Again, I have all of the right enemies, and what better enemies to have than "I'm not a libertarian!" libertarians?
Why Homosexuality MUST Be Recriminalized! Part 6
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aCultureWarrior said:
I read and reread your post...ahem..."Lon" and I swear I couldn't find an answer as to why TOL's two biggest "I'm not a libertarian!"libertarians admire your posts so much. One would think that if you were espousing Judeo-Christian doctrine, things that go against libertarian doctrine of "It's MY body and I can do with it as I please!" and "Non Aggression Principle"/NAP , no government intervention in supposed 'victimless crimes, (if there weren't victims, it wouldn't be a crime), they'd despise you.
Boy....ahem...."Lon", for not being a libertarian, you sure know a lot about libertarianism.
You don't know any, because they don't exist. You can't love God (and His institutions) with all of your heart, mind and soul and love your neighbor as you'd love yourself if you embrace libertarian doctrine.
aCultureWarrior said:
“If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first."
John 15:18
Have you given any consideration as to asking for a refund from Moody Bible College (or was it Notre Dame'?). Tell me the story again...
18If the world hates you, understand that it hated Me first. 19If you were of the world, it would love you as its own. Instead, the world hates you, because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world.…
People who embrace Judeo-Christian doctrine, i.e. people who don't embrace homosexuality, abortion recreational drug use, prostitution, pornography, etc. etc. things that libertarians call "freedom" and "liberty" are hated because they don't embrace the lie of "It's MY body and I can do with it as I please!"
Are you sure you have some theology training, cuz John 15:18 is so basic even a Sunday Schooler could understand it.
I read and reread your post...ahem..."Lon" and I swear I couldn't find an answer as to why TOL's two biggest "I'm not a libertarian!"libertarians admire your posts so much. One would think that if you were espousing Judeo-Christian doctrine, things that go against libertarian doctrine of "It's MY body and I can do with it as I please!" and "Non Aggression Principle"/NAP , no government intervention in supposed 'victimless crimes, (if there weren't victims, it wouldn't be a crime), they'd despise you.
Don't work what way, despise people who through legislation want to take their "freedoms" and "liberties" away? (homosexuality, abortion, pornography, recreational drug use, prostitution, etc. etc., those things that Christians call being enslaved to sin).
i.e. they want recreational drugs legalized in their respective State. Hey, they pretty have everything else legal that libertarianism stands for, maybe prostitution too?
Boy....ahem...."Lon", for not being a libertarian, you sure know a lot about libertarianism.
You don't know any, because they don't exist. You can't love God (and His institutions) with all of your heart, mind and soul and love your neighbor as you'd love yourself if you embrace libertarian doctrine.
aCultureWarrior said:
“If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first."
John 15:18
Have you given any consideration as to asking for a refund from Moody Bible College (or was it Notre Dame'?). Tell me the story again...
18If the world hates you, understand that it hated Me first. 19If you were of the world, it would love you as its own. Instead, the world hates you, because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world.…
People who embrace Judeo-Christian doctrine, i.e. people who don't embrace homosexuality, abortion recreational drug use, prostitution, pornography, etc. etc. things that libertarians call "freedom" and "liberty" are hated because they don't embrace the lie of "It's MY body and I can do with it as I please!"
Are you sure you have some theology training, cuz John 15:18 is so basic even a Sunday Schooler could understand it.
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Lon
Well-known member
Look above. Your posts about Libertarians are much much longer than mine. Does it matter? Does it really matter? I'm not Libertarian. I'm not Democrat, nor Republican at this point. What you COULD do is tell the rest of us Christians what you really think....something helpful....something that would work. Do we just drop out of politics altogether? What do we do, CW? What do you or your pastor suggest? Can you actually post something 'helpful?' Are you just into complaining and showing anger and angst? What is the remedy? For me: Christ coming back. Until then? OPEN to suggestions. Do you HAVE any????
I don't love government with my heart soul mind and strength AND love my neighbor not that far: 'as myself.' Know scriptures. If anything, listen to your elders and your betters. K?
Look it up. I'm not into your cheap insults so you'll have to look it up. You know, study to shew yourself approved which you aren't doing. You disdain God?? Listen to your elders and betters AND read your Bible daily like a good many of the rest of us THEN you can say "Hey! I didn't realize it, we disagree but if you are in Christ, I really DON'T get to tell you, we aren't brothers because that is arrogant and Jesus' alone to call!" Until then? Close the mouth when you SHOULD be silent.
It is true, but the majority of Americans are still Christians, at least by chosen identity. If you lived in a Muslim country, you'd be killed, of course.
Yes, and sure you don't know a few things about that verse. It was written directly to Christians that were about to die. It was written during a time when any kind of 'new' was persecuted to death. When is the last time a Mormon was burned at the stake? Do you remember? How about a Christian? As I said: In Muslim countries. Here in the U.S.A.?
Try (seriously, 'try') to listen to your elders and betters. We do have a much better grasp of scriptures than you do.
aCultureWarrior said:
Don't work what way, despise people who through legislation want to take their "freedoms" and "liberties" away? (homosexuality, abortion, pornography, recreational drug use, prostitution, etc. etc., those things that Christians call being enslaved to sin).
I doubt that your "I'm not a libertarian!" libertarian friends here on TOL are convinced, and I didn't fall off of the turnip truck yesterday, so I know better.
aCultureWarrior said:
You don't know any [Christian libertarians], because they don't exist. You can't love God (and His institutions) with all of your heart, mind and soul and love your neighbor as you'd love yourself if you embrace libertarian doctrine.
Now that we've established that there is no such thing as a Christian libertarian, it's quite obvious that you don't love the institution that God created for the purpose that He created it.
aCultureWarrior said:
“If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first."
John 15:18
Have you given any consideration as to asking for a refund from Moody Bible College (or was it Notre Dame'?). Tell me the story again...
aCultureWarrior said:
People who embrace Judeo-Christian doctrine, i.e. people who don't embrace homosexuality, abortion recreational drug use, prostitution, pornography, etc. etc. things that libertarians call "freedom" and "liberty" are hated because they don't embrace the lie of "It's MY body and I can do with it as I please!"
And it still is written to Christians that are persecuted (hated, imprisoned, assaulted, etc.) because they don't embrace the ways of the secular humanist/libertarian world.
I can see you're getting frustrated here....ahem..."Lon". Maybe you should take a breather?
Don't work what way, despise people who through legislation want to take their "freedoms" and "liberties" away? (homosexuality, abortion, pornography, recreational drug use, prostitution, etc. etc., those things that Christians call being enslaved to sin).
Does it really matter that evil doctrine is running this once great God-fearing nation? To some it does, obviously it doesn't to you.
Who are you trying to convince?
I doubt that your "I'm not a libertarian!" libertarian friends here on TOL are convinced, and I didn't fall off of the turnip truck yesterday, so I know better.
aCultureWarrior said:
You don't know any [Christian libertarians], because they don't exist. You can't love God (and His institutions) with all of your heart, mind and soul and love your neighbor as you'd love yourself if you embrace libertarian doctrine.
Now that we've established that there is no such thing as a Christian libertarian, it's quite obvious that you don't love the institution that God created for the purpose that He created it.
aCultureWarrior said:
“If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first."
John 15:18
Have you given any consideration as to asking for a refund from Moody Bible College (or was it Notre Dame'?). Tell me the story again...
LOL...I'll help write the request for a refund letter to Moody if you like. Like I said, John 15:18 is basic Sunday School stuff and is easily understood without commentaries. Tell me the temptation story again...please.
aCultureWarrior said:
People who embrace Judeo-Christian doctrine, i.e. people who don't embrace homosexuality, abortion recreational drug use, prostitution, pornography, etc. etc. things that libertarians call "freedom" and "liberty" are hated because they don't embrace the lie of "It's MY body and I can do with it as I please!"
Ah, is that why evangelicals voted for a rainbow flag waver for President....twice because they're good followers of Christ, including in the political realm?
Yes, and sure you don't know a few things about that verse. It was written directly to Christians that were about to die. It was written during a time when any kind of 'new' was persecuted to death. When is the last time a Mormon was burned at the stake? Do you remember? How about a Christian? As I said: In Muslim countries. Here in the U.S.A.?
And it still is written to Christians that are persecuted (hated, imprisoned, assaulted, etc.) because they don't embrace the ways of the secular humanist/libertarian world.
I can see you're getting frustrated here....ahem..."Lon". Maybe you should take a breather?
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Lon
Well-known member
"despite"
I'm not sure what is what. I've read that prostitution was legal in states in the past. Now, again. The back and forth with such makes my head spin BUT the answer isn't government, it is salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ. When people are saved, they will lead into godly legislation. My answer is: Change lives first, government will follow (and is not the answer nor the starting place for Christians). We might disagree, and that's okay if we both have a working plan. You can work yours. At that point, what IS your plan? I've asked and asked.
You shouldn't guess. Ask. Guessing and with the worst? You can't raise godly kids that way. You can't win people to Jesus that way. It is just angst and complaining.
Not even you. I could give a care less. Christian. Anything else is just parties of mostly nonChristian representatives.
Poor you, and so what? I could give a care less what label you want to put on people. What are you? Democrat? Not Republican. Not Libertarian. Can I just 'throw you uncritically into just any of the three bins' like you've done to me?
I don't love the government with all my heart soul mind and strength. I don't love Christians that way either, but close. You aren't loving Jesus with your whole heart soul mind and strength when you treat what belongs to Him like junk, second-rate aliens.
Government? Correct, I don't. I pray for leaders. I put up with taxes. I vote for morals and speak against sin. You?
Nope.
No thanks, you can't even spell and Moody hasn't heard of me. Nice try.
To me? Harping on one of 3 parties and all of them with a lot of problems. The largest problem is coming from the legal sector, though presidential executive orders have also been full of huge compromises to holiness.
Or Obama? Or Clinton? I 'try' not to condemn people trying to figure out politics and how they should vote. I didn't vote for any of these. You? Moreover, I've asked you 3 times now to give Christians guidance. How good can they do, when even you refuse to give them clear guidance? Nothing. None. You have given no godly advice. You are just bashing people for voting and literally given them nothing 'better.' No instructions. No scriptures that speak to their needs. You've given nothing. Should I ask a fourth time? Will you just ignore it once again? What should a Christian do?? Nothing? No? Just be condemned if they do ANYTHING??? Really? That's all you got? Fourth time then: Give ANYTHING. Point the way or shut it?
I live in a democratic state (next city over from you). We literally have no libertarians and very very few Republicans to even know what 'persecutions from a Libertarian' would look like. Because of that, we are about clueless as to persecution. I do have, and maybe share some concerns about 'libertarian' ideals, starting with my 'right' to pursue 'happiness' which is different than pursuing Christ and meaning. Such fosters narcissism, hedonism, and self-reliant independence that often leads to civil friction. You've said 'godly' and I think we did have a short time "In God We Trust" with the Ten Commandments hanging in every public school as well as public school prayer books. But I'm not going to blame Libertarians for our loss, it was mostly ungodly attacks from supreme court decisions, removing God in the 'guise' of separation of church and state, abused and rewritten far from the intent. Do we agree? Something else you see differently? You've been fighting with Christians in these threads so long now, do you even know how to carry on a meaningful discussion? Even with disagreements? Do you even know how to meet a request any more?
Most often see these kinds of 'assessments' as projection. I have rebuked your accusations and angry comments from a godly perspective, as I understand the scriptures. YOU don't get to choose your brothers and sisters in Christ else it'd be you instead of Jesus I'd need to follow. When I see that kind of arrogance, a warning is immanent and has to come from Him. It is stepping into Jesus' place and it is a wrong and dangerous place to be. If you are not a Christian, no concern. If you are, you are in need of discipline. You took liberty with what belongs to Christ alone and I take exception with such, treating all as brothers and sister who need correction, until such a time as they no longer desire Him. Until such a time as you renounce the Lord Jesus Christ, I will remind you to adhere to your elders and betters and follow those directions.
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No, your fellow libertarians "despise" people who try to take away their sinful "freedoms" and "liberties".
As an anarchist, your issue is with God, as He knows that everyone wouldn't be guided by His moral laws, and hence created civil government as one of three institutions for the governance of man. You really should have read and studied 'Civil Government: The Neglected Ministry", as it's all in there, but then you've been an anarchist for how many decades now?
One doesn't have to have a person relationship with Jesus Christ to follow the commandments given by God in Exodus 18:21 and recognize the role of civil government in Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2: 13-14.
As an anarchist, you know this.
As far as the rest of your post goes: I'm not going to waste my time on a "I'm not a libertarian!" libertarian that pretends to be a Christian.
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
No it isn't, it's the same; but it's a choice. I choose to pursue Christ and meaning, others do not, they attempt to pursue happiness in some other way, perhaps as a pagan. We don't have a right to punish, penalize or harass such, with our government, and our government should protect such against being punished, penalized or harassed by others as well.
It doesn't forbid those things, does that equal 'fostering' them? The opposite of fostering is 'not-fostering'---how do we 'not-foster' without forbidding outright? I think, by protecting against our government imposing someone's idea of attempting to pursue happiness upon us.
The right to the pursuit of happiness has been infringed when our government imposes someone else's idea of attempting to pursue happiness upon us.
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
He created civil government, and He gives us our rights. Liberal governments protect our rights through constitutionalism, separation of powers, and civilian control of the military, the liberal institutions.
Since they are all ordered to protecting our God-given rights, the liberal institutions show that God is a liberal.
I'm accusing you of being a liberal. You believe in God-given rights.
Lon
Well-known member
They do? I'm not sure how to 'legislate.' I simply think if people are brought to Christ, those 'want' to please Christ. They may or may not know how to do things politically. Moses was a good leader, but God took him for a burst in anger, specifically because he got to the point where anger took over and he was supposed to be the mediator. It is why he had to give up that position. After that, many kinds of government trials happened in Israel and none of them seemed to work. When they wanted a king, it was their downfall.
Point? I believe with you, God sets up governors, but they don't have the answers. Sin is the condition and Jesus is the only answer. While I may agree on a good number of issues, I'm a bit surprised these past two days, that you've taken to attacking me. You've prayed for me, for goodness (and I'd hope Jesus' and my) sake! Was it not sincere? What in the world has happened to you?
You are more anarchist than I. I've repeatedly told you to listen to your elders and betters and you refuse (anarchist).
No. The family is very organic. Marriage is the institution from which it springs. Government is a necessary evil that is only needed after sin entered the world. Up until then, God walked in the garden and people loved one another. The church is also organically, the body of Christ. You attack it and each member in this thread. TRY and see people who don't see eye to eye with you as perhaps misinformed rather than being your particular enemy and THEN drawing a line with you and the Lord Jesus Christ on one side. It is posturing AND attacking His body then asking Him to stand there with you at the neck! No body! That's flat out, no compromise, wrong, CW. Stop it.
I've read a few pieces including Archie P Jones. While government is my civil responsibility, I'm interested in HIs kingdom, the one 'not of this world.' A man's ideas are fine, but scripture is of paramount importance in these kinds of discussions, no matter how convinced you were that Archie might have known what he was talking about. Archie didn't grasp that Paul's point was not 'get involved in government.' Paul certainly wasn't telling you that God set up Nero to kill off all Christians. Only the godly leaders that uphold God's standards are the ones that Paul meant: That people who enforce good, are set up by God to hold back evil. I'm not sure how much you agree or disagree, but it'd help if you actually stopped posturing and engaged the discussion instead of 'Lon bad!' Neanderthal responses.
Er, totally disagree. Part of those instructions are God-ward. A person without God cannot please God.
Really? Where are my tickets? Prison sentences served? None? (nope). Guess again? If I'm an anarchist, I'd say I'm a failure but if it floats your boat to accuse, by all means continue naming platitudes of meaningless banter! Good for you!
You don't GET to tell people if they are in Christ or not. You literally have no choice OTHER than rejecting Christ yourself. I'll correct you all over TOL for this. You don't get a pass. You don't even know your Bible half this well to even be able to try. Arrogance gets you nothing.
Lon
Well-known member
Just "me and Jesus and nobody else!" I don't think so. That's NOT the body of Christ. You as a neck isn't a body. Learn from your elders and betters, you cut people, the whole body of Christ, off at the neck. You are so worried about a dirty hand, you've cut every last person who needs or calls on the Lord Jesus Christ, from your fellowship and life. That's wrong. Mean. And sinful. Sorry, fact. Learn from your elders and betters. Jesus ate with publicans (Any of them Libertarian? Republican? Democrats? All dirty publicans? No?), tax collectors and sinners. He said He came for the sick. You? You wouldn't be caught dead at a 'publican' party with Jesus at this point. The body isn't perfected yet. You'd cut off every 'hint' of impropriety. Peter and Paul had this conversation. Jesus had this conversation with Pharisees. Now you and I are having it, over the politicians (publicans) you oust out of your fellowship. This isn't even the thread topic, but it is an important one, because you are attacking the very people that would/could do something about the problems facing us. Further? This is the FIFTH time I've asked you what a Christian can do. What CAN we ("they" if you insist) do??? Can you answer or do you just condemn and point fingers? Do you know who else does only that??? Do you? Who do YOU want to be like? Do you see my corrections and posts as condemning? Is 'grow up' an accusation before God? :nono: It is a biblical correction and rebuke.
You did a pretty good job of describing what libertarianism stands for a few pages back (non aggression principle, etc.), how come you won't contribute to the thread by continuing to show that libertarian ideology, i.e. "What people do with their body is their own business!" is good for society?He thinks he has "enemies".
Our Hero...
Nooo....Actually, I brought up one fact to correct one (of many, probably) of your assumptions .Regarding continued contributions I had intended to but you made it clear that you were only here to perform for others as opposed to having any real discussion. Now, this is not anything new as it fits the same MO you had when I frequented this forum years ago....You notice I didn't pay much attention to you then either
Which is totally cool...Now I'm watching you cavort clownishly across the face of the internet too. Please continue, and make sure everyone has a Hall Pass.
aCultureWarrior said:
No, your fellow libertarians "despise" people who try to take away their sinful "freedoms" and "liberties".
Every 4 years there's a Presidential election, and as well as voting for President, you can vote for representatives from your respective State that go to Congress. When they are elected and sworn into public office...now pass close attention to this next part....they pass laws, i.e. "legislate".
Depending on that legislation, certain things are allowed or not allowed (i.e. criminalized). Things that are allowed (legal) are abortion. Since libertarian ideology legislates that a woman has a right to do with her body as she pleases, there have been over 60 MILLION unborn babies surgiclaly killed in the womb in less than a 50 year period. With abortion drugs appearing on the scene several years back, add millions more to that number.
Homosexuality has also been legalizied and what was known as that "infamous crime against nature" is now being accepted throughout society. Besides the act of homosexuality being extremely deadly, homosexual activists have made an agenda that involves permeating every institution in society (government, the Church, the military, Education, the media, youth mentor groups, marriage, the family) to promote their evil Godless agenda.
Now if you'd read "Civil Government: The Neglected Ministry"
you'd know that government can't do the job of promoting decency and hence God's Word alone, it must be done through the two other institutions that God created for the governance of man: the family and the Church.
As the article states "Neglect one institution and you inevitably impair the functioning of the other two,..."
hence the family and Church both in dissaray (fatherless homes, rampant crime, unbiblical teaching, i.e. 'gay Christianity') and all three of God's institutions that He created for the governance of man are failing.
So now that you've been given a quick lesson in "legislating" and thus knowing the importance of civil government and how important it is for people who actually love God and their neighbor to vote in God-fearing men and women into public office, you can quit your phony act and join TomO and okdoser in promoting libertarianism, and explain why it's so important for a nation that ideology like that is "legislated".
No, your fellow libertarians "despise" people who try to take away their sinful "freedoms" and "liberties".
It's your lucky day and since you refuse to read and discuss "Civil Government: The Neglected Ministry", I'm going to give you a quick lesson in voting (i.e. legislating).
Every 4 years there's a Presidential election, and as well as voting for President, you can vote for representatives from your respective State that go to Congress. When they are elected and sworn into public office...now pass close attention to this next part....they pass laws, i.e. "legislate".
Depending on that legislation, certain things are allowed or not allowed (i.e. criminalized). Things that are allowed (legal) are abortion. Since libertarian ideology legislates that a woman has a right to do with her body as she pleases, there have been over 60 MILLION unborn babies surgiclaly killed in the womb in less than a 50 year period. With abortion drugs appearing on the scene several years back, add millions more to that number.
Homosexuality has also been legalizied and what was known as that "infamous crime against nature" is now being accepted throughout society. Besides the act of homosexuality being extremely deadly, homosexual activists have made an agenda that involves permeating every institution in society (government, the Church, the military, Education, the media, youth mentor groups, marriage, the family) to promote their evil Godless agenda.
Now if you'd read "Civil Government: The Neglected Ministry"
you'd know that government can't do the job of promoting decency and hence God's Word alone, it must be done through the two other institutions that God created for the governance of man: the family and the Church.
As the article states "Neglect one institution and you inevitably impair the functioning of the other two,..."
hence the family and Church both in dissaray (fatherless homes, rampant crime, unbiblical teaching, i.e. 'gay Christianity') and all three of God's institutions that He created for the governance of man are failing.
So now that you've been given a quick lesson in "legislating" and thus knowing the importance of civil government and how important it is for people who actually love God and their neighbor to vote in God-fearing men and women into public office, you can quit your phony act and join TomO and okdoser in promoting libertarianism, and explain why it's so important for a nation that ideology like that is "legislated".
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My apologies, I would like it very much if you, Lon and okdoser ardently defended libertarian doctrine so that we can have a real discussion on what is better for society: Libertarian doctrine and hence laws, or Judeo-Christian doctrine and hence laws.
Surprise surprise, my little libertarian friends wisely choose not to defend libertariani docdtrine, i.e. the movement that founded the North American Man Boy Love Asscoiation. (And who says libertarians don't know their limitations when it comes to debate?).
Great momments in libertarian history: NAMBLA founder identifies as "libertarian" (them homosexuals, they just love their little boys).
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