Why the Religious Will Perish with the Unbelievers

[glorydaz]

You are teaching in this forum that UNLESS a person first "hears & believes" he cannot be saved.

Can you please tell me how a person who is not yet saved, not yet PLUGGED IN to Christ - that is, NOT yet in Him Who is the ONLY Source of power, can have any power to "hear & believe"?

KJV Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

KJV 1 Corinthians 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Stop saying "plugged in".....scripture tells us we will be CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS when we believe. HE creates us as new creatures IN HIM.

Eph. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.​

As you have been told, the GOSPEL IS THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION.

1 Corinthians 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.​

 

[glorydaz]

Are you kidding? We are not reconciled to Jesus until we are saved by him after we believe and obey.

Reconciled by death....MUCH MORE "saved by His life". You're preaching only half the truth here, GT. Robert is talking about God's side, and you are talking about man's side. Peace is a two way street.

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
​

Reconciliation requires TWO parties. We are reconciled to God by Christ's death (blood)....Christ died for all men. The blood covers all of mankind, but we can only access that blood "BE RECONCILED" by believing the Gospel (faith). The children of Israel had to apply the blood to the doorposts in order for the death angel to pass over.

We access that Grace (blood) through faith. God offered HIS HAND of PEACE, but each man must agree to that peace. It doesn't do much good for Mr. McCoy to agree to peace if Mr. Hatfield still holds his gun.

Romans 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.​

 

[Samie]

People are born again by the word of God, which is the Gospel, 1 Peter 1:23.

Paul said that "THE GOSPEL IS THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION" Romans 1:16.

Why is it you cannot believe this simple truth?

I ALREADY believeD that simple truth, long, long before you accuse me of NOT believing in it.

BUT why is it that you cannot explain how a person who is not yet saved, not yet PLUGGED IN to Christ - that is, NOT yet in Him Who is the ONLY Source of power - can have any power to "hear & believe"?

KJV Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

KJV 1 Corinthians 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

 

[Samie]

Stop saying "plugged in".....

Because it exposes the falsity of what you and Robert Pate teach?

scripture tells us we will be CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS when we believe.

No Scriptures for that. The verse you used - Eph 2:10, does not say what you say it says. Instead it says, God created us in Christ unto good works, hence, created us in Christ first before one can do good works such as hearing and believing.

You and Pate reverse the order: hear and believe first before one is created in Christ.

HE creates us as new creatures IN HIM.

Agree, and that is how He PLUGS us IN to Christ, first and foremost, before we can do the acts of "hearing and believing".

Eph. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.​

Being IN Christ - that is being PLUGGED IN to Him, comes first BEFORE you can hear & believe.

As you have been told, the GOSPEL IS THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION.

1 Corinthians 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.​

Of course, and it is God Who has begotten us again through the resurrection of Christ:

KJV 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

The gospel is the power of God unto salvation because Christ is the EMBODIMENT of the Gospel. Without Christ there is NO Gospel. The Gospel is the Power of God because Christ Who is the Gospel is the power of God:

KJV 1 Corinthians 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

 

[Robert Pate]

Because it exposes the falsity of what you and Robert Pate teach?

No Scriptures for that. The verse you used - Eph 2:10, does not say what you say it says. Instead it says, God created us in Christ unto good works, hence, created us in Christ first before one can do good works such as hearing and believing.

You and Pate reverse the order: hear and believe first before one is created in Christ.

Agree, and that is how He PLUGS us IN to Christ, first and foremost, before we can do the acts of "hearing and believing".

Being IN Christ - that is being PLUGGED IN to Him, comes first BEFORE you can hear & believe.

Of course, and it is God Who has begotten us again through the resurrection of Christ:

KJV 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

The gospel is the power of God unto salvation because Christ is the EMBODIMENT of the Gospel. Without Christ there is NO Gospel. The Gospel is the Power of God because Christ Who is the Gospel is the power of God:

KJV 1 Corinthians 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

You sound a lot like a Calvinist. You said, "Being in Christ comes first before we hear and believe". That is an heretical statement for which there is no scripture.

Most of your doctrine is made up and is not scriptural. You use a lot of terminology that is not in the Bible. I am writing you off as a heretic.

 

[glorydaz]

No Scriptures for that. The verse you used - Eph 2:10, does not say what you say it says. Instead it says, God created us in Christ unto good works, hence, created us in Christ first before one can do good works such as hearing and believing.

I highlighted that verse so you could see we are "created in" Christ....not "plugged into Christ".:dizzy:

Your claim that believing is a work is contrary to what Paul says elsewhere in scripture. Believing is clearly not a work here, is it? "Worketh not, but believeth..."

Romans 4:5
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.​

Hearing and believing are not works of man. We can try as hard as we might to believe the sky is falling, but unless the sky is actually falling, we can not see or hear or BELIEVE it's falling.


We must be PERSUADED by the TRUTH of the matter. We hear that TRUTH when the Gospel is preached, or we reject it because we love the darkness more than the light.

Man is PERSUADED by God's word....which is why the Gospel is the POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION. The Gospel is PREACHED by the Preacher, but the Power is in the word of God that is being preached.

You need to read the verses you've been given before you jump into water that is too deep for you.

 

[glorydaz]

I ALREADY believeD that simple truth, long, long before you accuse me of NOT believing in it.

BUT why is it that you cannot explain how a person who is not yet saved, not yet PLUGGED IN to Christ - that is, NOT yet in Him Who is the ONLY Source of power - can have any power to "hear & believe"?

KJV Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

KJV 1 Corinthians 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

God is all powerful.....He could just make us believe in Him whether we wanted to or not.


Instead, He ordained preachers to proclaim the Good News. He put that POWER in the Gospel itself. After all, it's the Good News of Salvation. lain:

2 Corinthians 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

 

[patrick jane]

I highlighted that verse so you could see we are "created in" Christ....not "plugged into Christ".:dizzy:

Your claim that believing is a work is contrary to what Paul says elsewhere in scripture. Believing is clearly not a work here, is it? "Worketh not, but believeth..."

Romans 4:5
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.​

Hearing and believing are not works of man. We can try as hard as we might to believe the sky is falling, but unless the sky is actually falling, we can not see or hear or BELIEVE it's falling.


We must be PERSUADED by the TRUTH of the matter. We hear that TRUTH when the Gospel is preached, or we reject it because we love the darkness more than the light.

Man is PERSUADED by God's word....which is why the Gospel is the POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION. The Gospel is PREACHED by the Preacher, but the Power is in the word of God that is being preached.

You need to read the verses you've been given before you jump into water that is too deep for you.

Great post. [MENTION=7209]Ask Mr. Religion[/MENTION] should see it.

 

[God's Truth]

You just make up stuff as you go along, don't you?

No. You just say things like that when you don't care about the truth.

 

[God's Truth]

You are not able to receive truth. 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19, is not something for us to do. This has already happened. God has ALREADY reconciled the world unto himself by Jesus Christ.

The scripture plainly says that "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself by Jesus Christ" 2 Corinthians 5:19.

You hear, but you are not able to comprehend and believe.

That is you exactly.

Jesus reconciles people to him when they believe and obey them. That is when one is given the Holy Spirit.

2 Corinthians 5:20 On Christ's behalf therefore we come as ambassadors, God, as it were, making entreaty through our lips: we, on Christ's behalf, beseech men to be reconciled to God.

 

[God's Truth]

Reconciled by death....MUCH MORE "saved by His life".

You're preaching only half the truth here, GT. Robert is talking about God's side, and you are talking about man's side. Peace is a two way street.

No such thing is going on.

We are reconciled by his death means one must believe his blood shed on the cross ATONES for our sins once and for all---that is where FAITH COMES IN. One must believe that Jesus' blood cleans us of the sins we repent of doing.

We are reconciled by his death because we have to believe his shed blood on the cross cleans us; and, we are saved by his life because he lives to intercede for us as we LIVE to please him.

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
​

I can hardly believe how many times I have given you this scripture and explained that Gentiles were enemies to God because they did not do the ceremonial works, they were not circumcised in the flesh. That means Jesus saved us without making us get circumcised first before he would save us. You never acknowledge what I say and the scripture says. How about try to deal with this scripture:

Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

Reconciliation requires TWO parties. We are reconciled to God by Christ's death (blood)....Christ died for all men. The blood covers all of mankind, but we can only access that blood "BE RECONCILED" by believing the Gospel (faith). The children of Israel had to apply the blood to the doorposts in order for the death angel to pass over.

You just admitted what I said. No one has access to reconciliation unless they have living faith.
One must believe that Jesus blood cleans them of the sins that they repent of doing.

We access that Grace (blood) through faith. God offered HIS HAND of PEACE, but each man must agree to that peace. It doesn't do much good for Mr. McCoy to agree to peace if Mr. Hatfield still holds his gun.

Romans 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.​

I have no idea how you think you need to explain that to me and not to Robert Pate who does not understand it.

 

[glorydaz]

I have no idea how you think you need to explain that to me and not to Robert Pate who does not understand it.

But he does understand it. I've seen him post on this many times. It's you that doesn't.

Read it.....we were reconciled to God WHEN WE WERE ENEMIES (by His death). That's the Grace of God...the big tent that covers all the sins of the world. We access that Grace through faith...which is the MUCH MORE that Paul talks about here. We are saved by His life when we believe (be ye reconciled).

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.​

God did His part (He reached down to mankind by Christ's death on the cross). Now each individual man must reach up (believing) before PEACE is made between God and each individual person.

That's why Jesus is the perfect mediator...He is God and man. God's representative and man's representative.

Robert understands that.....so far, you don't. Will you listen and learn, or just go about your merry way?

 

[Stuu]

If you seek discussion/debate, I would be happy to discuss the reasons you provided, as well as any that you wished to add. If such debate is sought, I can assure I will be as honest and forthcoming as I can be. I can also assure that I will be fair and respectful to your points and arguments.

As for defense of the word "atheist," I believe, as do you, that it is unnecessary. It is, as any word, a label for classifying a set of beliefs/the absence of beliefs. I do not believe the word has a bad rap, especially in modern society. Sure, most communists are atheists, but not all atheists are communists. Bill Maher, for example, is an atheist which I enjoy listening to. Definitely not a Commie.

So, if you seek a discussion on the merits of theism vs atheism, I welcome it. And I think your ten reasons are an excellent listing of arguments against theism, specifically Christianity.

Thank you for your interest. Is there anything in my list worth debating? I think of that list as self-evidently true and not really interesting to debate.

Stuart

 

[jsanford108]

Thank you for your interest. Is there anything in my list worth debating? I think of that list as self-evidently true and not really interesting to debate.

Stuart

I rather enjoy discussions where there in a difference in belief. For example, your list contains some inconsistencies. Your first point is an argument about probability. Which, if you utilize probability, should point to there being at least some kind of higher deity, since there are a higher number of cases (religions) which adhere to some form of theistic structure. Disagreement does not indicate a general falsehood. Your second point argues two different forms of need. Food/water/shelter/etc are basic natural necessities for survival and fitness. Knowledge of history is never labeled as necessary for survival/fitness. So, this point is a false equivalence of sorts. Your third point argues biological and natural laws as being without exception. I could address each point individually, but that would be jumping to a conclusion that you seek discussion.

You view your list as self-evidently true, yet there are errors within your points that cause them to fail on a logical basis. Our discussion would be just that, a discussion. I am not going to try and convince you to abandon logic and follow an archaic theology on blind faith. That would be ignorant on my part. Thus, why I invite discussion/debate (rather than trying to win you over with passages from a book you do not believe is accurate to begin with; I am always annoyed when I see "Christians" just doing some Bible-thumping as if that just convinces all critics and skeptics. They even do it to fellow Christians. So annoying).

 

[Robert Pate]

That is you exactly.

Jesus reconciles people to him when they believe and obey them. That is when one is given the Holy Spirit.

2 Corinthians 5:20 On Christ's behalf therefore we come as ambassadors, God, as it were, making entreaty through our lips: we, on Christ's behalf, beseech men to be reconciled to God.

You have to add works to believing which cancels out faith and believing. You do terrible harm to the Gospel and justification by faith when you add obedience. The Bible does not do that, but you insist upon twisting God's word with your words. You will not escape his judgment.

 

[Robert Pate]

I rather enjoy discussions where there in a difference in belief. For example, your list contains some inconsistencies. Your first point is an argument about probability. Which, if you utilize probability, should point to there being at least some kind of higher deity, since there are a higher number of cases (religions) which adhere to some form of theistic structure. Disagreement does not indicate a general falsehood. Your second point argues two different forms of need. Food/water/shelter/etc are basic natural necessities for survival and fitness. Knowledge of history is never labeled as necessary for survival/fitness. So, this point is a false equivalence of sorts. Your third point argues biological and natural laws as being without exception. I could address each point individually, but that would be jumping to a conclusion that you seek discussion.

You view your list as self-evidently true, yet there are errors within your points that cause them to fail on a logical basis. Our discussion would be just that, a discussion. I am not going to try and convince you to abandon logic and follow an archaic theology on blind faith. That would be ignorant on my part. Thus, why I invite discussion/debate (rather than trying to win you over with passages from a book you do not believe is accurate to begin with; I am always annoyed when I see "Christians" just doing some Bible-thumping as if that just convinces all critics and skeptics. They even do it to fellow Christians. So annoying).

The Bible is God's word and is all that is necessary for faith and practice. Without the Bible you have nothing but the words of men which is worthless.

 

[jsanford108]

The Bible is God's word and is all that is necessary for faith and practice. Without the Bible you have nothing but the words of men which is worthless.

Thank you, Robert. Now go answer the challenges I posed to your claims.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

 

[God's Truth]

But he does understand it. I've seen him post on this many times. It's you that doesn't.

I understand exactly where the two of you go wrong.

Read it.....we were reconciled to God WHEN WE WERE ENEMIES (by His death).

Listen to yourself. Do you really think everyone is already brought back to God? Common sense tells you no.

If all are already reconciled to God, then everyone is already saved.

That's the Grace of God...the big tent that covers all the sins of the world. We access that Grace through faith...which is the MUCH MORE that Paul talks about here. We are saved by His life when we believe (be ye reconciled).

So then, you are a universalist and all are already saved.

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.​

Jan, why are you ignoring what I told you about that scripture and the other scripture that I gave explaining it? Do you know that when you ignore another's explanation and supporting scripture it is what others do that cannot look at their own error and defend their beliefs.

God did His part (He reached down to mankind by Christ's death on the cross). Now each individual man must reach up (believing) before PEACE is made between God and each individual person.

Right...man must do something to enter that grace AND BE RECONCILED.

That's why Jesus is the perfect mediator...He is God and man. God's representative and man's representative.

Robert understands that.....so far, you don't. Will you listen and learn, or just go about your merry way?

You are not listening. Address what I said about that scripture you misused and address the scripture that I gave that supports what I say.

 

[jamie]

The Bible is God's word and is all that is necessary for faith and practice.

Right on, Robert.

That explains why Jesus went around passing out copies of the NT.

 

[God's Truth]

We are reconciled while enemies means the Gentiles were enemies before Jesus came, and, Jesus saved us when we were enemies not following God's commands and getting circumcised. That means Jesus didn't make the Gentiles get circumcised as the Jews did...instead, he saved us while uncircumcised enemies---after we merely believed and obeyed what he says to do to get saved. Amen. That is the truth. That is the truth and no one teaches that because there is so much falseness about faith and do not obey to get saved.