
My horse's name is Horse, lol.
My horse's name is Horse, lol.
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
Dispensationalism is a giant gaping horrendous trap with jaws of steel.
As are all isms. :yoshi:
From the Testimony of the Master then this speaks of the forerunner of the covenant:
Exodus 23:20-23
20 Behold, I send My Angel before thy face, that he may keep thee in the way, that he may bring thee into the land which I have prepared for thee.
21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for My name is in him [EliYahu].
22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
23 For My Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorite, and Chettite, and Pherezite, and Chananite, and Gergesite, and Evite, and Jebusite, and I will destroy them. [seven heathen-nations, seven mountains, seven heads, and seven kings, Deut 7:1, Acts 13:19, 40-41, Hab 1:5-10, Rom 11:25, Luk 21:24, Luk 11:24-25, 26, Rev 17:9-10]
When He says "for My name is in him" He therefore means Eliyahu, (which is El+Yah).
H452 אֵלִיָה 'Eliyah (ay-lee-yaw') n/p.
אֵלִיָהוּ 'Eliyahuw (ay-lee-yaw'-hoo) [prolonged]
2. Elijah, the name of the famous prophet and of two other Israelites.
Root(s): H410, (El) H3050 (Yah)
KJV: Elijah, Eliah.
It is the duty of the Levitical Kohen, (Priest), to bless the bread and water for the people.
That is Yohanan EliYahu, son of Zekariah the Kohen, course of AbiYah:
Exodus 23:23-25
23 For My Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorite, and Chettite, and Pherezite, and Chananite, and Gergesite, and Evite, and Jebusite, and I will destroy them.
24 Thou shalt not bow down to their elohim, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images.
25 And ye shall serve YHWH your Elohim, and he shall bless thy bread and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee.
The Melki-Tzedek Priest, (haKohen HaGadol), blesses your bread and your wine.
Exodus 23:20-23
20 Behold, I send My Angel before thy face, that he may keep thee in the way, that he may bring thee into the land which I have prepared for thee.
21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for My name is in him [EliYahu].
22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
23 For My Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorite, and Chettite, and Pherezite, and Chananite, and Gergesite, and Evite, and Jebusite, and I will destroy them. [seven heathen-nations, seven mountains, seven heads, and seven kings, Deut 7:1, Acts 13:19, 40-41, Hab 1:5-10, Rom 11:25, Luk 21:24, Luk 11:24-25, 26, Rev 17:9-10]
When He says "for My name is in him" He therefore means Eliyahu, (which is El+Yah).
H452 אֵלִיָה 'Eliyah (ay-lee-yaw') n/p.
אֵלִיָהוּ 'Eliyahuw (ay-lee-yaw'-hoo) [prolonged]
2. Elijah, the name of the famous prophet and of two other Israelites.
Root(s): H410, (El) H3050 (Yah)
KJV: Elijah, Eliah.
It is the duty of the Levitical Kohen, (Priest), to bless the bread and water for the people.
That is Yohanan EliYahu, son of Zekariah the Kohen, course of AbiYah:
Exodus 23:23-25
23 For My Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorite, and Chettite, and Pherezite, and Chananite, and Gergesite, and Evite, and Jebusite, and I will destroy them.
24 Thou shalt not bow down to their elohim, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images.
25 And ye shall serve YHWH your Elohim, and he shall bless thy bread and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee.
The Melki-Tzedek Priest, (haKohen HaGadol), blesses your bread and your wine.
Israel is "the Great Congregation" of the elect of God. In a time of apostasy a large congregation - the multitude - is likely to be following some false doctrine taught by false prophets, and Peter in II Peter 2: 1 says false prophets shall bring in damnable heresies.
Congregation, from ekklesia in Tyndale's New Testament, is a common noun. Israel is something unique and is a proper noun. So, the "great congregation," which is all the elect, is Israel, though not Old Covenant Israel somehow brought back into existence. Paul's Israel of God in Galatians 6: 16 can be used, which means born again Israel or Israel remade in Jesus Christ. I Peter 2: 5 refers to this Israel as "ye" who are built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood..."
Remember than Romans was written to the congregations in Rome at a time when the Jews had returned to find non-Jewish Christians in most of the home congregations and apparently there were conflicts between the two groups. In Romans Paul is teaching that there is to be no division, no separation, no difference of Gospel between the Jewish Christians and non-Jewish Christians. He says this in a very explicit way in Romans 10: 12. In Romans 2: 28-29 he focuses on a big part of the perceived separation between Jewish and non-Jewish Christians. "...but he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." Probably it is hard for those taught separation theology to understand Romans 2: 29, just as it is hard for them to understand that in Galatians 3 Paul is saying there is no more chosen people identity by the flesh, by the physical bloodline.
In Romans 9: 6-8 he says they who are the children of the flesh. these are not the children of God. By children of the flesh he means those who claim to be of the physical bloodline, but not of faith, the multitude then of Old Covenant Israel. Those of separation theology who have been taught to be surrogates of the multitude in Old Covenant Israel do not understand that in Romans 9: 8 Paul is saying that those of Old Covenant Israel who are of the physical bloodline from Abraham but reject Christ are not the children of God. To understand Romans 11: 25-26 you have to interpret this by Romans 2: 28-29 and by Romans 9: 6-8.
William Tyndale was more like a member of a very, very small remnant, while John Calvin was a partial reformer, and his successor Theodore Beza was even less a member of a remnant, but he was a follower of the Church as in I Peter 5: 3 - whose clergy class act as "lords over God's heritage," and not "being exsamples to the flock." Beza "corrected" a few key translations of William Tyndale, such as ekklesia and kateko in II Thessalonians 2: 7. In both cases Tyndale changed the Catholic translation, but Beza went back to that Catholic translation, and used church instead of Tyndale's congregation and changed Tyndale's translation of kateko in II Thessalonians, and so in the King James a restrainer is said to hold back the man of sin. Tyndale's version said "For the mystery of that iniquity does he already work, which only locks until it be taken out of the way," which teaches a different doctrine than the original Catholic translation.
Congregation, from ekklesia in Tyndale's New Testament, is a common noun. Israel is something unique and is a proper noun. So, the "great congregation," which is all the elect, is Israel, though not Old Covenant Israel somehow brought back into existence. Paul's Israel of God in Galatians 6: 16 can be used, which means born again Israel or Israel remade in Jesus Christ. I Peter 2: 5 refers to this Israel as "ye" who are built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood..."
Remember than Romans was written to the congregations in Rome at a time when the Jews had returned to find non-Jewish Christians in most of the home congregations and apparently there were conflicts between the two groups. In Romans Paul is teaching that there is to be no division, no separation, no difference of Gospel between the Jewish Christians and non-Jewish Christians. He says this in a very explicit way in Romans 10: 12. In Romans 2: 28-29 he focuses on a big part of the perceived separation between Jewish and non-Jewish Christians. "...but he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." Probably it is hard for those taught separation theology to understand Romans 2: 29, just as it is hard for them to understand that in Galatians 3 Paul is saying there is no more chosen people identity by the flesh, by the physical bloodline.
In Romans 9: 6-8 he says they who are the children of the flesh. these are not the children of God. By children of the flesh he means those who claim to be of the physical bloodline, but not of faith, the multitude then of Old Covenant Israel. Those of separation theology who have been taught to be surrogates of the multitude in Old Covenant Israel do not understand that in Romans 9: 8 Paul is saying that those of Old Covenant Israel who are of the physical bloodline from Abraham but reject Christ are not the children of God. To understand Romans 11: 25-26 you have to interpret this by Romans 2: 28-29 and by Romans 9: 6-8.
William Tyndale was more like a member of a very, very small remnant, while John Calvin was a partial reformer, and his successor Theodore Beza was even less a member of a remnant, but he was a follower of the Church as in I Peter 5: 3 - whose clergy class act as "lords over God's heritage," and not "being exsamples to the flock." Beza "corrected" a few key translations of William Tyndale, such as ekklesia and kateko in II Thessalonians 2: 7. In both cases Tyndale changed the Catholic translation, but Beza went back to that Catholic translation, and used church instead of Tyndale's congregation and changed Tyndale's translation of kateko in II Thessalonians, and so in the King James a restrainer is said to hold back the man of sin. Tyndale's version said "For the mystery of that iniquity does he already work, which only locks until it be taken out of the way," which teaches a different doctrine than the original Catholic translation.
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Why does everyone just ignore what is ACTUALLY being said in this prophecy concerning the New Covenant promised to the house of Israel and the house of Judah?:
Here we can see that the "fathers" of those who will make up the house of Israel and the house of Judah are the physical descendants of Israel because it was them who broke the covenant. And since the fathers are the physical descendants of Israel then that means that those who will make up both houses will also be the physical descendants of Israel.
And all of those physical descendants, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, will know the LORD and they will have their sins forgiven. Anyone in their right mind knows that there has never been a time in the past that this prophecy was fulfilled.
Is there anyone who will actually address what is being said in these verses?
"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).
Here we can see that the "fathers" of those who will make up the house of Israel and the house of Judah are the physical descendants of Israel because it was them who broke the covenant. And since the fathers are the physical descendants of Israel then that means that those who will make up both houses will also be the physical descendants of Israel.
And all of those physical descendants, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, will know the LORD and they will have their sins forgiven. Anyone in their right mind knows that there has never been a time in the past that this prophecy was fulfilled.
Is there anyone who will actually address what is being said in these verses?
turbosixx
New member
I will.
When an OT prophecy is stated in the NT, the quote is used to confirm what is taking place. For instance, in Acts 2 Peter says "16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:" then quotes Joel.
Same in Hebrews 8. That Jeremiah passage is quoted to show it's fulfillment. The writer says Christ is the mediator of a better covenant enacted on better promises. Then he says the reason for the second was the first had a fault. Then he quotes Jeremiah.
He then talks about Jesus' sacrifice that forgives sins once and for all.
Heb. 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. 15 And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,
16
“This is the covenant that I will make with them
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws upon their heart,
And on their mind I will write them,”
He then says,
17
“And their sins and their lawless deeds
I will remember no more.”
18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.
There is now a new and living way to approach God. Heb. 10:19-20
When was the forgiveness of sins first proclaimed? On Pentecost after his D,B&R.
Luke 24:46 and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
How were those on Pentecost saved? The old covenant, new or something else?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You didn't. You just completely ignored what the prophecy of Jeremiah 31:31-34 reveals. Instead, you ran off to something else. You answered nothing which I said about those of both houses being the physical descendants of Israel.
turbosixx
New member
I thought about it after I posted, sorry.
Acts 2:22 “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene,
2:47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.
How were these men of Israel saved? The old covenant? The new covenant? or something new?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Why can you not deal what is actually written at Jeremiah 31:31-34? It seems to me that all you are trying to do is to prove that what is said in that passage is not correct.
Right Divider
Body part
Ridiculous. This is because a grammar scholar thinks that every reference to "new testament" is exactly the same as "new covenant". That is just plain wrong.
Right Divider
Body part
:french: