ECT Why shouldn't I convert from Evangelical Protestant to Catholic?

[Nihilo]

You are calling God's Truth 'weak'.

Nope.

I gave you scripture, but you reject it.

Nope.

Paul and the other apostles were still laying the foundation.

Not only that, God can make anything He wants to happen.

Yup.

However, God is not testifying to the Message as He did when the foundation was being laid.

False. God continues to testify to his message (which is the church) to this day.

God ALREADY testified to it, and the foundation has been laid a long time ago.

True.

You have not been giving sight to the blind. You have not been healing paralytics. You have not been raising the dead; neither have any of your popes.

Your popes have added new things to God's Word, and God did not testify with signs and miracles to what they say---because what they say is not of God.

Irrelevant. Once again I'll reiterate what I wrote before, to which this reply is not relevant: "The plainest reading of Jesus' clear word is that miracles will accompany believers, not just Apostles. You go against Jesus' clear word."

Your response does not address this.

 

[RichRock]

opcorn:

Edit: that's meant to be a popcorn smilie, (indicative of watching the debate with interest) but apparently it has to be purchased or it wont display properly.
Enjoy my haphazard free popcorn smilie instead.

 

[RichRock]

I converted from Roman Catholicism to Paganism, then a decade later, a Fundamentalist Christian. There are many good RC posting here. My post is not aimed at them. But there are some who elevate the church traditions, non-Biblical teachings, and the pope above God. That is idolatry. You should take no part in that.

I have no doubt I will meet many Catholics in Heaven, but they might be surprised to see me.

Hi and welcome to the thread.
Interesting journey, may I ask why you left Catholicism and also why you became a fundamentalist?
Regards

 

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

Hi and welcome to the thread.
Interesting journey, may I ask why you left Catholicism and also why you became a fundamentalist?
Regards

I'll give you the short version. The long version is in my Blog.

I had conflicting teaching in my parochial school experience. Nuns taught one thing, priests taught another, and one priest told us what color underwear the girls had on in the religion class before us. That's background.

I had a near death experience drowning where I accepted my own death. As I laid on the bottom of the river in about 10 feet of water waiting for death something came over me as I inhaled river water. Something I can only explain as a peace came over me from somewhere outside of me and my arms and legs started me to craw. I wasn't crawling but my body was under some force not my own. Breathing in water into your lungs hurts. I don't recommend it. After the 3rd breathful of water my head broke the surface. I laid on the shoreline coughing up water as my girlfriend came over. I tried to explain to her what happened but she just took a swing at me and connected. I realized then few if any would ever understand because I sure didn't.

The girlfriend/fiance above and I broke up in my junior year in college. I tried to make sense of my experience by studying religions, all religions. I finally gave up and lived a life without God. I dated infrequently until I met the woman who would be my wife. She became a born-again Christian 6 months after we were married and I remained a non-believer, more or less.

This is way longer than I intended, but we went down to Silver Dollar City in Missouri and I broke apart from my wife and another couple and entered a black powder gun shop. I had no interest in guns but it was cool inside so I just browsed. Then, all of the sudden, my ears started to burn and I was frozen in place listening too the gunsmith's testimony from 20 feet away. I literally could not move. His testimony was amazing. I became a born-again Christian shortly after that. Eventually my constant study of the word led me to a Fundamentalist belief, that is, I take the Bible as literal truth.

 

[Dialogos]

I have been Evangelical Protestant most of my life, even spending some time living in a fulltime religious community.

The more I researched the origin of the bible and the history of my faith, the more I discovered the Catholic Church.

I am taking steps towards joining the Catholic Church and my question is this....'Why shouldn't I?'

I can think of a few reasons.

1. You believe in salvation by faith alone as the scripture say (Ephesians 2:8-10): meaning you don't think that you are saved by the sacraments of the Roman Catholic Church (to begin with) and continue to maintain your own salvation by the sacraments of the RCC throughout your life.

2. You believe in the adequacy and finality of the cross: meaning you don't think that a Roman Catholic priest has to continually re-present the body and blood of Christ to the Father for the forgiveness of your sins but instead the perfect Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross was sufficient as the "once, for all" sacrifice, as the scripture say (Hebrews 10:10).

3. You don't believe you need a priest because you believe that you have access into the most holy place by the blood of Jesus (Who is all the Priest you will ever need), as the scriptures say (Read Hebrews 9).

4. You don't confuse the Word of God with the traditions of man as the Roman Catholic Church does with the notion of sacred tradition.

5. You want to obey Jesus in Matthew 23:9.

6. You don't believe that a Catholic Priest is an alter christus (literally: another Christ) or that during priestly functions the RCC priest is acting in Persona Christi (meaning in the Person of Christ), and you don't believe that because you think that Jesus is all the Christ you will ever need.

7. You think that "Christ in you, the hope of Glory" has less to do with digesting a communion wafer and more to do with an abiding relationship with Christ.

If these things aren't true of you, and haven't ever been true of you. Then you might want to question if you really understood the foundations of your evangelical protestant beliefs in the first place.

 

[Angel4Truth]

opcorn:

Edit: that's meant to be a popcorn smilie, (indicative of watching the debate with interest) but apparently it has to be purchased or it wont display properly.
Enjoy my haphazard free popcorn smilie instead.

opcorn: the p has to be uppercase (capitalized) for it to work, you can use it

 

[Cruciform]

I can think of a few reasons.

1. You believe in salvation by faith alone as the scripture say (Ephesians 2:8-10)...

Please indicate where in Eph. 2:8-9 the phrase "faith alone" appears. Thanks.

2. You believe in the adequacy and finality of the cross: meaning you don't think that a Roman Catholic priest has to continually re-present the body and blood of Christ to the Father for the forgiveness of your sins but instead the perfect Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross was sufficient as the "once, for all" sacrifice, as the scripture say (Hebrews 10:10).

You misunderstand the Eucharist, and this has led you to engage here in a Straw Man Fallacy. Catholics hold that the "once for all" sacrifice accomplished by Christ on the cross is the very same sacrifice that is made present to believers in the Eucharist. The Eucharist is not "another" sacrifice, nor does the Eucharist in any way "add to" Christ's one unique sacrifice.

3. You don't believe you need a priest because you believe that you have access into the most holy place by the blood of Jesus (Who is all the Priest you will ever need), as the scriptures say (Read Hebrews 9).

Addressed here and here.

4. You don't confuse the Word of God with the traditions of man as the Roman Catholic Church does with the notion of sacred tradition.

Ironically, Protestants have their own extra-biblical doctrinal traditions of men which they uncritically "confuse with the Word of God," traditions such as, e.g., sola scriptura (which, being itself nowhere taught in Scripture, merely refutes itself), "believers-only" baptism, sola fide, once-saved-always-saved, etc.

Regarding what Catholics actually affirm about Tradition, see this and this.

5. You want to obey Jesus in Matthew 23:9.

Catholics were correctly following Jesus' instructions in this text for a millennium-and-a-half before a single Protestant ever managed to stumble onto the scene. See this and this.

6. You don't believe that a Catholic Priest is an alter christus (literally: another Christ) or that during priestly functions the RCC priest is acting in Persona Christi (meaning in the Person of Christ), and you don't believe that because you think that Jesus is all the Christ you will ever need.

Answered above.

7. You think that "Christ in you, the hope of Glory" has less to do with digesting a communion wafer and more to do with an abiding relationship with Christ.

This is merely a False Dilemma Fallacy on your part. See this, this, and this.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[God's Truth]

Nope.
Nope.
Yup.
False. God continues to testify to his message (which is the church) to this day.
True.
Irrelevant. Once again I'll reiterate what I wrote before, to which this reply is not relevant: "The plainest reading of Jesus' clear word is that miracles will accompany believers, not just Apostles. You go against Jesus' clear word."

Your response does not address this.

God's Truth rebukes you. You have not been giving sight to the blind. You have not been healing paralytics. You have not been raising the dead; neither have any of your popes.

Your popes have added new things to God's Word, and God did not testify with signs and miracles to what they say---because what they say is not of God.

 

[RichRock]

I'll give you the short version. The long version is in my Blog.

I had conflicting teaching in my parochial school experience. Nuns taught one thing, priests taught another, and one priest told us what color underwear the girls had on in the religion class before us. That's background.

I had a near death experience drowning where I accepted my own death. As I laid on the bottom of the river in about 10 feet of water waiting for death something came over me as I inhaled river water. Something I can only explain as a peace came over me from somewhere outside of me and my arms and legs started me to craw. I wasn't crawling but my body was under some force not my own. Breathing in water into your lungs hurts. I don't recommend it. After the 3rd breathful of water my head broke the surface. I laid on the shoreline coughing up water as my girlfriend came over. I tried to explain to her what happened but she just took a swing at me and connected. I realized then few if any would ever understand because I sure didn't.

The girlfriend/fiance above and I broke up in my junior year in college. I tried to make sense of my experience by studying religions, all religions. I finally gave up and lived a life without God. I dated infrequently until I met the woman who would be my wife. She became a born-again Christian 6 months after we were married and I remained a non-believer, more or less.

This is way longer than I intended, but we went down to Silver Dollar City in Missouri and I broke apart from my wife and another couple and entered a black powder gun shop. I had no interest in guns but it was cool inside so I just browsed. Then, all of the sudden, my ears started to burn and I was frozen in place listening too the gunsmith's testimony from 20 feet away. I literally could not move. His testimony was amazing. I became a born-again Christian shortly after that. Eventually my constant study of the word led me to a Fundamentalist belief, that is, I take the Bible as literal truth.

Thanks for sharing your story. I asked the question because it seems to me that the people who leave the Catholic faith are those who were brought up in it as disinterested children and those who never really understood the teachings of the Church.
Your story shows this may be the case with yourself.
Your constant study of the word, as you say may lead you down this following path...
Who compiled the canon of scripture?
What happened for the first three centuries before the canon of scripture was formed?
Who were these people during the first three centuries and do we have a record of what they said and taught?
If they were taught by the apostles, should we take notice of what they passed down to their students, and their students students?
I highly recommend reading the Church Fathers, it opened my eyes.
I wish you well, bless you
Rich

 

[RichRock]

opcorn: the p has to be uppercase (capitalized) for it to work, you can use it

Ahh..I see, thank you

opcorn:

 

[RichRock]

I can think of a few reasons.

1. You believe in salvation by faith alone as the scripture say (Ephesians 2:8-10): meaning you don't think that you are saved by the sacraments of the Roman Catholic Church (to begin with) and continue to maintain your own salvation by the sacraments of the RCC throughout your life.

2. You believe in the adequacy and finality of the cross: meaning you don't think that a Roman Catholic priest has to continually re-present the body and blood of Christ to the Father for the forgiveness of your sins but instead the perfect Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross was sufficient as the "once, for all" sacrifice, as the scripture say (Hebrews 10:10).

3. You don't believe you need a priest because you believe that you have access into the most holy place by the blood of Jesus (Who is all the Priest you will ever need), as the scriptures say (Read Hebrews 9).

4. You don't confuse the Word of God with the traditions of man as the Roman Catholic Church does with the notion of sacred tradition.

5. You want to obey Jesus in Matthew 23:9.

6. You don't believe that a Catholic Priest is an alter christus (literally: another Christ) or that during priestly functions the RCC priest is acting in Persona Christi (meaning in the Person of Christ), and you don't believe that because you think that Jesus is all the Christ you will ever need.

7. You think that "Christ in you, the hope of Glory" has less to do with digesting a communion wafer and more to do with an abiding relationship with Christ.

If these things aren't true of you, and haven't ever been true of you. Then you might want to question if you really understood the foundations of your evangelical protestant beliefs in the first place.

These points and fallacies have already been covered in the thread...and were refuted with the truth. (Thanks Cruciform for re-explaining these basic points yet again to the uninformed rhetoric fountain.)

I would point out your final paragraph seems to be a common one from a desperate position, particularly when one really knows and begins to suspect their own beliefs may be incorrect..... they really don't have a counter argument whatsoever which is based on FACT.

 

[Aimiel]

I'd move more towards Eastern Orthodox, myself, if I were inclined to want to get back to what the early church actually looked like, since they hold more to what the church actually was, from my understanding. The RCC is WAY off base.

 

[Saved.One.by.Grace]

Thanks for sharing your story. I asked the question because it seems to me that the people who leave the Catholic faith are those who were brought up in it as disinterested children and those who never really understood the teachings of the Church.
Your story shows this may be the case with yourself.

Quite the contrary. I attended mass 6-7 times a week, and got high marks in my religion classes. My best friend became a priest and still is one. We practiced saying mass in my basement. This was grades 1-8. In both grade school and high school the teaching was inconsistent. One year we'd be taught the bible stories were to be taken literally, the next year as allegorical. We were not encouraged to read the Bible, only passages to support a church doctrine.

Your constant study of the word, as you say may lead you down this following path...
Who compiled the canon of scripture?
What happened for the first three centuries before the canon of scripture was formed?
Who were these people during the first three centuries and do we have a record of what they said and taught?
If they were taught by the apostles, should we take notice of what they passed down to their students, and their students students?
I highly recommend reading the Church Fathers, it opened my eyes.
I wish you well, bless you.
Rich

I put my faith in God's word, not in church tradition.

 

[God's Truth]

I'd move more towards Eastern Orthodox, myself, if I were inclined to want to get back to what the early church actually looked like, since they hold more to what the church actually was, from my understanding. The RCC is WAY off base.

How sad. Eastern Orthodox does not have God's Truth.

Does the Bible say to baptize with water by dunking three times.

Does God say do not call your brothers 'father'?

Does God say do not bow to the works of your hands?

 

[RichRock]

Quite the contrary. I attended mass 6-7 times a week, and got high marks in my religion classes. My best friend became a priest and still is one. We practiced saying mass in my basement. This was grades 1-8. In both grade school and high school the teaching was inconsistent. One year we'd be taught the bible stories were to be taken literally, the next year as allegorical. We were not encouraged to read the Bible, only passages to support a church doctrine.


I put my faith in God's word, not in church tradition.

Not encouraged to read the bible? If this was indeed the case, the person instructing is in direct conflict with the teachings of the church:

CCC133: The Church "forcefully and specifically exhorts all the Christian faithful...to learn 'the surpassing knowledge of Jesus Christ,' by frequent reading of divine Scriptures. 'Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.'"

You put your faith in God's word and not Church tradition?

I put my faith in Sacred Scripture AND Sacred Tradition because they have one common source, the divine well-spring. They come together in some fashion to form one thing and move towards the same goal.

CCC81-82: 'And (Holy) Tradition transmits in it's entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound, and spread it aboard by their preaching.'"

As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."

I logically deducted from research into the first few hundred years after Christ's resurrection that to deny the traditions of the Church and Church Father's teachings was willful ignorance on my part. Research showed me that the Catholic Church faithfully upholds these traditions and of course, the Word of God.

 

[RichRock]

I'd move more towards Eastern Orthodox, myself, if I were inclined to want to get back to what the early church actually looked like, since they hold more to what the church actually was, from my understanding. The RCC is WAY off base.

Ignore god's truth (strange forum user name, wouldn't you say?). She's on my ignore list as she keeps asking the same questions over and over, even though she has been answered in depth multiple times in the thread.

Now, your statement interests me.
What would you say the EO Chuch has that the CC doesn't? Personally I don't see much difference at all, but I could be wrong?
Thanks

 

[Aimiel]

Experience. The EO believes more in the experience of God whereas the RCC is after traditions of men, not finding God. God is Spirit. The RCC thinks that God is a word, to be memorized or recited in a liturgy. The EO thinks of spiritual experience as more important than scholasticism.

 

[God's Truth]

Experience. The EO believes more in the experience of God whereas the RCC is after traditions of men, not finding God. God is Spirit. The RCC thinks that God is a word, to be memorized or recited in a liturgy. The EO thinks of spiritual experience as more important than scholasticism.

Both those denominations have traditions of men!

 

[God's Truth]

The Roman Catholic, all Catholics, the Eastern Orthodox...none of them look like and sound like God's Truth.

 

[Aimiel]

How sad. Eastern Orthodox does not have God's Truth.

Well... if you DO find a church that is perfect, don't join it, because you'll ruin it. :duh:

Does the Bible say to baptize with water by dunking three times.

Does The Bible say you are my judge?

Does God say do not call your brothers 'father'?

I don't, I just think there is far more right with EO than with the RCC. They're followers of traditions of men just like the RCC is and just like you are; but they put emphasis on spiritual experience. Your church doesn't, obviously.

Does God say do not bow to the works of your hands?

So... why do you? You bow to the works of your mind. You think you're holier-than-thou with your mis-judgment. Please buy a clue.