With Russian & Iranian forces now engaged in combat in Syria, people are asking,...

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aikido7

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serpentdove said:
[With Russian & Iranian forces now engaged in combat in Syria, people are asking, “What is the War of Gog & Magog?” Here’s the answer, Part One. By Joel Rosenberg Istanbul, Turkey] "With Russian and Iranian military forces now cooperating together and engaging in combat in Syria, just miles north of the border of Israel, people are asking me a lot of questions. Among them:

•Is there any significance to these developments in light of Bible prophecy?

•Do these events have anything to do with the prophecies found in Ezekiel 38 & 39?

•Are recent events setting the stage for the fulfillment of what Bible scholars call the “War of Gog & Magog” that is supposed to take place in the End of Days?

Last Friday night, I addressed the topic of Apocalyptic Islam at a conference in Toronto, looking at how Shia and Sunni extremists see the prophetic trend lines in the Middle East. On Saturday evening, I then taught through Ezekiel 38 & 39, addressing these specific questions in light of Jewish and Christian eschatology. From there, I flew to Istanbul to meet with several Arab Christian leaders on a range of matters. But sure enough, these questions certainly came up.

The short answer is this:

•It is simply too early to draw any conclusions regarding the Biblical significance of Russian and Iranian combat forces operating in an alliance in the Syrian theater, so close to the northern mountains of Israel. More would have to happen to convince me beyond the shadow of a doubt that these are prophetic events. And I urge Christians to be cautious and not jump to conclusions. Time will make things more clear.

•That said, there is cause to believe these events could be preparatory for the commencement of the “War of Gog & Magog.” We can’t rule out the possibility that prophetic events have been set in motion.

•Put another way: the fulfillment of Ezekiel 38 & 39 could be decades off, or more. However, these recent events — and numerous other regional trends — do appear consistent with what would have to happen to set the stage for Ezekiel’s prophecies to come to pass, and the Church needs to consider the possibility that such prophecies could unfold sooner than many people expect.

•The central fact to remember first and foremost is this: The prophecies of Ezekiel 36 & 37 have already largely come true. That is, the geopolitical nation state of Israel has dramatically been reborn in our lifetime. Jewish people are returning to live and work in the Holy Land after centuries of exile. The Jews are rebuilding the ancient ruins and making the deserts bloom, just as the ancient prophets said they would. We are also seeing a growing number of Jewish people coming to faith in Jesus as Messiah, consistent with Ezekiel 37’s prophecy that as the nation of Israel would be physical reborn in the last days, so too God would breathe His Holy Spirit into the Jewish people and more and more of them would be spiritually reborn in the last days, as well.

•Therefore, given the fact that Ezekiel 36 & 37 have largely come true, we must ask ourselves: Isn’t it remotely possible that the prophecies of Ezekiel 38 & 39 could soon come to pass, as well?

What is the "War of Gog and Magog?" Part One

For the next several days, I will lay out a point-by-point analysis of the prophecies found in Ezekiel 38 & 39. It’s too much to explain all at once. So we’ll take it piece by piece.

Today, let’s start by defining “Gog” and “Magog,” when Bible indicates this prophecy will take place, and what countries will be participating in the coalition against Israel:

1.The Hebrew Prophet Ezekiel lived in Babylon (Iraq) more than 2,500 years ago and the Lord gave him a vision of events that would take place in the future.

2.Ezekiel 38:16 specifically tells us these events will take place in the “last days” — that is in the End Times before the Messiah comes to set up His kingdom on earth.

3.Ezekiel chapters 36 and 37 set the stage for the “War of Gog and Magog” by describing that Israel will be reborn as a country in the last days, the Jewish people will come back to the Holy Land from exile all over the world, the Jewish people will rebuild the ancient ruins and make the deserts bloom again. These things have all happened, and this suggests we are getting closer to the fulfillment of the next set of prophecies.

4.Ezekiel 38:2 tells us that the war will be led by someone known as “Gog.” This is not a personal name. We’re not looking for someone named David Gog. Or Ahmed Gog. Or Dmitri Gog. Rather, “Gog” is a title, like a “Pharoah” or a “Czar.” Through the prophecy, this Gog is described as a military leader, a political leader, and a coalition builder. In Ezekiel 38:10 he is described as developing an “evil plan,” we know this is an evil man, a tyrant.

5.The Hebrew prophet gives us more clues. This “Gog” is going to be from the “land of Magog.” One has to do some historical detective work to determine what Magog is, but it is possible. Flavius Josephus, the first century Roman historian, wrote in his famous book, The Antiquities of the Jews, that the people of Magog are the people whom the Greeks called “Scythians.” This is a critical clue because we know from history that the Scythians were a people group that migrated from the Middle East northward and settled north of the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea in the region we know today as Russia and the former Soviet Republics.

6.There are other interesting clues, as well. Ezekiel 38:15 says that Gog “will come from your place out of the remote parts of the north.” Ezekiel 39:2 says Gog will come “from the remotest parts of the north” and come “against the mountains of Israel.” The country that is farthest to the north in relation to Israel is Russia.

7.Thus, we can determine that a Russian dictator will build a diplomatic and military coalition to surround and attack the State of Israel in the End Times.

8.The question then is what other countries will be part of the coalition?

9.In Ezekiel 38:5, we learn that the first ally Russia will have is “Persia.” Until 1935, of course, Persia was the legal name of the country we know today as Iran. So we know that Russia and Iran will build an alliance in the last days to attack Israel.

10.Ezekiel tells us that another country in the alliance will be what many English Bible translate as “Ethiopia.” The Hebrew word, however, is “Cush” and Cush is the upper Nile region that we now know as Sudan. While the current state of Ethiopia may also be involved in the war, the focus is really Sudan, which today, of course, is a radical Islamic Sunni state closely allied with Iran and Russia and deeply anti-Semitic and anti-Israel.

11.Next, Ezekiel says a nation called “Put” will be part of the alliance. Josephus identifies “Put” as “ancient Lybios” — the territory that today we call Libya and Algeria. Interestingly, both countries today are deeply hostile to Israel and closely allied with Russia.

12.The next country mentioned is “Gomer.” When one does the historical detective work, one learns that Gomer is what we now call Turkey. For much of the past 80 years, it didn’t make sense that Turkey would turn against Israel. Why? Because Turkey was a NATO ally, and a friend of Israel, the U.S. and the European Union. But in the last few years, the Turkish government has swung dramatically away from the West, towards Russia and Iran, and become deeply hostile towards the State of Israel.

13.The next country Ezekiel mentions is “Beth Togarmah.” This is the Turkic-speaking peoples that spread out from Turkey across the Causasus, and across Central Asia. We can’t be certain precisely which modern nation states from this area will join the anti-Israel alliance, because these are almost all Muslim countries with close links to Russia and Iran.

14.Interestingly, Egypt is not mentioned by Ezekiel as part of the Russian-Iranian alliance against Israel. This is interesting because Egypt has been such an historic enemy of Israel and the Jewish people. That said, perhaps Egypt’s non-involvement in the War of Gog and Magog could be explained by the peace treaty Egypt signed with Israel in 1979. This treaty is now in danger of unraveling, but at least for the near term Egypt is still unlikely to be in a position to strategically threaten Israel.

15.Iraq — whether under its biblical names of Babel, Babylon, Babylonia, Shinar, or Mesopotamia — isn’t mentioned in the prophecy either, yet it, too, is an historic enemy of Israel. Still, given the liberation of Iraq in 2003, the subsequent violence, and the rebuilding now going on, Iraq is not likely to be a threat to Israel in the near term.

16.Syria and Lebanon are not mentioned by named in the prophecy either. However, Ezekiel tells us repeatedly that the main military force that will be coming against Israel will be coming from the north, which means they will be coming through Lebanon and Syria...." With Russian & Iranian forces now engaged in combat in Syria, people are asking, “What is the War of Gog & Magog?” Here’s the answer, Part One.
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Didn't you ever read Hal Lindsay's "The Late, Great Planet Earth."

It was talked about in nearly all Christian churches.
 
serpentdove

serpentdove

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aikido7 said:
Didn't you ever read Hal Lindsay's "The Late, Great Planet Earth."
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No, haven't read it.

I suspect :CRASH: those Arabs (Ge 16:12, Jer 7:6, GWT) won't be too happy :sozo2: about talk of rebuilding the temple (2 Thess 2:3-4, Dan 9:27). :juggle:

As a reminder aikido is number 45 on Satan, Inc. (TOL Heretics list) in "The 'Jesus is not God' people (Non-trinitarians) category. :burnlib:
 
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Totton Linnet

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Iraq is poised to formally request Moscow for military assistance, you can be sure Libya will follow suit.

Then the political map will not just resemble Ezeke 38, it will be Ezeke 38....suddenly we will be in the endgame.
 
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aikido7

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intojoy said:
Believers need to be studying this. Here's something I thought about. If one thinks that Israel is symbolized by the "fig tree" then that person cannot understand the book of Isaiah because it is clear that Israel is not God's Fig Tree but Israel is the Vineyard of the Lord which He took out of Egypt and planted in Israel.
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Let the Clash of Interpretations begin!
 
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aikido7

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serpentdove said:
No, haven't read it.

I suspect :CRASH: those Arabs (Ge 16:12, Jer 7:6, GWT) won't be too happy :sozo2: about talk of rebuilding the temple (2 Thess 2:3-4, Dan 9:27). :juggle:
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Lindsey's book was also about the Book of Revelations. Since John of Patmos' apocalyptic book was written, there have been interpretations of interpretations of what it “really means."

It was written in the 80s by a Christian believer on the Isle of Patmos in the Aegean Sea. At the time, the Roman Emperor Nero (“666--the Beast”) was persecuting the Christians and burning their churches and communities. It was at this time that both Paul and Peter were slaughtered. Any many, many martyrs.

There are many other examples of apocalyptic writings in the Bible. The genre of apocalyptic was used when things on earth seemed to be the most dislocating and hopeless. Its writing style uses fantastic mythical images such as “the Lion will lie down beside the Lamb.”

These images have many applications to modern history so in that respect, the apocalyptic has a sort of “timeless” quality.
 
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whitestone

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Before the battle of Armageddon,them saying blessed is he that cometh in the name of the lord,the second coming ect. ect. there is (another) war,shaking,destruction ect.

The man of sin when he rises (duplicates) everything we believe about the coming of Jesus. So there is a war,shaking ect. prior to the rising of the man of sin in as much that most will think that the events are leading up to Armageddon.

In Matthew 24:6 KJV everything is plural (an "s" added to each event) so it takes place,then it takes place again x amount of time later. The Damascus prophecies are probably more pertinent to the events taking place in Syria today. So first one set of events,then 2nd coming ,then Gog rises again after the mill. (3 separate events).
 
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aikido7

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serpentdove said:
[With Russian & Iranian forces now engaged in combat in Syria, people are asking, “What is the War of Gog & Magog?” Here’s the answer, Part One. By Joel Rosenberg Istanbul, Turkey] "With Russian and Iranian military forces now cooperating together and engaging in combat in Syria, just miles north of the border of Israel, people are asking me a lot of questions. Among them:

•Is there any significance to these developments in light of Bible prophecy?

•Do these events have anything to do with the prophecies found in Ezekiel 38 & 39?

•Are recent events setting the stage for the fulfillment of what Bible scholars call the “War of Gog & Magog” that is supposed to take place in the End of Days?

Last Friday night, I addressed the topic of Apocalyptic Islam at a conference in Toronto, looking at how Shia and Sunni extremists see the prophetic trend lines in the Middle East. On Saturday evening, I then taught through Ezekiel 38 & 39, addressing these specific questions in light of Jewish and Christian eschatology. From there, I flew to Istanbul to meet with several Arab Christian leaders on a range of matters. But sure enough, these questions certainly came up.

The short answer is this:

•It is simply too early to draw any conclusions regarding the Biblical significance of Russian and Iranian combat forces operating in an alliance in the Syrian theater, so close to the northern mountains of Israel. More would have to happen to convince me beyond the shadow of a doubt that these are prophetic events. And I urge Christians to be cautious and not jump to conclusions. Time will make things more clear.

•That said, there is cause to believe these events could be preparatory for the commencement of the “War of Gog & Magog.” We can’t rule out the possibility that prophetic events have been set in motion.

•Put another way: the fulfillment of Ezekiel 38 & 39 could be decades off, or more. However, these recent events — and numerous other regional trends — do appear consistent with what would have to happen to set the stage for Ezekiel’s prophecies to come to pass, and the Church needs to consider the possibility that such prophecies could unfold sooner than many people expect.

•The central fact to remember first and foremost is this: The prophecies of Ezekiel 36 & 37 have already largely come true. That is, the geopolitical nation state of Israel has dramatically been reborn in our lifetime. Jewish people are returning to live and work in the Holy Land after centuries of exile. The Jews are rebuilding the ancient ruins and making the deserts bloom, just as the ancient prophets said they would. We are also seeing a growing number of Jewish people coming to faith in Jesus as Messiah, consistent with Ezekiel 37’s prophecy that as the nation of Israel would be physical reborn in the last days, so too God would breathe His Holy Spirit into the Jewish people and more and more of them would be spiritually reborn in the last days, as well.

•Therefore, given the fact that Ezekiel 36 & 37 have largely come true, we must ask ourselves: Isn’t it remotely possible that the prophecies of Ezekiel 38 & 39 could soon come to pass, as well?

What is the "War of Gog and Magog?" Part One

For the next several days, I will lay out a point-by-point analysis of the prophecies found in Ezekiel 38 & 39. It’s too much to explain all at once. So we’ll take it piece by piece.

Today, let’s start by defining “Gog” and “Magog,” when Bible indicates this prophecy will take place, and what countries will be participating in the coalition against Israel:

1.The Hebrew Prophet Ezekiel lived in Babylon (Iraq) more than 2,500 years ago and the Lord gave him a vision of events that would take place in the future.

2.Ezekiel 38:16 specifically tells us these events will take place in the “last days” — that is in the End Times before the Messiah comes to set up His kingdom on earth.

3.Ezekiel chapters 36 and 37 set the stage for the “War of Gog and Magog” by describing that Israel will be reborn as a country in the last days, the Jewish people will come back to the Holy Land from exile all over the world, the Jewish people will rebuild the ancient ruins and make the deserts bloom again. These things have all happened, and this suggests we are getting closer to the fulfillment of the next set of prophecies.

4.Ezekiel 38:2 tells us that the war will be led by someone known as “Gog.” This is not a personal name. We’re not looking for someone named David Gog. Or Ahmed Gog. Or Dmitri Gog. Rather, “Gog” is a title, like a “Pharoah” or a “Czar.” Through the prophecy, this Gog is described as a military leader, a political leader, and a coalition builder. In Ezekiel 38:10 he is described as developing an “evil plan,” we know this is an evil man, a tyrant.

5.The Hebrew prophet gives us more clues. This “Gog” is going to be from the “land of Magog.” One has to do some historical detective work to determine what Magog is, but it is possible. Flavius Josephus, the first century Roman historian, wrote in his famous book, The Antiquities of the Jews, that the people of Magog are the people whom the Greeks called “Scythians.” This is a critical clue because we know from history that the Scythians were a people group that migrated from the Middle East northward and settled north of the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea in the region we know today as Russia and the former Soviet Republics.

6.There are other interesting clues, as well. Ezekiel 38:15 says that Gog “will come from your place out of the remote parts of the north.” Ezekiel 39:2 says Gog will come “from the remotest parts of the north” and come “against the mountains of Israel.” The country that is farthest to the north in relation to Israel is Russia.

7.Thus, we can determine that a Russian dictator will build a diplomatic and military coalition to surround and attack the State of Israel in the End Times.

8.The question then is what other countries will be part of the coalition?

9.In Ezekiel 38:5, we learn that the first ally Russia will have is “Persia.” Until 1935, of course, Persia was the legal name of the country we know today as Iran. So we know that Russia and Iran will build an alliance in the last days to attack Israel.

10.Ezekiel tells us that another country in the alliance will be what many English Bible translate as “Ethiopia.” The Hebrew word, however, is “Cush” and Cush is the upper Nile region that we now know as Sudan. While the current state of Ethiopia may also be involved in the war, the focus is really Sudan, which today, of course, is a radical Islamic Sunni state closely allied with Iran and Russia and deeply anti-Semitic and anti-Israel.

11.Next, Ezekiel says a nation called “Put” will be part of the alliance. Josephus identifies “Put” as “ancient Lybios” — the territory that today we call Libya and Algeria. Interestingly, both countries today are deeply hostile to Israel and closely allied with Russia.

12.The next country mentioned is “Gomer.” When one does the historical detective work, one learns that Gomer is what we now call Turkey. For much of the past 80 years, it didn’t make sense that Turkey would turn against Israel. Why? Because Turkey was a NATO ally, and a friend of Israel, the U.S. and the European Union. But in the last few years, the Turkish government has swung dramatically away from the West, towards Russia and Iran, and become deeply hostile towards the State of Israel.

13.The next country Ezekiel mentions is “Beth Togarmah.” This is the Turkic-speaking peoples that spread out from Turkey across the Causasus, and across Central Asia. We can’t be certain precisely which modern nation states from this area will join the anti-Israel alliance, because these are almost all Muslim countries with close links to Russia and Iran.

14.Interestingly, Egypt is not mentioned by Ezekiel as part of the Russian-Iranian alliance against Israel. This is interesting because Egypt has been such an historic enemy of Israel and the Jewish people. That said, perhaps Egypt’s non-involvement in the War of Gog and Magog could be explained by the peace treaty Egypt signed with Israel in 1979. This treaty is now in danger of unraveling, but at least for the near term Egypt is still unlikely to be in a position to strategically threaten Israel.

15.Iraq — whether under its biblical names of Babel, Babylon, Babylonia, Shinar, or Mesopotamia — isn’t mentioned in the prophecy either, yet it, too, is an historic enemy of Israel. Still, given the liberation of Iraq in 2003, the subsequent violence, and the rebuilding now going on, Iraq is not likely to be a threat to Israel in the near term.

16.Syria and Lebanon are not mentioned by named in the prophecy either. However, Ezekiel tells us repeatedly that the main military force that will be coming against Israel will be coming from the north, which means they will be coming through Lebanon and Syria...." With Russian & Iranian forces now engaged in combat in Syria, people are asking, “What is the War of Gog & Magog?” Here’s the answer, Part One.
Click to expand...
If Revelation is indeed a prophecy of the future and is not about the horrific persecution of Christians and faith communities in the world of its author, John of Patmos, then I have looked in vain for a metaphorical description of George W. Bush standing on a stepladder wielding a five iron to attack a wasps' nest.

That was the metaphor that occurred to me. Are there really metaphoric and mythic language embedded in Revelation that describes the immature and ignorant Bush’s actions that gave us ISIS?

It was the bombing in Afghanistan and the invasion of Iraq that caused the mayhem in the Middle East that the world is forced to deal with today.

History is full of conflict and turmoil in that part of the world. We live through our experiences of it just as John of Patmos lived through his experience.
 
brewmama

brewmama

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aikido7 said:
If Revelation is indeed a prophecy of the future and is not about the horrific persecution of Christians and faith communities in the world of its author, John of Patmos, then I have looked in vain for a metaphorical description of George W. Bush standing on a stepladder wielding a five iron to attack a wasps' nest.

That was the metaphor that occurred to me. Are there really metaphoric and mythic language embedded in Revelation that describes the immature and ignorant Bush’s actions that gave us ISIS?

It was the bombing in Afghanistan and the invasion of Iraq that caused the mayhem in the Middle East that the world is forced to deal with today.

History is full of conflict and turmoil in that part of the world. We live through our experiences of it just as John of Patmos lived through his experience.
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That's ridiculous. It seems you just have a personal grudge against Bush. ISIS started in Syria, not Iraq or Afghanistan, and the morons currently in Washington (both sides!) have made it worse. We had a cowed ally in Gaddafi that Hillary and Obama stupidly got rid of, along with encouraging the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and other radicals throughout the Middle East. Bush had absolutely nothing to do with it.

Do you honestly think that atrocities in the Islamic world is something new? Read some history.
 
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aikido7

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brewmama said:
That's ridiculous. It seems you just have a personal grudge against Bush. ISIS started in Syria, not Iraq or Afghanistan, and the morons currently in Washington (both sides!) have made it worse. We had a cowed ally in Gaddafi that Hillary and Obama stupidly got rid of, along with encouraging the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and other radicals throughout the Middle East. Bush had absolutely nothing to do with it.

Do you honestly think that atrocities in the Islamic world is something new? Read some history.
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No. I voted for him--the first time.
But he certainly “did not keep us safe.”

The month before September 11, he was on vacation in Waco and was handed his PDB (Presidential Daily Briefing) and it said (literally) “Bin Laden determined to attack U.S.”

Bush continued to “clear brush” and ride his bike. Those who superficially read the American media missed this. But it is true.

History tells us that Islam is still basically tribal. But history also demonstrates that it is an unwise choice to wade into the middle of political and social chaos of another country. Particularly if it is a theocracy and hundreds of different tribes and divisions.

Atrocities are nothing new where war is concerned. I saw plenty of pictures from my friends in Viet Nam wearing amputated fingers as a necklace around their necks. I have kept abreast of the American soldiers in the Middle East who have desecrated bodies, killed civilians, urinated on the dead, and caused women, children and the old to have half their face burned off.

This is what war does. This is why we have basic training and boot camp. We teach our young people to scapegoat, feel revenge and act violently. This is why so many are coming home with mental problems. We are not meant to kill others. Our natural instincts are to connect with the humanity in others.

Bush’s war-making was a stupid move. Many of us felt that way at the time but were (or course) condemned as “unpatriotic."

But we need to think before we act, and the George Bush administration did not. Bush did not even know there was a difference between Sunni and Shi’ite Muslims. He actually thought they were two different religions instead of two main divisions of Islam itself.

The guy was clueless. Anytime someone is playing the brave, tough cowboy is covering up a deep insecurity.

I’m glad you are finally copping to the idea that both sides made mistakes. If anything, we should start being accountable for our mistakes.
It used to be that Bush and the GOP could do no wrong. They’ve come a long way. Unfortunately there are still many GOP members who have not yet seen fit to confront their own contradictions. And I see the result of this in the fracturing Republican Party today.
 
serpentdove

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whitestone said:
Gog rises again after the mill...
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And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them [Rev. 20:7–9].


"And when the thousand years are ended Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall come forth to deceive the nations which are in the four corners (quarters) of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war; the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up over the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down out of heaven, and devoured them.


...Because the rebellion is labeled “Gog and Magog,” many Bible students identify it with the Gog and Magog of Ezekiel 38–39. This is not possible at all, for the conflicts described are not parallel as to time, place, or participants—only the names are the same. The invasion from the north by Gog and Magog in Ezekiel 38–39 breaks the false peace of the Antichrist and causes him to show his hand in the midst of the Great Tribulation. That rebellion of the godless forces from the north will have made such an impression on mankind that after one thousand years, that last rebellion of man bears the same label—Gog and Magog.

We have passed through a similar situation in this century. World War I was so devastating that when war again broke out in Europe, involving many of the same nations and even more, it was also labeled a World War, but it was differentiated by the number two. We have World War I, World War II, and people today are predicting World War III.

I can use a further illustration from my personal life. In my family there were so many Johns on both sides of the family that my mother decided I should be J. Vernon McGee. My “J” stands for John, but I have never been called John. An uncle, two grandfathers, and my dad were all named John. So you will understand why I bear the name of J. Vernon—I had to be separated from that crowd. Just because we had a similarity of names does not mean that we were all the same person.

The war in Ezekiel 38–39 relates to Gog and Magog I, and the reference here in Revelation 20:8 is to Gog and Magog II. Although the names are the same, this is a different war, the last rebellion of Satan. Just because the two events involve the same names does not mean they are the same.

In verse 9 there is the dropping of the last “atomic bomb.” The phrase, “from God,” is actually not in the best texts. It simply means that natural forces which destroyed Gog and Magog I will destroy Gog and Magog II.

This last resistance and rebellion against God was as foolish and futile as man’s first rebellion in the Garden of Eden. Here it is not the beginning but the ending of man’s disobedience to God. It is the finality of man’s rebellion. Nothing remains now but the final judgment." McGee, J. V. (1991). Thru the Bible commentary: The Prophecy (Revelation 14-22) (electronic ed., Vol. 60, pp. 152–153). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.
 
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