Why aren’t ‘the ungodly’ the ‘elect’ when they’re the ones for whom Christ died (Rom

[TestedandTried]

zzub replied above:
When was the powerful delusion sent? Presuming that God did not predestine the refusal and it was mans own choice to refuse, it seems that God interacts with man throughout; not predestining all things prior to the foundation of he world.

I didn't directly address these points you raise and not sure I can skillfully do so, but I offer the Romans passage for insight...

Romans 1:28-29:
Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice.

Romans 1:24 as well as Romans 1:26 speak of God giving mankind over to their sin as well. In light of these passages I'd say there is further support of the idea that the Thessalonians passages I cited speak of all people for all time...that is those who are wicked and refuse to turn to God. All have opportunity, I'm convinced, to turn to Him...

For many are called, but few are chosen. ~Matthew 22:14

 

[God's Truth]

Why aren’t ‘the ungodly’ the ‘elect’ when they’re the ones for whom Christ died (Rom 5v6) ?

Because they didn't repent of their sins.

 

[God's Truth]

Heb 2v9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Not just the elect! )

Those who enter that grace have to have living faith, and that is faith with obedience.

 

[God's Truth]

Have you not read:-

Jesus came to save that which was lost.

Jesus came first for the lost sheep of Israel, then when he is crucified all can come to him to be saved.

 

[zzub]

My "view" is that even the Calvinists have the right to NOT be falsely accused, especially by someone who also preaches conditional salvation. It's a matter of fairness. I immediately saw you were unfair, so I addressed that.

Okay, thanks.

 

[zzub]

I suppose one could say that these passages speak to the end time peoples since it is addressing end times in general. To my way of thinking the passages take a shift to encompass all peoples/unbelievers for all times??? But, as I say, there may be differing views and we/current readers and believers must heed this as a very strong warning from going astray into unbelief.

I believe the predestination passages. I also believe in freewill. One of the first freewill exercises might be Adam and Eve presented with the tree of knowledge of good and evil which was forbidden fruit. Also, God admonished Cain for his ungodly attitude when Cain was downcast because his offering wasn't considered acceptable...God said sin is crouching at the door and you must master it. I'll offer one more example, this from Israel. Before crossing into Canaan the Israelites were pronounced the Blessings and Curses of the Lord. In the end it was declared in their hearing...
Deuteronomy 30:19-20:
19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

As for predestination...
It would appear that as we have freewill that we have it, but God knows in advance how we shall exercise it.
I'm sure you are aware of the Romans example, but here it is again...

Romans 9:16-24:
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Now after citing the above Romans passages perhaps I need to reverse myself on my postulate that we all have freewill, but God knows in advance how we will exercise it. One can go back another step to true inception of the plan for us and say it was all God's will and mercy which determined who are the elect...predestination. Our freewill may be considered a misnomer???

Many thanks for your detailed post.