Why I’m No Longer a Russiagate Skeptic

The Barbarian

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Facts are piling up, and it’s getting harder to deny what’s staring us in the face.
At the NATO summit in Brussels, Trump attacked a close European ally—Germany—and generally questioned the value of the alliance. Next, he visited the United Kingdom and trashed Prime Minister Theresa May. Then, in Helsinki, he met with Vladimir Putin privately for two hours, with no U.S. officials present other than a translator. After this suspicious meeting, he sang the Russian strongman’s praises at a news conference at which he said he viewed Putin’s denials on a par with the unanimous and unchallenged conclusions of America’s intelligence agencies.
...
With every other world leader, the physically imposing Trump attempts to dominate—witness his alpha-male handshakes with French President Emanuel Macron or his flamboyant man-spreading next to German Chancellor Angela Merkel. Yet with the diminutive Putin—who is maybe 5 feet, 6 inches tall—he’s oddly submissive. During the public portion of their encounter, Trump was slumping in his chair, as if defeated. Why? Why did he insist on a one-on-one meeting with Putin in the first place?
...
But nobody would say his odd solicitousness toward the Kremlin leader is a political winner, and it certainly causes an unnecessary amount of friction with Republicans in Congress. He’s kept it up at great political cost to himself, and that suggests either that he is possessed by an anomalous level of conviction on this one issue, despite his extraordinary malleability on everything else—or that he’s beholden to Putin in some way.
...
And pay attention, too, to what the White House says about Russia’s absurd demand that the U.S. hand over former ambassador to Moscow Mike McFaul—Wednesday’s spectacle of Sarah Huckabee Sanders refusing to immediately rule out the idea flies in the face of decades of American diplomacy. Trump may have grudgingly admitted that Russia did the deed, but nobody should be surprised if he starts shedding doubt on it all over again. Maybe, just maybe, he can’t admit that Moscow tried to put him in the Oval Office because he’s under strict instructions not to.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/s...sion-of-a-no-longer-russiagate-skeptic-219022
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
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Wow. You're really taken with perceptions, huh? :chuckle:

Got anything of substance (not the stuff you're smoking)?
 

Stripe

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We'll take that as a no. :chuckle:

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The Barbarian

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Stipe projects:
Got anything of substance (not the stuff you're smoking)?

Is there something you want to tell us about a habit, Stipe? When an American president puts the word of a vicious dictator about the evidence of our own intelligence people, there's a huge problem.

When he has to think before he decides whether or not to turn over a U.S. diplomat to Russian interrogators, there's a huge problem.

And yes, one wonders if anyone who doesn't get that, has been smoking something.
 

Stripe

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Is there something you want to tell us about a habit, Stipe?
:idunno:

When an American president puts the word of a vicious dictator about the evidence of our own intelligence people, there's a huge problem.
OK. :idunno:

When he has to think before he decides whether or not to turn over a U.S. diplomat to Russian interrogators, there's a huge problem.
You don't like thinking. Gotcha. :up:

The right decision was made. What's the problem?

And all that isn't even this thread. In this thread you are basing everything on perceptions. Got something substantial instead?
 

The Barbarian

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(Stipe hints about "smoking some substance")

Barbarian asks:
Something you want to tell us, Stipe?

:idunno:

Stuff below suggests that you might.

Barbarian observes:
When an American president puts the word of a vicious dictator about the evidence of our own intelligence people, there's a huge problem.

OK. :idunno:

So now you realize it's a substantial problem? You don't like thinking. Gotcha.

Barbarian observes:
When he has to think before he decides whether or not to turn over a U.S. diplomat to Russian interrogators, there's a huge problem.

The right decision was made. What's the problem?

After two days, and a major firestorm over his waffling on the subject. An American leader, or at least one loyal to America would have rejected it out of hand.

And all that isn't even this thread.

It's his behavior. It's in the OP. Perhaps you are smoking something...

In this thread you are basing everything on perceptions.

Those are facts. Matter of public record. Don't blame you for trying to hide them. But it's pointless. They were done publicly.
 

Stripe

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So now you realize it's a substantial problem?
Only if it's happening.

However, this thread wasn't about that. You don't like thinking, do you?

After two days, and a major firestorm over his waffling on the subject. An American leader, or at least one loyal to America would have rejected it out of hand.
Or maybe he just likes watching leftist like you foam at the mouth about nothing. :idunno:

Those are facts.

I know what news reports should look like. That wasn't one. That was an opinion piece. Belongs on page 9.

It's all perceptions and narrative. You eat it up like it means something.

Next week it will be something else, and this will be forgotten.

Wait. Tomorrow.

Wait. In a few hours.

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ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
Remember all those kids the leftists were
pretending to be concerned about a couple weeks ago?
 

Stripe

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Remember all those kids the leftists were
pretending to be concerned about a couple weeks ago?
I remember someone called Donaldtrump was ripping them from their mother's arms and putting them in concentration camps.

Or at least, that was the "news."

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ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
just for fun, i think i'll bold all the facts in the following:

Facts are piling up, and it’s getting harder to deny what’s staring us in the face.
At the NATO summit in Brussels, Trump attacked a close European ally—Germany—and generally questioned the value of the alliance. Next,

he visited the United Kingdom

and trashed Prime Minister Theresa May.

Then, in Helsinki, he met with Vladimir Putin privately for two hours, with no U.S. officials present other than a translator.

After this suspicious meeting, he sang the Russian strongman’s praises at a news conference at which he said he viewed Putin’s denials on a par with the unanimous and unchallenged conclusions of America’s intelligence agencies.
...
With every other world leader, the physically imposing Trump attempts to dominate—witness his alpha-male handshakes with French President Emanuel Macron or his flamboyant man-spreading next to German Chancellor Angela Merkel. Yet with the diminutive Putin—who is maybe 5 feet, 6 inches tall—he’s oddly submissive. During the public portion of their encounter, Trump was slumping in his chair, as if defeated. Why? Why did he insist on a one-on-one meeting with Putin in the first place?
...
But nobody would say his odd solicitousness toward the Kremlin leader is a political winner, and it certainly causes an unnecessary amount of friction with Republicans in Congress. He’s kept it up at great political cost to himself, and that suggests either that he is possessed by an anomalous level of conviction on this one issue, despite his extraordinary malleability on everything else—or that he’s beholden to Putin in some way.
...
And pay attention, too, to what the White House says about Russia’s absurd demand that the U.S. hand over former ambassador to Moscow Mike McFaul—Wednesday’s spectacle of Sarah Huckabee Sanders refusing to immediately rule out the idea flies in the face of decades of American diplomacy. Trump may have grudgingly admitted that Russia did the deed, but nobody should be surprised if he starts shedding doubt on it all over again. Maybe, just maybe, he can’t admit that Moscow tried to put him in the Oval Office because he’s under strict instructions not to.
https://www.politico.com/magazine/s...sion-of-a-no-longer-russiagate-skeptic-219022


so that's it


and i have no illusions about barbie's ability to perform the following, but just for the fun of embarrassing the confused old geezer, i'll give it a try


barbie - the piece you quoted mentioned "Russia’s absurd demand that the U.S. hand over former ambassador to Moscow Mike McFaul"

in the interests of factual accuracy, could you provide me with the exact quote from "Russia" (i assume Putin) demanding that the U.S. hand over former ambassador to Moscow Mike McFaul?

Vox
has the entire transcript of the press conference in question - it should be a simple matter of cutting and pasting
 

The Barbarian

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Well, let's see what his press secretary has to say about whether or not that happened:

WASHINGTON – The firestorm over President Donald Trump's summit with Vladimir Putin has broadened to include the revelation that Trump is open to allowing Russian investigators to grill American citizens, including former U.S. ambassador Michael McFaul.

The White House confirmed Wednesday that Trump was considering a proposal from the Russian president to allow Kremlin officials to question McFaul and other individuals in exchange for allowing U.S. investigators to sit in on the questioning of 12 Russians indicted on charges of trying to undermine the 2016 U.S. election.

The arrangement, which Trump called an "incredible offer," has been condemned by critics and dubbed "absolutely absurd" by the State Department.

White House Press Secretary Sarah Sanders said the request had been discussed but there "wasn't a commitment made on behalf of the United States."
“The president is going to meet with his team and we’ll let you know when we have an announcement on that,” White House spokeswoman Sarah Sanders told a news briefing. Sanders added that Trump “said it was an interesting idea ... He wants to work with his team and determine if there is any validity that would be helpful to the process”.


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...oning-former-u-s-ambassador-mcfaul/799041002/
 

Stripe

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Blabla thinks Sanders is Putin. :chuckle:

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ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
Well, let's see what his press secretary has to say about whether or not that happened:

WASHINGTON – The firestorm over President Donald Trump's summit with Vladimir Putin has broadened to include the revelation that Trump is open to allowing Russian investigators to grill ...


i don't see the word "grill" in the quotes you give from trump or sanders - do you?

barbie said:
...American citizens, including former U.S. ambassador Michael McFaul.

The White House confirmed Wednesday that Trump was considering a proposal...

wait - now it's "a proposal"?

just a minute ago it was a "demand"


barbie said:
from the Russian president to allow Kremlin officials to question

"to question" ??? :freak:

what happened to "grill"?


barbie said:
McFaul and other individuals in exchange for allowing U.S. investigators to sit in on the questioning of 12 Russians indicted on charges of trying to undermine the 2016 U.S. election.

The arrangement, which Trump called an "incredible offer," has been condemned by critics and dubbed "absolutely absurd" by the State Department.

White House Press Secretary Sarah Sanders said the request had been discussed but there "wasn't a commitment made on behalf of the United States."
“The president is going to meet with his team and we’ll let you know when we have an announcement on that,” White House spokeswoman Sarah Sanders told a news briefing. Sanders added that Trump “said it was an interesting idea ... He wants to work with his team and determine if there is any validity that would be helpful to the process”.[/COLOR]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...oning-former-u-s-ambassador-mcfaul/799041002/

so trump's in negotiations with putin, putin makes an offer that is in his own interests (as one would expect), trump decides to discuss the offer with his advisors before responding and the left goes absolutely insane talking about imaginary "demands" and "grilling"?


is that about it?
 

The Barbarian

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i don't see the word "grill" in the quotes you give from trump or sanders - do you?

Would you be O.K. with "interrogate", "question", etc?
https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/interrogate

The disloyalty to America is not in the verb he used, but in his willingness consider turning American officials over to the Russians for questioning. You know that. So does everyone else here. Why bother with angry screaming?

Would you be happier if Putin had merely "proposed" such a scheme? Or is it only disloyal if he "demanded" it?

so trump's in negotiations with putin, putin makes an offer that is in his own interests

To have Trump turn over an American ambassador to Russians for questioning. You can hardly blame Putin here; if Trump is disloyal enough to consider it, why not?

trump decides to discuss the offer with his advisors before responding

He has to consider whether or not he should help an unfriendly nation take one of our diplomats for questioning? Isn't that an pretty good reason for concern? According to Sara Sanders, he was actually considering it. As George Will said, he's a "sad, embarrassing wreck of a man."

is that about it?

Pretty much. And notice that screaming didn't make you any more credible. Think about it, fluffbutton.
 
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