ECT Why Was Paul Baptized With Water?

[Jerry Shugart]

When Jesus spoke to the Jews, He was speaking to those of the Circumcision....obedience to the Law was understood by everyone but you, Jerry. Just because obedience wasn't mentioned in one particular verse you have gotten hung up on, doesn't mean it isn't there (understood by those addressed and the one addressing them).

This is what the Lord Jesus said to the Jews who lived under the law:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

What the Lord said here is either true or it is false. I say that His words did indeed bring spiritual life to the Jews who believed and lived under the law.

You say that His words are false because according to you His words by themselves cannot bring spiritual life to the Jews who lived under the law because they could not be saved apart from works.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Just LOOK (for a change) at my SIGNATURE and you'll SEE this:

Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.​

Then when and to whom did Paul preach the following gospel?:

"Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh" (Ro.1:1-3).​

 

[glorydaz]

This is what the Lord Jesus said to the Jews who lived under the law:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

What the Lord said here is either true or it is false. I say that His words did indeed bring spiritual life to the Jews who believed and lived under the law.

You say that His words are false because according to you His words by themselves cannot bring spiritual life to the Jews who lived under the law because they could not be saved apart from works.

YELLOW - What a childish thing for you to say, Jerry.

RED - You don't know the meaning of the word AND?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

YELLOW - What a childish thing for you to say, Jerry.

RED - You don't know the meaning of the word AND?

A person who understands English knows that what the Lord Jesus said here to the Jews who lived under the law was either true or false:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

This is not a conditional statement because no conditions are named.

The only place the word "and" is found in that verse is in your imagination!

 

[glorydaz]

Then when and to whom did Paul preach the following gospel?:

"Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh" (Ro.1:1-3).​

Why don't you just ask if the Law and Prophets ever spoke of the Gospel of Grace without the works of the law?

Maybe you'd get a response, since you clearly have doubts on the subject of the two different Gospels.



The fact that you're the confused one here is becoming clearer with each passing day.
Just admit you're not sure, and would like some input.
How hard is that?

 

[Right Divider]

You say that His words are false because according to you His words by themselves cannot bring spiritual life to the Jews who lived under the law because they could not be saved apart from works.

Here are some of His words:

Mat 19:16-17 KJV And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? (17) And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.​

 

[glorydaz]

A person who understands English knows that what the Lord Jesus said here to the Jews who lived under the law was either true or false:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

This is not a conditional statement because no conditions are named.

The only place the word "and" is found in that verse is in your imagination!

You used the word AND, Jerry. Don't tell me you didn't. I even put it in red.

No one is saying our Lord's words are not true. It's your interpretation of what He's saying that is causing this problem. Which words is He referring to? His words about keeping the commandments? Which words do you claim give life, Jerry?


If I say you have to clean your room, does that exclude your having to enter your room first?

 

[glorydaz]

Here are some of His words:

Mat 19:16-17 KJV And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? (17) And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.​

There you go. :thumb:

Jerry isn't interested in those words, though, is he? He wants to put those who lived under the Law under Grace, but he can't quite pull that off, can he?

Galatians 5:1-3 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No one is saying our Lord's words are not true. It's your interpretation of what He's saying that is causing this problem. Which words is He referring to? His words about keeping the commandments? Which words do you claim give life, Jerry?

His words which He spoke to the Jews when He said He is the Christ:

"Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me" (Jn.10:24-25).​

The Lord Jesus said He is the Christ and He said that He is the Son of God (Jn.10:36). Those who believed Him were born of God and received spiritual life:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1-5).
​

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).​

Again, the following statement of the Lord Jesus spoken to those who lived under the law was an "unconditional" statement:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

What the Lord Jesus said there is either true or false. I have told you exactly what His words were which brought spiritual life and so I believe that what He said is true.

On the other hand, you say that His words by themselves were not sufficient to bring spiritual life to those who lived under the law because they couldn't be made alive spiritually apart from works.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Just LOOK (for a change) at my SIGNATURE and you'll SEE this:

Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.​

Then when and to whom did Paul preach the following gospel?:

"Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh" (Ro.1:1-3).​

 

[Fisherofmen]

Ananias told Saul (Paul)"why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord" (Acts 22:16).

What was the purpose of this baptism?

Was it not for the remission of sins?

Yes it was. Absolutely. He who believes AND is baptized is saved (Mark 16:16). Not just he who believes only. St. Peter said likewise...

[20] Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.[21] Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. (1 Pet. 3:20-21)

We must be born again not just of the Spirit, but also of water...

[5] Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. (John 3:5)

He who believes must also have a living faith accompanied by works. (James 2:17)

 

[Right Divider]

Yes it was. Absolutely. He who believes AND is baptized is saved (Mark 16:16). Not just he who believes only. St. Peter said likewise...

[20] Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.[21] Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. (1 Pet. 3:20-21)

We must be born again not just of the Spirit, but also of water...

[5] Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. (John 3:5)

He who believes must also have a living faith accompanied by works. (James 2:17)

Wrongly not dividing the word of truth leads to just exactly this kind of confusion.

Paul says that there is ONE baptism in the body of Christ and it's NOT water.

 

[Fisherofmen]

Wrongly not dividing the word of truth leads to just exactly this kind of confusion.

Paul says that there is ONE baptism in the body of Christ and it's NOT water.

Sure, if you want to twist the Scriptures to your own destruction. (2 Pet. 3:16), then baptism is not water. I would rather not do that. What parts of "washing away sins" and "of the like form" do you not understand?

Also, if baptism is not administered with water according to St. Paul, then please tell me what it is and where it's found in Scripture. I need a good laugh.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Sure, if you want to twist the Scriptures to your own destruction, then baptism is not water. I would rather not do that. What part of "of the like form" do you not understand?

How many baptisms are there in the Bible, Fish?

Just one? or are there multiple?

 

[Fisherofmen]

How many baptisms are there in the Bible, Fish?

Just one? or are there multiple?

There is one true baptism for the remission of sins, administered with water. Now provide your evidence false prophet.

 

[JudgeRightly]

There is one true baptism for the remission of sins, administered with water.

Sorry, that's not only incorrect, it's moving the goalposts. I asked how many baptisms there were in the Bible.

Now provide your evidence

You said: "There is one true baptism for the remission of sins, administered with water."

Are the following baptisms not "true baptism"s?

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. - Matthew 3:11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew3:11&version=NKJV

So where's the water in that verse?

That verse alone proves there is more than one baptism in the Bible, not just baptism with water (which, by the way, is only SYMBOLIC, and doesn't actually cleanse one's soul; it is SYMBOLIC of the Baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT, who is most definitely not water).

But God says "two or three witnesses establishes a matter," so here's a few more to establish the matter:

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, - 1 Corinthians 10:1-2 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians10:1-2&version=NKJV

John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance[ for the remission of sins. - Mark 1:4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark1:4&version=NKJV

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body— whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. - 1 Corinthians 12:13 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians12:13&version=NKJV

So please, tell me. Apart from the sea Moses crossed through in Exodus which baptism was not meant for remission of sins, where is the water in those verses?

false prophet.

Let's avoid bearing false witness and name calling without cause (the former being a sin, and the latter being against the rules of TOL).

 

[Right Divider]

Sure, if you want to twist the Scriptures to your own destruction. (2 Pet. 3:16), then baptism is not water. I would rather not do that. What parts of "washing away sins" and "of the like form" do you not understand?

Also, if baptism is not administered with water according to St. Paul, then please tell me what it is and where it's found in Scripture. I need a good laugh.

Neither you nor I are part of the group that Peter is in.... the nation of Israel (twelve apostles to sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of ISRAEL).

I'm in the body of Christ and you should join me (and Paul says that WE have ONE baptism.. hint: it's found here 1 Cor 12:13).

BTW, water baptism is in Israel's old covenant laws. That's why there is this:

Heb 6:2 KJV Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.​

Which, of course, was written to the HEBREWS.

Laugh all that you want as you remain blind and ignorant.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Neither you nor I are part of the group that Peter is in.... the nation of Israel (twelve apostles to sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of ISRAEL).

I'm in the body of Christ and you should join me (and Paul says that WE have ONE baptism.. hint: it's found here 1 Cor 12:13).

BTW, water baptism is in Israel's old covenant laws. That's why there is this:

Heb 6:2 KJV Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.​

Which, of course, was written to the HEBREWS.

Laugh all that you want as you remain blind and ignorant.

AHA! That's the verse I was looking for earlier! Thank you!

 

[Right Divider]

AHA! That's the verse I was looking for earlier! Thank you!

You're welcome.

 

[Fisherofmen]

Sorry, that's not only incorrect, it's moving the goalposts. I asked how many baptisms there were in the Bible.

Your question is irrelevant. The topic was whether or not baptism with water was salvific. I answered that question in the affirmative with multiple Scripture verses. You proceeded to reject those on the basis of something St. Paul supposedly taught.

You said: "There is one true baptism for the remission of sins, administered with water."

Are the following baptisms not "true baptism"s?

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. - Matthew 3:11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew3:11&version=NKJV

So where's the water in that verse?

Again, are you trying to back up your assertion that St. Paul taught that water baptism was not salvific. If so, you failed again. Jesus also mentioned, that he had a "baptism" to undergo. (Luke 12:50) The Israelites were "baptized" in the cloud and the sea. (1 Cor. 10:2). These types of "baptisms" are METAPHORS. There is only ONE LORD, ONE FAITH AND ONE BAPTISM. (Eph 4:5). That One Baptism is of water AND the Spirit. (John 3:5) Not one OR the other. BOTH are needed. Neither are symbolic. As Peter said, "Baptism now SAVES you" it is of the "like form" of the water that saved Noe and his family.

That verse alone proves there is more than one baptism in the Bible, not just baptism with water (which, by the way, is only SYMBOLIC, and doesn't actually cleanse one's soul; it is SYMBOLIC of the Baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT, who is most definitely not water).

The Holy Spirit came upon Cornelius before baptism WHICH HE STILL NEEDED. Your argument fails as expected.