Why Evolution is real science - let's settle this "debate"!

[genuineoriginal]

Great! What are the equations that define this conversion?
Still hoping for the equations that relate God's word to mass and energy.
If you cannot provide equations showing how words are converted to mass and energy it can be noting other than a special pleading.

I am pretty sure that the first person to change friction into fire did not need James Joule to provide him with the thermodynamic formula.

we have the theory of gravity instead of the law of gravity. When we say theory is science we are acknowledging that our knowledge of gravity is incomplete. Scientists well know that their knowledge is incomplete in many areas so work continues.

Even though you know that scientific knowledge is incomplete, you demand complete knowledge about how God is able to create energy and mass using nothing more than His Word? :chuckle:

Solar energy is the obvious answer. Energy from the sun. It is all the rage today.

Please replicate what Jesus did by transforming solar energy into twelve baskets full of pieces of loaves and fish during the time it takes you to break apart five loaves and two fishes with your bare hands.
:thumb:

 

[genuineoriginal]

The supernatural, by definition, is unobservable and untestable.

Are you making up definitions now?

Supernatural means unexplainable by natural law or phenomena, not unobservable.

supernatural
of, relating to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal.​

There are many observations of the supernatural.
Since they are unexplainable by natural law and phenomena, scientists cannot find a way to test them using natural law and phenomena.

 

[Silent Hunter]

Really? You actually bothered to read all of that? x2

I'm now three weeks closer to death. x3

Giving up smoking and drinking may help you at least break even . x4

Having been raised in a fundamentalist christian household, I'm more than a little familiar with the "god of the bible". In a "broader discussion" christians tend toward special pleading and "My-personal-preferred-concept-of-deity can do anything", which no amount of reasoned discussion can defeat.

Having been raised in a Christian household, I present evidence for what I believe when asked.

We all believe some rather bizarre things. I believed I could actually have rational discussions with genuineoriginal and JudgingRightly. Silly me.

See what I mean?

No. You are involved in a metaphysical discussion regarding presuppositions. It's no surprise that very little of it can be exposed to experimentation.

The natural can be shown to exist... the supernatural (metaphysical) lacks that quality.

Well, then it's a good thing I never said that in relation to genuineoriginal's misunderstanding of the FLoT, isn't it?

And yet you elevate your assertion as if it holds some special place. What evidence do you have that matter has always existed?

I've never claimed matter always existed.

 

[CabinetMaker]

I am pretty sure that the first person to change friction into fire did not need James Joule to provide him with the thermodynamic formula.

Fair enough.

Even though you know that scientific knowledge is incomplete, you demand complete knowledge about how God is able to create energy and mass using nothing more than His Word? :chuckle:{/quote]You made a specific statement. I was testing your understanding of what you said. Since you have backed away from your original clam there is really nothing more to be said other than that you do not understand thermodynamics well enough to attempt to explain God's interaction with His creation using the laws of thermodynamics. Which also provides me with the answer to my original question regarding your credentials.

Please replicate what Jesus did by transforming solar energy into twelve baskets full of pieces of loaves and fish during the time it takes you to break apart five loaves and two fishes with your bare hands.
:thumb:

Ah, there is the rub. E=mc^2 gave us the atomic bomb. It took a huge amount of research to get from an equation to a working bomb. We have an equation that relates mass and energy. We do not have the understanding for all applications of that relationship. In other words, Jesus is the Son of God and has access to knowledge that we have not yet even conceived of.

 

[Stripe]

Giving up smoking and drinking may help you at least break even .

There's no hope for me then.

The natural can be shown to exist... the supernatural (metaphysical) lacks that quality.

Which is a silly assertion, of course.

I've never claimed matter always existed.

The "first law" says matter has existed forever, in one form or another.

 

[genuineoriginal]

You made a specific statement. I was testing your understanding of what you said. Since you have backed away from your original clam there is really nothing more to be said other than that you do not understand thermodynamics well enough to attempt to explain God's interaction with His creation using the laws of thermodynamics.

I never made the claim that God's interaction with His creation uses the laws of thermodynamics.
Silent Hunter made that claim in this exchange:

MATTER CANNOT BE CREATED

Matter was created.
Matter did not exist before it was created.

So, do you disagree with the First Law of Thermodynamics?

And we saw how that exchange went.

Ah, there is the rub. E=mc^2 gave us the atomic bomb. It took a huge amount of research to get from an equation to a working bomb. We have an equation that relates mass and energy. We do not have the understanding for all applications of that relationship. In other words, Jesus is the Son of God and has access to knowledge that we have not yet even conceived of.

You claimed that Jesus accessed solar energy in order to create pieces of loaves and fish.
I claimed that Jesus used the same supernatural means that God used to create the Sun (where our solar energy comes from) in order to create pieces of loaves and fish.

Colossians 1:16 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:​

 

[genuineoriginal]

We all believe some rather bizarre things. I believed I could actually have rational discussions with genuineoriginal and JudgingRightly. Silly me.

It was silly of you to think you are rational enough to have rational discussions.
:chuckle:

 

[Stripe]

Silent Hunter made that claim in this exchange:

Matter cannot be created.

There's another example.

 

[CabinetMaker]

I never made the claim that God's interaction with His creation uses the laws of thermodynamics.
Silent Hunter made that claim in this exchange:



And we saw how that exchange went.


You claimed that Jesus accessed solar energy in order to create pieces of loaves and fish.
I claimed that Jesus used the same supernatural means that God used to create the Sun (where our solar energy comes from) in order to create pieces of loaves and fish.

Colossians 1:16 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:​

Both claims carry equal weight as neither is definitive based on our current understanding of how the universe works.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Both claims carry equal weight as neither is definitive based on our current understanding of how the universe works.

My understand of how the universe works includes a Creator, so you can guess which claim I think carries more weight.
:wave2:

 

[CabinetMaker]

My understand of how the universe works includes a Creator, so you can guess which claim I think carries more weight.
:wave2:

Does your understanding God preclude His ability to use sun light as an energy source to create bread and fish?

 

[genuineoriginal]

Does your understanding God preclude His ability to use sun light as an energy source to create bread and fish?

God does have the ability to use sun light as an energy source to create bread and fish.
It is a natural process God set up called photosynthesis, but there are additional steps that must be taken to change the energy from the sun into bread and fish.

However, photosynthesis and the rest of the natural processes take a longer amount of time than it took to create the sun, so it is a safe assumption that God used the same means to create the bread and fish to feed the five thousand as He used to create the sun.

 

[Silent Hunter]

What evidence do you have that matter has always existed?

I've never claimed matter always existed.

You can make anyone seem to say anything when you quote them out of context. I made this statement in regard to the FLoT:

Obviously the "first law" says matter has existed forever, in one form or another.

Any quote you find where I say, "matter cannot be created (or destroyed) is in reference to the FLoT and should be adequately clear to anyone without an axe to grind (re: Stripe, genuineoriginal). The FLoT says matter (and energy) cannot be created or destroyed, I didn't say it but I do happen to agree with it.

I never made the claim that God's interaction with His creation uses the laws of thermodynamics.

And yet you argued vigorously how your-personal-preferred-concept-of-deity didn't violate the FLoT. :kookoo:

And we saw how that exchange went.

Yes, we did. You were exposed as a complete and total moron having absolutely no understanding of thermodynamics.

In any disagreement, christians tend toward special pleading and "My-personal-preferred-concept-of-deity can do anything", which no amount of reasoned discussion can defeat.

 

[Silent Hunter]

We all believe some rather bizarre things. I believed I could actually have rational discussions with genuineoriginal and JudgingRightly. Silly me.

It was silly of you to think you are rational enough to have rational discussions.

Yeah, it was foolish of me to believe a person who thinks special pleading his-personal-preferred-concept-of-deity into existence constitutes rationality.

 

[CabinetMaker]

God does have the ability to use sun light as an energy source to create bread and fish.
It is a natural process God set up called photosynthesis, but there are additional steps that must be taken to change the energy from the sun into bread and fish.

However, photosynthesis and the rest of the natural processes take a longer amount of time than it took to create the sun, so it is a safe assumption that God used the same means to create the bread and fish to feed the five thousand as He used to create the sun.

Please describe the means that he used.

 

[Stripe]

I do happen to agree with it.

So you think matter has existed forever.

 

[Silent Hunter]

So you think matter has existed forever.

The FLoT says mass (matter)/energy in a closed system cannot be created or destroyed, only changed from one form to the other, which would suggest mass (matter)/energy in the closed system of the Universe has existed forever. This isn't my claim, it is the FLoT; I happen to agree with it.

 

[Stripe]

This isn't my claim, it is the FLoT; I happen to agree with it.

I'll take that as a "yes." lain:

 

[Silent Hunter]

But you're overreaching by declaring Christians "stupid" because they don't agree with your assertion that matter and energy have always existed.

Well, then it's a good thing I never said that in relation to genuineoriginal's misunderstanding of the FLoT, isn't it?

And yet you elevate your assertion as if it holds some special place. What evidence do you have that matter has always existed?

I've never claimed matter always existed, that honor belongs to the FLoT. Feel free to falsify the FLoT... take all the time you need. (FYI, just like scientific theories, scientific laws are falsifiable.)

And yet you elevate your assertion as if it holds some special place. What evidence do you have that matter has always existed?

I've never claimed matter always existed.

At this point Stripe and genuineoriginal quote me out of context and get caught.

You can make anyone seem to say anything when you quote them out of context.

Any quote you find where I say, "matter cannot be created (or destroyed) is in reference to the FLoT and should be adequately clear to anyone without an axe to grind. The FLoT says matter (and energy) cannot be created or destroyed, I didn't say it but I do happen to agree with it.

So you think matter has existed forever.

The FLoT says mass (matter)/energy in a closed system cannot be created or destroyed, only changed from one form to the other, which would suggest mass (matter)/energy in the closed system of the Universe has existed forever. This isn't my claim, it is the FLoT; I happen to agree with it.

I'll take that as a "yes."

Take it in whatever way makes you feel smug and a little better about yourself and your self-imposed religious delusion(s).

Feel free to falsify the FLoT... take all the time you need.

 

[CabinetMaker]

This conversation has gone rather far afield. Maybe we can take a moment to refocus it. As I understand the way this is developed, the claim from the creationist stand point is that because of entropy, evolution is not possible as the energy in a closed system will move towards its lowest potential. It seems to me that the problem with that idea is the notion of a closed system. If you are using the Earth as the system and define the boundary as the upper atmosphere, the Earth is not a closed system. Both energy and mass pass through that boundary. That means that evolution is possible as energy is added to the system. Entropy would be very different with this open system.

A boundary could be redrawn to include the sun. This really wouldn't change things as this boundary also results in an open system but it now includes the primary energy source. With the amount of energy available from the sun, it is easily possible to have chemical reactions find more order instead of less.

To me, the long and short of it, is that thermodynamics is not the best tool for a discussion such as this. That said, there is nothing that indicates that evolution violates the laws of thermodynamics. The sun provides sufficient energy, about 1.4kW/m^2, to keep the system working.

By all means, please feel free to refine or refute as you wish.