Why Calvinist, Catholics, Others, Do NOT Have Saving Faith

[meshak]

It seems that intojoy is one of the most vicious and hate filled posters.

 

[God's Truth]

1.) the Scriptures say "The Church in..." Implying a singular location/organization.

The Church is the body of Christ and the saved are put in Christ and part of his body.

2.) What evidence do you have to support that there were no churches like the Catholic Church?

The fact that Catholic priests are called 'father' and Jesus says do not call your brother in Christ 'father'. The fact that we are told not make statues and bow to them and the Catholics do that. The fact that the bronze snake that Moses made was destroyed because the Israelites burned incense to it, and Catholics burn incense to the cross and statues. The fact that we are told that Jesus is the mediator, but the Catholics say Mary is one too, and other such things.

3.) How are the practices of Catholics "against God's Truth?"

See what I have written in #2. There are things too like a curtain or door veiling the priest and people confessing sins to him. About forbidding people to marry. Donating money for prayers and candle lighting.

4.) The letters were passed around, yes. But there was no way that they all could have accessed them within a year, and study them. Also, what "books" did they have?

They had the Old Testament. The Old Testament is prophecies of Jesus and the New Testament is prophecies revealed. They also had the book of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and probably other books we did not have, and probably many more letters, and they had the apostles themselves preaching to them in person.

5.) I am not questioning the Bible; I am questioning you. How do you, God's Truth, know the Bible is authoritative?

Different people and denominations gave personal statements about the books, but they were only commenting on the books and letters that the first Christians used from the beginning. They had only acknowledged those books early Christian communities already accepted as scripture.

The believers from the beginning used these books and letters from the start. That is what determined these books as scripture.

 

[God's Truth]

Ok. Cool!

I will try to make that thread today, or for sure within the next couple of days.

I was just wondering, what does your screen name mean? It is very unique.

 

[God's Truth]

Then why didn't you answer my questions about when the books of the New Testament were written and which ones were used in 43 A.D.?

The Bible doesn't tell us exactly when they were written. We cannot know for sure. We know that the first generation of Christians had books and letters, for that is to whom the letters were written. They also had the Old Testament, and the Apostles themselves to teach them, and those approved to teach, some also had the gift of tongues and the gift of prophecy.

Sure. That will work. But I will try to focus my discussion with you.

I have seen things degenerate quickly with some threads and it gets down to name-calling, loss of reason, and meanness pretty fast sometimes.
Not that it will. But, well, that is a possibility.

That is true. It could happen. I hope that it will not. It usually goes down for me when I get told I am not saved. I do not tell people they are not saved, unless they say it to me, for they have so judged themselves.

I'll look for your thread. But I gotta go do some chores for a little bit. So maybe in a bit.

Peace.

I will let you know when I start the thread so that you do not have to keep checking the list.

 

[God's Truth]

No I am not. I merely showed that greeting others with a holy kiss is biblical. Paul says so repeatedly.

I'll grant you that in our modern times, depending on where one lives in the world, I suppose, people do that to a greater or lesser degree. Isn't it the French or somewhere where they alway kiss (or semi-kiss) both cheeks of the people that they greet. And both people do that at the same time.

Anyways, clearly it is a biblical practice.

You don't know that because Bible doesn't say where the kiss was....

There is no reason why you should believe the kiss was on the feet! There is no reason since Peter told Cornelius to get up. How is it normal to greet each other with a kiss on the feet?

Doing that is a sign of worship. Don't you think that Cornelius KNEW PETER WAS NOT GOD?

The Bible doesn't say that. You are making that up. The Bible just says it was worship that was condemned.

It doesn't say a "worshipping kiss". You made that up too. That idea is nowhere found in the Bible that I know of. I've never heard of a "worshipping kiss".

I do not make things up. I did not say what you say I said. The Catholics prostrate themselves on the ground and even kiss their popes feet. Their pope should say what Peter said; he should tell them not to do that.

I think you have a preconceived notion that to kiss a person's feet is worship. But the Bible nowhere says that.

Where did you get that idea?

You are starting to make things up to fit your ideas.

The Bible shows that bowing and kissing can be used as signs of affection, love, and respect.

Worshipping a creature is forbidden.

Since nobody believes the Pope is God, there is no worship occurring.

You are simply wrong but you are refusing to admit it.

The Bible disagrees with you:

"As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him." (Acts 10:25 NKJV)

"Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things." (Revelation 22:8 NKJV)

So yeah. That is a pretty big "if, and or but".

Your interpretation of those verses is clearly wrong because you said they bowed in reverence (implying it wasn't worship).

But the words of the text clearly say that both men bowed with the intent to worship.

Do you deny that?

Peace.

John did not think the angel was God, and Cornelius did not think Peter was God. So your argument does not hold up.

It is simple, the people who were told to get up were not to do that, it was a form used for worship. Catholics have no excuse to do that to their pope.

 

[jsanford108]

The Church is the body of Christ and the saved are put in Christ and part of his body.


The fact that Catholic priests are called 'father' and Jesus says do not call your brother in Christ 'father'. The fact that we are told not make statues and bow to them and the Catholics do that. The fact that the bronze snake that Moses made was destroyed because the Israelites burned incense to it, and Catholics burn incense to the cross and statues. The fact that we are told that Jesus is the mediator, but the Catholics say Mary is one too, and other such things.

See what I have written in #2. There are things too like a curtain or door veiling the priest and people confessing sins to him. About forbidding people to marry. Donating money for prayers and candle lighting.


They had the Old Testament. The Old Testament is prophecies of Jesus and the New Testament is prophecies revealed. They also had the book of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and probably other books we did not have, and probably many more letters, and they had the apostles themselves preaching to them in person.

Different people and denominations gave personal statements about the books, but they were only commenting on the books and letters that the first Christians used from the beginning. They had only acknowledged those books early Christian communities already accepted as scripture.

The believers from the beginning used these books and letters from the start. That is what determined these books as scripture.

You made many points. Obviously, I disagree with you. I have arguments against your points, but if it is okay, may I save them for the thread you start? (I am assuming that the very points you used above, will come into play there. I could address them individually, in such a scenario) To address them here may prove to be a very long post. But, whichever you prefer, I will gladly accept.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

 

[Brother Ducky]

Jesus is the Savior of all men, but you do not enter that grace unless you believe and obey.

If Jesus is the Savior of all men, then by definition, all men are saved.
If no men are saved, then Jesus is the Savior of none.
If some men are saved, then Jesus is the Savior of some.

 

[God's Truth]

If Jesus is the Savior of all men, then by definition, all men are saved.
If no men are saved, then Jesus is the Savior of none.
If some men are saved, then Jesus is the Savior of some.

Jesus is the Savior of all men, but they must believe and obey to enter that grace.

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Romans 5:2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.

 

[God's Truth]

You made many points. Obviously, I disagree with you. I have arguments against your points, but if it is okay, may I save them for the thread you start? (I am assuming that the very points you used above, will come into play there. I could address them individually, in such a scenario) To address them here may prove to be a very long post. But, whichever you prefer, I will gladly accept.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

Thank you, jsanford108. I will start the new thread for sure in a couple of days. I won't be on much tomorrow, I have many things I must do.

 

[meshak]

Thank you, jsanford108. I will start the new thread for sure in a couple of days. I won't be on much tomorrow, I have many things I must do.

see you

 

[Robert Pate]

If Jesus is the Savior of all men, then by definition, all men are saved.
If no men are saved, then Jesus is the Savior of none.
If some men are saved, then Jesus is the Savior of some.

Jesus is the provider of salvation for all men, Hebrews 2:9.
But not all men want to be saved.

 

[beloved57]

Jesus is the provider of salvation for all men, Hebrews 2:9.
But not all men want to be saved.

False teaching, Heb 2:9 doesn't say Jesus is the provider of salvation for all men, that's a lie. You teach that even after Christ tasted death for a person, they are still lost !

 

[Robert Pate]

False teaching, Heb 2:9 doesn't say Jesus is the provider of salvation for all men, that's a lie. You teach that even after Christ tasted death for a person, they are still lost !

You can't seem to read.

"That he (Jesus) by the grace of God should taste death for EVERYONE" Hebrews 2:9.

Salvation has been provided for everyone, but nothing is yours until it is received, John 1:12.

 

[beloved57]

You can't seem to read.

"That he (Jesus) by the grace of God should taste death for EVERYONE" Hebrews 2:9.

Salvation has been provided for everyone, but nothing is yours until it is received, John 1:12.

Yes you did lie ! Now you wont repent of the lie !

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

The Bible doesn't tell us exactly when they were written. We cannot know for sure. We know that the first generation of Christians had books and letters, for that is to whom the letters were written. They also had the Old Testament, and the Apostles themselves to teach them, and those approved to teach, some also had the gift of tongues and the gift of prophecy.

Is the Bible the only source of information that we have for deciding when the books of the New Testament were written?

I don't think so. Church historians and Scripture scholars, though not infallible, can help us to learn those things.

With all due respect, saying that the Bible doesn't tell us when they were written is avoiding the question.

That is true. It could happen. I hope that it will not. It usually goes down for me when I get told I am not saved. I do not tell people they are not saved, unless they say it to me, for they have so judged themselves.

Well, we can agree to be charitable and resist the temptation to lose civility with each other.

Peace.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

There is no reason why you should believe the kiss was on the feet! There is no reason since Peter told Cornelius to get up. How is it normal to greet each other with a kiss on the feet?

Doing that is a sign of worship.

Well, you wouldn't tell me the dates of the writings of the books of the New Testament because you said the Bible doesn't tell us.

To be consistent with your use of the Bible, can you tell me where the Bible says that a kiss on the feet is a sign of worship?

Don't you think that Cornelius KNEW PETER WAS NOT GOD?

No. Not necessarily. Cornelius was visited by angels in a vision and was afraid.

Tell me, why did the angels who Lot bowed to NOT tell him to get up and quit the false worshipping? Why did they let him worship them? Didn't those angels know that bowing to someone other than God was forbidden?

The only way that story makes sense is if bowing as a sign of respect is ok. And the angels knew that.

I do not make things up. I did not say what you say I said.

I disagree. Unless you can show me in the Bible somewhere where a "worshipping kiss" is forbidden.

If you can't. Then you made that up.

I am sure that you know your Bible better than I do but I just don't remember ever reading about a "worshipping kiss".

Where is that at again?

The Catholics prostrate themselves on the ground and even kiss their popes feet.

Yes. But very rarely over a 2000 year history. It is not the norm and was mostly reserved for cardinals and bishops. And mostly a long time ago.

Their pope should say what Peter said; he should tell them not to do that.

I agree....if worship is occurring. But nobody believes the Pope to be God, so their is no worship involved. So there is no problem.

John did not think the angel was God, and Cornelius did not think Peter was God.

How do you know that? Does the Bible say that?

If you want to be consistent in your use of the Bible, you will have to show me where the Bible says that John and Cornelius did not think they were gods.

Unless you can show me where the Bible says that....you are making that up. That is just your interpretation.

So your argument does not hold up.

Actually, I think it is holding up fine because you are making claims that cannot be found in the Bible.

I could be wrong. But the way to show me is to show me where the Bible says what you are saying.

It is simple, the people who were told to get up were not to do that, it was a form used for worship. Catholics have no excuse to do that to their pope.

The Bible is filled with examples of people bowing and it shows that it was also a form used to show respect....and not worship.

I've already shown you Lot and Jacob with Esau. If I have time I will find some more. There are quite a few.

Peace.

 

[Brother Ducky]

Jesus is the provider of salvation for all men, Hebrews 2:9.
But not all men want to be saved.

So he is in fact the savior of some and not all.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

The Church is the body of Christ and the saved are put in Christ and part of his body.

Amen. Hey GT, as jsanford 108 said, it would be better to address your list of concerns one at a time.

But since this at least the second time you have made quite a long "shotgun pellet" list, I am going to briefly give you a "shotgun pellet" response to some of it.

The fact that Catholic priests are called 'father' and Jesus says do not call your brother in Christ 'father'.

The Bible records approximately 150 times in the New Testament that somebody does that including Zecheriah, Stephen, Paul, Mary....and yes, even Jesus Himself. They were not all confused. (Jesus confused?)

Also, the Bible says the same thing about being called "teacher". Do you have a issue with that as well?

The fact that we are told not make statues and bow to them and the Catholics do that.

Did you miss the fact that God commanded people to make statues several times. Was He confused?

The fact that the bronze snake that Moses made was destroyed because the Israelites burned incense to it, and Catholics burn incense to the cross and statues.

Did you forget the fact that God Himself commanded Moses to make that bronze snake? He commanded it.

Did you forget about Malachi 1:11: "For from the rising of the sun, even to its going down, My name shall be great among the Gentiles; In every place incense shall be offered to My name, And a pure offering; For My name shall be great among the nations,” Says the Lord of hosts."

Does your Church use incense?

If yes, great!

If not, why not?

The fact that we are told that Jesus is the mediator, but the Catholics say Mary is one too, and other such things.

You said that you haven't failed to answer my questions. But I just remembered that you haven't answered this one that I asked earlier:

How is one person suffering for the sake of another (like Paul did) and how is one person praying for another (like Paul repeatedly stated), and how is sharing the Gospel with someone,.....how are those NOT mediating?

See what I have written in #2. There are things too like a curtain or door veiling the priest and people confessing sins to him.

John 20:23: "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

About forbidding people to marry.

You are most certainly confused. Nobody but nobody is forbidden to marry. Anyone can get married if they want to.

Some people willing choose to NOT get married and consecrate their lives to God instead.

But this is their own free choice and they know that before they make their decision.

Paul supports people making that choice and living as he did...unmarried. We can read about it in 1st Corinthinans 7.

Donating money for prayers and candle lighting.

Almsgiving is biblical.

They had the Old Testament. The Old Testament is prophecies of Jesus and the New Testament is prophecies revealed. They also had the book of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and probably other books we did not have, and probably many more letters, and they had the apostles themselves preaching to them in person.

Yup. But in an earlier post you claimed that they had a New Testament.

They didn't.

Different people and denominations gave personal statements about the books, but they were only commenting on the books and letters that the first Christians used from the beginning.

Like starting when?

They had only acknowledged those books early Christian communities already accepted as scripture.

The believers from the beginning used these books and letters from the start. That is what determined these books as scripture.

So how about 43 A.D. just for an example. What books and letters were they using then?

Peace.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

I will try to make that thread today, or for sure within the next couple of days.

I was just wondering, what does your screen name mean? It is very unique.

Uggh. I hate my screen name, just couldn't think of a good one at the time. Bard was a character in J.R.R. Tolkien's "The Hobbit". I love those books and movies!

My preferred screen name is "Bestil Andno" but I don't know if it is possible to change it.

Eh.

Hey, here is a little something to think about that I have stolen from Patrick Madrid:

Let's say we found a note from 150 years ago and it said: "I never said you stole the money."

Could we read it today, and know what that means? Maybe, it looks like it says somebody never said somebody else stole some money.

But there are at least 5 different valid interpretations of those 7 words depending on where the emphasis is placed:

1. I never said you stole the money. (My wife said it, though.)
2. I never said you stole the money. (I thought it, though.)
3. I never said you stole the money. (I said that your son did.)
4. I never said you stole the money. (I said you borrowed it.)
5. I never said you stole the money. (I said you stole the horse.)

5 different valid interpretations of 7 words.

Which do you think is more likely to be misinterpreted...those 7 words or the Bible which was written over the course of thousands of years, by numerous different authors, in several different languages, and in several different genres?

I know, I know...the Holy Spirit can help us to understand the Bible. But the Bible itself even warns us about misunderstanding it and twisting unto our own destruction. (2 Peter 3:16)

Did Jesus leave us in that state? Without being able to be sure of what we are reading?

Just something to think about.

Peace.

 

[Robert Pate]

So he is in fact the savior of some and not all.

God does not impose salvation on anyone. If you want to be saved you will have to come to Christ as a repentant sinner and ask him to save you, Romans 10:13.