Why would God need a hell?

[SonOfCaleb]

Well one has to ask themselves, " Why" should God bother with being everywhere at the same time? I mean he can go anywhere he wants, but why should he concern himself with being everywhere? I mean, is God in your garbage can? Is he in your basement? Is he in the pot of food your cooking? Is he on Mars? Is he inside of the Sun? Is he in your dog house? Why should God be in places that do not interest him at the time?

God has focus , but he has perhaps trillions of faithful angels who are his servants ; they do as they are told, and go where they are sent. And stay where they are assigned.

God is not Omnipresent and as the Bible tells us in Isaiah 40:22 "There is One who dwells above the circle of the earth". Jehovah's dwelling place or where he lives is very clear there. Its in the heavens.

The following scriptures all indicate Jehovah resides in a specific location EG in the Heavens.

1Ki 8:49 "then hear from the heavens, your dwelling place, their prayer and their request for favor, and execute judgment for them"

Joh 16:28 "I came as the Father’s representative and have come into the world. Now I am leaving the world and am going to the Father".

Heb 9:24 "For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, so that he now appears before God on our behalf".

Indeed the prophet Isaiah again concludes that Jehovahs throne is in the heavens Isa 66:1 "This is what Jehovah says: “The heavens are my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Where, then, is the house that you could build for me, And where is my resting-place?"

 

[SonOfCaleb]

Can someone please explain to me how all paths could NOT lead to God if God is everywhere? I feel this thread has stopped helping us reach a resolution to the original question. And please don't try to skip this question because it's inconvenient. I honestly want to hear what people have to say.

All paths DO NOT lead to God and neither is God everywhere as Exodus 34:14 tells us "You must not bow down to another god, for Jehovah is known for requiring exclusive devotion. Yes, he is a God who requires exclusive devotion"

Recall also the words of the first two commandments given to Israel:-

Exodus 20:2-5 "I am Jehovah your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 3 You must not have any other gods besides me.
4 “You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters under the earth. 5You must not bow down to them nor be enticed to serve them, for I, Jehovah your God, am a God who requires exclusive devotion"

Therefore from the earliest days that Israel was established as nation, and in fact prior to that, it was known by worshipers of Jehovah that they were to give exclusive devotion to Jehovah only. For those that choose to disobey, that is Israelite's who worshiped false Gods willingly, the Mosaic Law prescribed capital punishment for their sins.

If you recall when Moses went to get the Law the petulant Israelite's erected a Golden Calf and started to worship it. Those that did paid the price with their lives as Exodus 32:26 says "Then Moses took his position in the gate of the camp and said: “Who is on Jehovah’s side? Come to me!” And all the Levites gathered around him. 27 He now said to them: “This is what Jehovah the God of Israel has said, ‘Each of you must fasten on his sword and pass through all the camp from gate to gate, killing his brother, his neighbor, and his close companion.’” 28 The Levites did what Moses said. So about 3,000 men were killed on that day".

There are numerous examples all over the OT where false worship was not tolerated. Therefore all paths cannot lead to God as clearly demonstrated in the OT as well as by Jesus own testimony in the NT. If you are not worshiping Jehovah then you can only be worshiping the god of this system which is Satan the Devil. It is Satan who established false worship. And it is Satan who has deceitfully led nations astray under the pretense that they are worshiping Jehovah God, when in fact the nations are doing obeisance to him, that is Satan, via their false gods.

The prophet Isaiah says Jehovah's throne is in the heavens Isa 66:1 "This is what Jehovah says: “The heavens are my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Where, then, is the house that you could build for me, And where is my resting-place?". Many prophets such as Daniel and Elijah were given visions of Jehovah's heavenly court. Those visions would clearly be erroneous if God dwelt everywhere which the Bible does not indicate anywhere. He has a location where he lives. Its in the heavens.

 

[Prizebeatz1]

All paths DO NOT lead to God and neither is God everywhere as Exodus 34:14 tells us "You must not bow down to another god, for Jehovah is known for requiring exclusive devotion. Yes, he is a God who requires exclusive devotion"

Recall also the words of the first two commandments given to Israel:-

Exodus 20:2-5 "I am Jehovah your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 3 You must not have any other gods besides me.
4 “You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters under the earth. 5You must not bow down to them nor be enticed to serve them, for I, Jehovah your God, am a God who requires exclusive devotion"

Therefore from the earliest days that Israel was established as nation, and in fact prior to that, it was known by worshipers of Jehovah that they were to give exclusive devotion to Jehovah only. For those that choose to disobey, that is Israelite's who worshiped false Gods willingly, the Mosaic Law prescribed capital punishment for their sins.

If you recall when Moses went to get the Law the petulant Israelite's erected a Golden Calf and started to worship it. Those that did paid the price with their lives as Exodus 32:26 says "Then Moses took his position in the gate of the camp and said: “Who is on Jehovah’s side? Come to me!” And all the Levites gathered around him. 27 He now said to them: “This is what Jehovah the God of Israel has said, ‘Each of you must fasten on his sword and pass through all the camp from gate to gate, killing his brother, his neighbor, and his close companion.’” 28 The Levites did what Moses said. So about 3,000 men were killed on that day".

There are numerous examples all over the OT where false worship was not tolerated. Therefore all paths cannot lead to God as clearly demonstrated in the OT as well as by Jesus own testimony in the NT. If you are not worshiping Jehovah then you can only be worshiping the god of this system which is Satan the Devil. It is Satan who established false worship. And it is Satan who has deceitfully led nations astray under the pretense that they are worshiping Jehovah God, when in fact the nations are doing obeisance to him, that is Satan, via their false gods.

The prophet Isaiah says Jehovah's throne is in the heavens Isa 66:1 "This is what Jehovah says: “The heavens are my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Where, then, is the house that you could build for me, And where is my resting-place?". Many prophets such as Daniel and Elijah were given visions of Jehovah's heavenly court. Those visions would clearly be erroneous if God dwelt everywhere which the Bible does not indicate anywhere. He has a location where he lives. Its in the heavens.

I don't know. I detect an unconscious desire of the personality to want to separate itself from what is infinite, eternal and omnipresent. That is its job. It is very very good at what it does and most people don't question it. I feel that placing limits, boundaries, terms and conditions, etc. on what is limitless, boundless and unconditional is creating a golden calf. I do respect your opinion however because I was of the same accord for a very long time. That changed after I had a spiritual awakening. It's a long story but thanks for sharing your post. I feel it's a very common understanding that actually has much truth to it. My experience raised that truth a 100 fold but I'm not trying to push it onto others. We all have our own experiences and I honor that. Peace.

 

[Mickiel]

Well we have other hints of God having a specific location, Ezk. 1:4, " I looked and behold a whirlwind came out of the north.", and this came from God. In Isaiah 14:13, this being is trying to ascend into heaven and be above God; he goes into the north. In Psalms 75:6 it says promotion does not come from the east, west or the south; which leaves the north. A specific location.

 

[Mickiel]

There is no need for hell, the believers who believe in it, need it to help their belief; interesting, they need the suffering of others to strengthen their faith. In Heb. 2:17, " Wherefore in ALL things it behoved him to be made like his brethren, that he might be a MERCIFUL and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people."

God is not making a hell for the sins of people , he is making restoration for them. This is good news for the unbelievers that believers are condemning.

 

[chrysostom]

they need the suffering of others to strengthen their faith.

how would you get rid of them?

 

[Mickiel]

how would you get rid of them?

Getting rid of unbelievers is a Christian mentality, I am not Christian, I am a bible student that does not like the attitude of Christianity. You don't get rid of people, you help them. You don't measure who needs help, you help everybody. And that is how God and Christ are, they are not like Christians, they are not trying to get rid of unbelievers. They are going to change their natures. In Phil. 3:21 Jesus has the power to subdue all humans to himself, THAT is what is going to be done to them.

God would NOT leave the future of unbelievers in Christian hands, because you Christians would put them in your hell. You would judge them harshly and get rid of them. And God knows that. You are not the generate of God.

 

[SonOfCaleb]

I don't know. I detect an unconscious desire of the personality to want to separate itself from what is infinite, eternal and omnipresent. That is its job. It is very very good at what it does and most people don't question it. It feel that placing limits, boundaries, terms and conditions, etc. on what is limitless, boundless and unconditional is creating a golden calf. I do respect your opinion however because I was of the same accord for a very long time. That changed after I had a spiritual awakening. It's a long story but thanks for sharing this. I feel it's a very common understanding that actually has much truth to it. My experience raised that truth a 100 fold but I'm not trying to push it onto others. We all have our own experiences and I honor that. Peace.

Omnipresence is a pagan belief that has its origins in Greek philosophy and Roman paganism. It was a never a concept that was taught by the Jews or by the early Christians.

The concept of placing a limit on God accords with flawed quantitative human reasoning. We only have to look at the book of Job from chapter 38 onward where Jehovah questioned Job and humbled Jobs flawed reasoning. Job 40:2 "Should a faultfinder contend with the Almighty? Let the one who wants to reprove God answer."

No man knows the limits or boundary's of God, assuming a limit was even plausible. Thus the fact God is not omnipresent does not indicate a flaw, but rather only highlights how flawed human reasoning is with the erroneous assumption that God must be everywhere at all times.

Jehovah has the ability to 'see' what he chooses as Genesis 18:21 said the following about Sodom before he destroyed the City "I will go down to see whether they are acting according to the outcry that has reached me. And if not, I can get to know it". That doesn't mean he literally went to see Sodom as Jehovah's ability to see clearly doesn't have the human limitation attached to it which requires a physical or literal presence. He can direct his creation, his angels, as he sees fit in accordance with his will to act as his eyes and ears or even survey a situation himself directly.
Therefore from that verse alone its obvious Jehovah resides in a place, EG the heavens. Equally as per the wisdom of Jehovah in Job there is no man who can place any limit, or assess any apparent limit on the most high. Not even Jesus Gods son is capable of that and as the first born of creation he has known Jehovah for millions upon millions of years, and still doesn't now all the wisdom of Jehovah.

 

[chrysostom]

Getting rid of unbelievers is a Christian mentality, I am not Christian, I am a bible student that does not like the attitude of Christianity. You don't get rid of people, you help them.

how can we protect ourselves from those who will harm us?

 

[SonOfCaleb]

Getting rid of unbelievers is a Christian mentality, I am not Christian, I am a bible student that does not like the attitude of Christianity. You don't get rid of people, you help them. You don't measure who needs help, you help everybody. And that is how God and Christ are, they are not like Christians, they are not trying to get rid of unbelievers. They are going to change their natures. In Phil. 3:21 Jesus has the power to subdue all humans to himself, THAT is what is going to be done to them.

God would NOT leave the future of unbelievers in Christian hands, because you Christians would put them in your hell. You would judge them harshly and get rid of them. And God knows that. You are not the generate of God.

Jesus said in Mar 2:17 "I came to call, not righteous people, but sinners." Thank God appointed Jesus as his judge and not men....

 

[Mickiel]

how can we protect ourselves from those who will harm us?

You just do your best for now in where your life was predestined to be lived ; we have police and human law, and we have God, those three things are sufficient for now. But even with that, we live in a time of violence, but that is the time God wanted you and me to live in. It was once appointed unto man to die, but it was also once appointed unto us to live in a time God wanted us to live in. God wanted you and me and everyone alive now, to live in a time that we had to worry about protecting ourselves , and its going to get worse. You just do what you have to do, but you do not have to condemn all unbelievers to some rigid hell. That is not the way of God.

 

[Prizebeatz1]

Omnipresence is a pagan belief that has its origins in Greek philosophy and Roman paganism. It was a never a concept that was taught by the Jews or by the early Christians.

The concept of placing a limit on God accords with flawed quantitative human reasoning. We only have to look at the book of Job from chapter 38 onward where Jehovah questioned Job and humbled Jobs flawed reasoning. Job 40:2 "Should a faultfinder contend with the Almighty? Let the one who wants to reprove God answer."

No man knows the limits or boundary's of God, assuming a limit was even plausible. Thus the fact God is not omnipresent does not indicate a flaw, but rather only highlights how flawed human reasoning is with the erroneous assumption that God must be everywhere at all times.

Jehovah has the ability to 'see' what he chooses as Genesis 18:21 said the following about Sodom before he destroyed the City "I will go down to see whether they are acting according to the outcry that has reached me. And if not, I can get to know it". That doesn't mean he literally went to see Sodom as Jehovah's ability to see clearly doesn't have the human limitation attached to it which requires a physical or literal presence. He can direct his creation, his angels, as he sees fit in accordance with his will to act as his eyes and ears or even survey a situation himself directly.
Therefore from that verse alone its obvious Jehovah resides in a place, EG the heavens. Equally as per the wisdom of Jehovah in Job there is no man who can place any limit, or assess any apparent limit on the most high. Not even Jesus Gods son is capable of that and as the first born of creation he has known Jehovah for millions upon millions of years, and still doesn't now all the wisdom of Jehovah.

I'm unsure of your stance. Some parts of what you wrote indicate God is not everywhere and some parts seem contrary. But notice how the personality will come up with many ways to justify separation. It projects it's sense of value and self-worth onto objects outside of itself. The meaning and value of the scriptures is actually within us. Believe me, I looked everywhere for it. There is an unconscious longing to connect with this feeling of infinite value. I didn't realize I AM the value and self-worth I'd been looking for my whole life, whether through religion, philosophy, career, money, sex, beer etc. It's really a glorious thing that I hope everyone can experience.

 

[Mickiel]

I'm unsure of your stance. Some parts of what you wrote indicate God is not everywhere and some parts seem contrary. But notice how the personality will come up with many ways to justify separation. It projects it's sense of value and self-worth onto objects outside of itself. The meaning and value of the scriptures is actually within us. Believe me, I looked everywhere for it. There is an unconscious longing to connect with this feeling of infinite value. I didn't realize I AM the value and self-worth I'd been looking for my whole life, whether through religion, philosophy, career, money, sex, beer etc. It's really a glorious thing that I hope everyone can experience.

God may not be separating himself from you now, but he has done it and will continue to do it to people. You may not like it, but that is how God is now; he will not be this way in the future, but its something that he does do, and no new age philosophy can change that. Here are 34 biblical verses on God " Hiding himself", or separating himself from humans;

http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/God-Hiding

 

[Prizebeatz1]

God may not be separating himself from you now, but he has done it and will continue to do it to people. You may not like it, but that is how God is now; he will not be this way in the future, but its something that he does do, and no new age philosophy can change that. Here are 34 biblical verses on God " Hiding himself", or separating himself from humans;

http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/God-Hiding

That was the misconception that was busted by my awakening. The separation never occurred. I only believed that it did and I'm sure the authors of the scriptures suffered from the same feeling. That feeling of empty worthlessness seems like evidence of the separation but I found it was the opposite for me. That emptiness I judged as bad is a part of me; a manifestation of what is infinite and eternal. I judged it as bad and avoided it and lived with unconscious self-rejection. It was painful because I couldn't figure out why I felt so bad. Instead of fully owning and feeling the emptiness/worthlessness I ran from it and hid myself behind my beliefs, scriptures, identity, etc. that is the personality as the adversary which convinces us of separation. The issue is that the personality has an unconscious feeling that something is missing and it tries to find it through relationships, cars, conquering land, anything and everything. That something missing is the connection to its eternal and infinite self-worth for which there is no replacement. It is found within.

 

[Mickiel]

That was the misconception that was busted by my awakening. The separation never occurred..

Well again that was " your" experience , and good for you; but your experience is not everyonelse's. If a biblical reader is trying to expound that there is no separation from God, they are totally ignoring the 34 verses I gave you. Now what is the separation? Well its real spiritual knowledge, its every day guidance, its lack of his Holy Spirit, every human does not have these things now. Now, what do we continually have from God? Well we have life , but when we die we are separated from that. We can have good health, but not all have that. We have consciousness, which is the continual image of God, and everyone has that, yet some are separated from consciousness.

 

[Mickiel]

Notice 2 Kings 19:19, " Oh Lord save us out of his hand, that ALL Kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art Lord God!" I like the way the bible keeps stressing " ALL" in so many places; its ALL over God's word! Its literally everywhere in the bible! This principle of All inclusive God.

And it is a serious error if all is not in your gospel that you expound.

 

[Mickiel]

Again Jesus in John 6:33, "For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven, and GIVES life to the World!"

Okay, their giving away life to everyone.

Verse 39, again Jesus speaking;" And this is the Fathers will which has sent me, that of ALL which he has given me, I should loose nothing, but raise them up again in the last day."

Okay Jesus cannot loose ANY of those God gave him.

In John 17:2 God gives him ALL flesh!

Okay so Jesus is being pressured here, he can't loose anyone!

In 1 John 4:14 again God has the bible reveal WHY he sent Jesus here, " And we have seen and do testify , that the Father sent the Son TO BE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD!"

Again ALL are the purpose for Christ coming to earth, to save us ALL! God is All encompassing, and the true gospel will reflect that. But the enemies of this mission to save the world, will preach a gospel that shows Jesus did not, cannot save the whole world.

 

[chrysostom]

Again ALL are the purpose for Christ coming to earth, to save us ALL! God is All encompassing, and the true gospel will reflect that. But the enemies of this mission to save the world, will preach a gospel that shows Jesus did not, cannot save the whole world.

all of us have been redeemed
so
we might be saved

 

[Mickiel]

all of us have been redeemed
so
we might be saved

I know and understand that it is in your nature and your religion to claim that many humans will not be saved; you were raised that way, indoctrinated that way, cloaked into limited salvation, so you search the scriptures for the damnation of men.

God did not send Jesus here that he " Might" save the world; salvation is not a happenstance event; its a world reality! Jesus is a world Savior because he has done just that. Jesus was manifested to take away sin, your religion has manifested to take many of those sins back and condemn people with them; so you think like that, which is WHY your mindset cannot see the salvation of all.

 

[chrysostom]

I know and understand that it is in your nature and your religion to claim that many humans will not be saved; you were raised that way, indoctrinated that way, cloaked into limited salvation, so you search the scriptures for the damnation of men.

God did not send Jesus here that he " Might" save the world; salvation is not a happenstance event; its a world reality! Jesus is a world Savior because he has done just that. Jesus was manifested to take away sin, your religion has manifested to take many of those sins back and condemn people with them; so you think like that, which is WHY your mindset cannot see the salvation of all.

you are suggesting that it doesn't matter what we do

do you see how dangerous that it?