ECT Who is the 'Rock', Peter or Christ?

[Hobie]

Here is the text in question:

Matthew 16:13-18
13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Now take a look at what scripture has that shows us clearly who it is:

Deuteronomy 32:3-4 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Deuteronomy 32:15,18 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation……Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.


What does this say…?

2 Samuel 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God?


What does David say?…

Psalms 18:2 The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.

Psalms 18:31 For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?

Psalms 95:1 O come, let us sing unto the LORD: let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation.


and Isaiah:

Isaiah 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.


And we read in Matthew:

Matthew 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

And Luke:

Luke 20:17 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?

And we read what Paul wrote:

Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

1 Corinthians 3:9-11 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

And from Peter himself:

1 Peter 2:4-6 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

Acts 4:8-12 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel, If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole; Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

The Bible is clear and in complete harmony that Christ is the only rock and we are but stones which are built upon him. Now perhaps the best evidence that Christ did not appoint Peter as the “rock” on which He would build His church is the fact that none of those who heard Christ upon this occasion— not even Peter— construed His words in that way, either during the time that Christ was on earth or later. Had Christ made Peter chief among the disciples, they would not have been involved in repeated arguments afterward about which of them “should be accounted the greatest”.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Peter is petros, but Jesus is petra.

Peter is a stone, but Christ is the rock.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Here is the text in question:

Matthew 16:13-18
13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Alfred Edersheim explains the meaning of the "rock" here:

"Perhaps it might be expressed in this somewhat clumsy paraphrase: 'Thou art Peter (Petros)--a Stone or Rock--and upon this Petra--the Rock, the Petrine--will I found My Church...so Christ promised that He would build His Church on the Petrine in Peter--on his faith and confession."​

 

[Bradley D]

The Rock.

"Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."

 

[God's Truth]

Here is the text in question:

Matthew 16:13-18
13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Now take a look at what scripture has that shows us clearly who it is:

Deuteronomy 32:3-4 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Deuteronomy 32:15,18 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation……Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.


What does this say…?

2 Samuel 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God?


What does David say?…

Psalms 18:2 The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.

Psalms 18:31 For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?

Psalms 95:1 O come, let us sing unto the LORD: let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation.


and Isaiah:

Isaiah 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.


And we read in Matthew:

Matthew 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

And Luke:

Luke 20:17 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?

And we read what Paul wrote:

Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

1 Corinthians 3:9-11 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

And from Peter himself:

1 Peter 2:4-6 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

Acts 4:8-12 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel, If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole; Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

The Bible is clear and in complete harmony that Christ is the only rock and we are but stones which are built upon him. Now perhaps the best evidence that Christ did not appoint Peter as the “rock” on which He would build His church is the fact that none of those who heard Christ upon this occasion— not even Peter— construed His words in that way, either during the time that Christ was on earth or later. Had Christ made Peter chief among the disciples, they would not have been involved in repeated arguments afterward about which of them “should be accounted the greatest”.

That was a really enlightened post.

I want to say too that Jesus says the gates of Hades will not overcome it is about Jesus when he went to hell/prison/Hades. The gates of Hades could not keep him there.

 

[Idolater]

Petros is Peter and petra is Christ, this is the theory right now. Petros is the masculine form of petra, which means rock. Because Peter is a man, petra was changed to Petros instead, and petra in Matthew 16:18 means Christ Jesus instead---you know, because Jesus is a man, that's why petra was left as a feminine noun, because it refers to Christ, a man; and Petros refers to Peter, another man, and that's why Petros is the masculine form of petra, which is feminie, it's because petra refers to the Lord Jesus Christ is why petra was left feminine, because Jesus was also a man, and Peter was a man, and that's why Petros is masculine, because Peter was a man, and that's why petra is left feminine, because petra refers to Jesus, not Peter, because Peter and Jesus were both men, that's why Petros is masculine, and petra is feminine.

And nevermind that the conversation took place in a Hebraic tongue and not in Greek. Nevermind that.

Peter, and Peter's Trinitarian confession, is the rock in Matthew 16:18. And Catholicism is therefore Christianity, plainly. Trinitarian, ancient, and built upon St. Peter, the Pope is Peter's successor, just like how Trump is Washington's successor, nothing more mystical than that obvious historical fact. Francis succeeds Peter like how the Donald succeeds George.

 

[DAN P]

Petros is Peter and petra is Christ, this is the theory right now. Petros is the masculine form of petra, which means rock. Because Peter is a man, petra was changed to Petros instead, and petra in Matthew 16:18 means Christ Jesus instead---you know, because Jesus is a man, that's why petra was left as a feminine noun, because it refers to Christ, a man; and Petros refers to Peter, another man, and that's why Petros is the masculine form of petra, which is feminie, it's because petra refers to the Lord Jesus Christ is why petra was left feminine, because Jesus was also a man, and Peter was a man, and that's why Petros is masculine, because Peter was a man, and that's why petra is left feminine, because petra refers to Jesus, not Peter, because Peter and Jesus were both men, that's why Petros is masculine, and petra is feminine.

And nevermind that the conversation took place in a Hebraic tongue and not in Greek. Nevermind that.

Peter, and Peter's Trinitarian confession, is the rock in Matthew 16:18. And Catholicism is therefore Christianity, plainly. Trinitarian, ancient, and built upon St. Peter, the Pope is Peter's successor, just like how Trump is Washington's successor, nothing more mystical than that obvious historical fact. Francis succeeds Peter like how the Donald succeeds George.

Hi and the Greek word I WILL BUILD / OIKODOMEO is in the Greek FUTURE TENSE , ACTIVE VOICE and in the INDICATIVE MOOD !!

This is what many call the NEAR VIEW as that is what Matt 16:18 refers to !!

The FAR VIEW is Future because Israel was set aside a written in 1 Cor 12:13-15 and the Far View will be , ar the SECOND COMING of Christ to save Israel !!

The ACTIVE VOICE means that the subject , CHRIST will build his EKKLESIA / ASSEMBLY !!

The INDICATIVE MOOD means it is a FACT !!

There is no such thing as APOSTOLIC SECESSION , just as there is no Greek word for PURGATORY !!

DAN P

 

[Aimiel]

When Jesus renamed Simon and called him Peter (rock) He was signifying that the revelation that God had given him of Christ being The Christ, The Son of The Living God is the 'rock' that His Church is built upon. We all have revelation of Him being our Saviour and our God, because God granted us that revelation or we'd still be lost. His Kingdom is in us, the believers. We have this 'rock' of revelation knowledge and we come into closer relationship with Him with more and more revelation of His Truth every single day.

 

[Idolater]

When Jesus renamed Simon and called him Peter (rock) He was signifying that the revelation that God had given him of Christ being The Christ, The Son of The Living God is the 'rock' that His Church is built upon. We all have revelation of Him being our Saviour and our God, because God granted us that revelation or we'd still be lost. His Kingdom is in us, the believers. We have this 'rock' of revelation knowledge and we come into closer relationship with Him with more and more revelation of His Truth every single day.

And, He named, Simon, "ROCK". Peter. Petros. Rock.

 

[JudgeRightly]

And, He named, Simon, "ROCK". Peter. Petros. Rock.

And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. - Matthew 16:18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...p;version=NKJV

Jesus didn't say, "upon this petros I will build My church."

He said, "you are petros, and on this PETRA I will build my church, and the Gates of Hades shall not prevail against it."

If it was truly Peter, Jesus would have had made a huge mistake, as Peter crumbled before the gates of Hades when he denied that he knew Christ three times before the rooster crowed. In other words, Peter was not a very good foundation to build a church upon.

Now... Jesus on the other hand, he is called the rock, PETRA, of offense.

Jesus made the distinction between Peter and Himself in Matthew 16:18, and established HIMSELF as the foundation for His church, because no other foundation would do.

Would you agree that Peter was not a good foundation to build a church upon, as compared to Jesus?

 

[Idolater]

And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. - Matthew 16:18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...p;version=NKJV

Jesus didn't say, "upon this petros I will build My church."

He said, "you are petros, and on this PETRA I will build my church, and the Gates of Hades shall not prevail against it."

If it was truly Peter, Jesus would have had made a huge mistake, as Peter crumbled before the gates of Hades when he denied that he knew Christ three times before the rooster crowed. In other words, Peter was not a very good foundation to build a church upon.

Now... Jesus on the other hand, he is called the rock, PETRA, of offense.

Jesus made the distinction between Peter and Himself in Matthew 16:18, and established HIMSELF as the foundation for His church, because no other foundation would do.

Would you agree that Peter was not a good foundation to build a church upon, as compared to Jesus?

You mean to say Peter wasn't perfect? You don't say. 'News to me. :/

I agree with what I've already said, which is that the Lord Jesus NAMED Simon "ROCK" (which in the midst of this controversy gets minimized even though it is the least controversial thing that we know). And then He said that He'd build His own Church "upon this rock". In the Hebraic Aramaic there isn't the petros /petra distinction, so when this conversation actually occurred, Jesus just said, "You are 'rock', and upon this rock I will build My Church", and from the Apostolic era until the 1500s every Christian believed that He meant Peter and that He meant, "Peter, you are going to be the first supreme pastor of My Church", iow the first pope.

You on the other hand subscribe to a personal theory about the one Christian faith that finds no support in historical facts, but depends upon conspiracies and basically wholesale apostasy that wasn't corrected until something like that the KJV was first published, which is an abridged version of the actual Christian Scripture, and then Dispensationalism was invented based upon the KJV.

If the Lord actually chose Peter to be the first supreme pastor of His Church, iow if I and all of Christian history for 1500 years am right, then you are guilty of second-guessing His judgment. I know this means nothing to you because you reserve zero chance that your view is incorrect, but it'd be irresponsible for me to not point it out to you.

 

[Bright Raven]

Who would you build your church on, Jesus or Peter?

 

[Right Divider]

And nevermind that the conversation took place in a Hebraic tongue and not in Greek. Nevermind that.

And just how, exactly, do you know this?

 

[Right Divider]

If the Lord actually chose Peter to be the first supreme pastor of His Church, iow if I and all of Christian history for 1500 years am right, then you are guilty of second-guessing His judgment. I know this means nothing to you because you reserve zero chance that your view is incorrect, but it'd be irresponsible for me to not point it out to you.

More conjecture based on your bias instead of actual Biblical doctrine.

Peter was one of twelve. Never is there an indication in scripture that "Peter is supreme" compared to the others.

 

[Aimiel]

And, He named, Simon, "ROCK". Peter. Petros. Rock.

It wasn't because he was perfect, better than the other apostles or even steadfast (Peter denied Christ three times); it was because he had received the 'rock' that God is building The Body of Christ with: revelation knowledge. If we become a member of The Body of Christ it is because of that revelation inside of us: the knowledge that Jesus is The Christ, The Son of The Living God; not because we think of some guy who was chosen to be an apostle by Jesus might be above his brethren by being given a nickname by The Lord. It's because God gave us our own rock: revelation of Who Christ is. He is our Lord, God and Saviour. Without each and every single member of His Body, He is incomplete.

 

[Trump Gurl]

Who is the 'Rock', Peter or Christ?

Peter.

Peter is petros, but Jesus is petra.
Peter is a stone, but Christ is the rock.

Wrong.

You gave a great example of how just a little bit of knowledge is dangerous.

Greek scholars, even non-Catholic ones, admit that the words petros and petra were synonyms in first century Greek. They meant “small stone” and “large rock” in some ancient Greek poetry, centuries before the time of Christ, but that distinction had disappeared from the language by the time Matthew’s Gospel was rendered in Greek. The difference in meaning can only be found in Attic Greek, but the New Testament was written in Koine Greek—an entirely different dialect.

Next, we must get behind the Greek to the Aramaic. Aramaic was the language Jesus and the apostles and all the Jews in Palestine spoke. It was the common language of the place. Most of the New Testament was written in Greek, but not all. Matthew was written in Aramaic. We know that Jesus spoke Aramaic because some of his words are preserved for us in the Gospels. Look at Matthew 27:46, where he says from the cross, ‘Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?’ That isn’t Greek; it’s Aramaic, and it means, ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’

In Paul’s epistles, four times in Galatians and four times in 1 Corinthians, we have the Aramaic form of Simon’s new name preserved for us. In our English Bibles it comes out as Cephas. That isn’t Greek. That’s a transliteration of the Aramaic word Kepha (rendered as Kephas in its Hellenistic form).

And what does Kepha mean? It means a rock, the same as petra. It doesn’t mean a little stone or a pebble. What Jesus said to Simon in Matthew 16:18 was this: ‘You are Kepha, and on this kepha I will build my Church.’ When you understand what the Aramaic says, you see that Jesus was equating Simon and the rock; he wasn’t contrasting them.

For a few moments the missionary seemed stumped. Then it occurred to him.

Also, to say that Jesus is downplaying Peter flies in the face of the context. Jesus is installing Peter as a form of chief steward or prime minister under the King of Kings by giving him the keys to the kingdom. As can be seen in Isaiah 22:22, kings in the Old Testament appointed a chief steward to serve under them in a position of great authority to rule over the inhabitants of the kingdom. Jesus quotes almost verbatim from this passage in Isaiah, and so it is clear what he has in mind. He is raising Peter up as a father figure to the household of faith (Isa. 22:21), to lead them and guide the flock (John 21:15-17). This authority of the prime minister under the king was passed on from one man to another down through the ages by the giving of the keys, which were worn on the shoulder as a sign of authority. Likewise, the authority of Peter has been passed down for 2000 years by means of the papacy. There you go.
(My answer is populated in part by this paper: LINK)

 

[Bright Raven]

Peter.



Wrong.

You gave a great example of how just a little bit of knowledge is dangerous.

Greek scholars, even non-Catholic ones, admit that the words petros and petra were synonyms in first century Greek. They meant “small stone” and “large rock” in some ancient Greek poetry, centuries before the time of Christ, but that distinction had disappeared from the language by the time Matthew’s Gospel was rendered in Greek. The difference in meaning can only be found in Attic Greek, but the New Testament was written in Koine Greek—an entirely different dialect.

Next, we must get behind the Greek to the Aramaic. Aramaic was the language Jesus and the apostles and all the Jews in Palestine spoke. It was the common language of the place. Most of the New Testament was written in Greek, but not all. Matthew was written in Aramaic. We know that Jesus spoke Aramaic because some of his words are preserved for us in the Gospels. Look at Matthew 27:46, where he says from the cross, ‘Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?’ That isn’t Greek; it’s Aramaic, and it means, ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’

In Paul’s epistles, four times in Galatians and four times in 1 Corinthians, we have the Aramaic form of Simon’s new name preserved for us. In our English Bibles it comes out as Cephas. That isn’t Greek. That’s a transliteration of the Aramaic word Kepha (rendered as Kephas in its Hellenistic form).

And what does Kepha mean? It means a rock, the same as petra. It doesn’t mean a little stone or a pebble. What Jesus said to Simon in Matthew 16:18 was this: ‘You are Kepha, and on this kepha I will build my Church.’ When you understand what the Aramaic says, you see that Jesus was equating Simon and the rock; he wasn’t contrasting them.

For a few moments the missionary seemed stumped. Then it occurred to him.

Also, to say that Jesus is downplaying Peter flies in the face of the context. Jesus is installing Peter as a form of chief steward or prime minister under the King of Kings by giving him the keys to the kingdom. As can be seen in Isaiah 22:22, kings in the Old Testament appointed a chief steward to serve under them in a position of great authority to rule over the inhabitants of the kingdom. Jesus quotes almost verbatim from this passage in Isaiah, and so it is clear what he has in mind. He is raising Peter up as a father figure to the household of faith (Isa. 22:21), to lead them and guide the flock (John 21:15-17). This authority of the prime minister under the king was passed on from one man to another down through the ages by the giving of the keys, which were worn on the shoulder as a sign of authority. Likewise, the authority of Peter has been passed down for 2000 years by means of the papacy. There you go.
(My answer is populated in part by this paper: LINK)

From. Gotquestions.org

​​​​​​The debate rages over whether “the rock” on which Christ will build His church is Peter, or Peter’s confession that Jesus is “the Christ, the Son of the Living God” (Matthew 16:16). In all honesty, there is no way for us to be 100% sure which view is correct. The grammatical construction allows for either view. The first view is that Jesus was declaring that Peter would be the “rock” on which He would build His church. Jesus appears to be using a play on words. “You are Peter (petros) and on this rock (petra) I will build my church.” Since Peter’s name means rock, and Jesus is going to build His church on a rock – it appears that Christ is linking the two together. God used Peter greatly in the foundation of the church. It was Peter who first proclaimed the Gospel on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:14-47). Peter was also the first to take the Gospel to the Gentiles (Acts 10:1-48). In a sense, Peter was the rock “foundation” of the church.

The other popular interpretation of the rock is that Jesus was referring not to Peter, but to Peter’s confession of faith in verse 16: “You are the Christ, the son of the living God.” Jesus had never explicitly taught Peter and the other disciples the fullness of His identity, and He recognized that God had sovereignly opened Peter’s eyes and revealed to him who Jesus really was. His confession of Christ as Messiah poured forth from him, a heartfelt declaration of Peter’s personal faith in Jesus. It is this personal faith in Christ which is the hallmark of the true Christian. Those who have placed their faith in Christ, as Peter did, are the church. Peter expresses this in 1 Peter 2:4 when he addressed the believers who had been dispersed around the ancient world: “Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.”

At this point, Jesus declares that God had revealed this truth to Peter. The word for “Peter,” Petros, means a small stone (John 1:42). Jesus used a play on words here with petra (“on this rock”) which means a foundation boulder, as in Matthew 7:24, 25 when He described the rock upon which the wise man builds his house. Peter himself uses the same imagery in his first epistle: the church is built of numerous small petros “living stones” (1 Peter 2:5) who, like Peter, confess that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, and those confessions of faith are the bedrock of the church.

In addition, the New Testament makes it abundantly clear that Christ is both the foundation (Acts 4:11, 12; 1 Corinthians 3:11) and the head (Ephesians 5:23) of the church. It is a mistake to think that here He is giving either of those roles to Peter. There is a sense in which the apostles played a foundational role in the building of the church (Ephesians 2:20), but the role of primacy is reserved for Christ alone, not assigned to Peter. So, Jesus’ words here are best interpreted as a simple play on words in that a boulder-like truth came from the mouth of one who was called a small stone. And Christ Himself is called the “chief cornerstone” (1 Peter 2:6, 7). The chief cornerstone of any building was that upon which the building was anchored. If Christ declared Himself to be the cornerstone, how could Peter be the rock upon which the church was built? It is more likely that the believers, of which Peter is one, are the stones which make up the church, anchored upon the Cornerstone, “and he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame” (1 Peter 2:6).

The Roman Catholic Church uses the argument that Peter is the rock to which Jesus referred as evidence that it is the one true church. As we have seen, Peter’s being the rock is not the only valid interpretation of this verse. Even if Peter is the rock in Matthew 16:18, this is meaningless in giving the Roman Catholic Church any authority. Scripture nowhere records Peter being in Rome. Scripture nowhere describes Peter as being supreme over the other apostles. The New Testament does not describe Peter as being the “all authoritative leader” of the early Christian church. Peter was not the first pope, and Peter did not start the Roman Catholic Church. The origin of the Catholic Church is not in the teachings of Peter or any other apostle. If Peter truly was the founder of the Roman Catholic Church, it would be in full agreement with what Peter taught (Acts chapter 2, 1 Peter, 2 Peter).

 

[JudgeRightly]

Peter.

Nope. Guess again.

Wrong.

Actually, he got that part right.

You gave a great example of how just a little bit of knowledge is dangerous.

Greek scholars, even non-Catholic ones, admit that the words petros and petra were synonyms in first century Greek.

So, let's examine this.

When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, [JESUS]“Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?[/JESUS] So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”He said to them, [JESUS]“But who do you say that I am?”[/JESUS]Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”Jesus answered and said to him, [JESUS]“Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”[/JESUS]Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ. - Matthew 16:13-20 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...0&version=NKJV

And the Greek? Let's use Wescott-Hort for this one:

18 καγω δε σοι λεγω οτι συ ει πετρος και επι ταυτη τη πετρα οικοδομησω μου την εκκλησιαν και πυλαι αδου ου κατισχυσουσιν αυτης

Let's pull up Strong's:

Peter, PETROS:

Strong's g4074 - Lexical: Πέτρος - Transliteration: Petros - Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine - Phonetic Spelling: pet'-ros - Definition: "a stone" or "a boulder", Peter, one of the twelve apostles. - Origin: Apparently a primary word; a (piece of) rock (larger than lithos); as a name, Petrus, an apostle. - Usage: Peter, rock. Compare Kephas. - Translated as (count): Peter (137), to Peter (10), of Peter (7), in Peter (1), than Peter (1).

Morphology: N-NMSPart of Speech: - N: Noun Grammatical Categories: - Case N: Nominative - Gender M: Masculine - Number S: Singular

rock, PETRA:

Strong's g4073 - Lexical: πέτρα - Transliteration: petra - Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine - Phonetic Spelling: pet'-ra - Definition: a rock, ledge, cliff, cave, stony ground. - Origin: Feminine of the same as Petros; a (mass of) rock (literally or figuratively). - Usage: rock. - Translated as (count): rock (9), a rock (3), rocks (3).

Morphology: N-DFSPart of Speech: - N: Noun Grammatical Categories: - Case D: Dative - Gender F: Feminine - Number S: Singular

So, already we can see the difference.

PETROS is a masculine noun, and PETRA is feminine.

The fact alone that they are TWO DIFFERENT WORDS already indicate that Jesus is not calling Peter the rock He will build his church on, let alone the fact that their gender are different.

That's one witness that indicates that Peter and the rock are not the same in that verse.

They meant “small stone” and “large rock” in some ancient Greek poetry, centuries before the time of Christ, but that distinction had disappeared from the language by the time Matthew’s Gospel was rendered in Greek. The difference in meaning can only be found in Attic Greek, but the New Testament was written in Koine Greek—an entirely different dialect.

Strong seems to think otherwise.

Next, we must get behind the Greek to the Aramaic. Aramaic was the language Jesus and the apostles and all the Jews in Palestine spoke. It was the common language of the place. Most of the New Testament was written in Greek, but not all. Matthew was written in Aramaic. We know that Jesus spoke Aramaic because some of his words are preserved for us in the Gospels. Look at Matthew 27:46, where he says from the cross, ‘Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?’ That isn’t Greek; it’s Aramaic, and it means, ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’

So, question then is, Why did Jesus use' Peter's Greek name, rather than the aramaic?

Or at the very least, why did Matthew use Petros instead of Cephas?

The answer is that Jesus was making a point that HE HIMSELF is a rock, as stated elsewhere in scripture.

Jesus is the Rock on which the church is built. Not a man, but the God-Man, Jesus Christ.

We see this throughout Jesus' ministry on Earth that He focused on HIMSELF, and rightly so.

This is just one more instance where Jesus is focusing his message on Himself, and since he was talking to Peter, He just used the other greek word for rock to refer to himself.

My witness?

Peter himself.

Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious,you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture, “Behold, I lay in Zion A chief cornerstone, elect, precious, And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, “The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone,”and “A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense.” They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed. - 1 Peter 2:4-8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...8&version=NKJV

Peter calls Jesus the "Rock of offense," as in, PETRA SKANDALOU.

Jesus is the PETRA He referred to in Matthew 16:18.

Not Peter.

That's two witnesses that say Peter is not the rock on which the church is built.

In Paul’s epistles, four times in Galatians and four times in 1 Corinthians, we have the Aramaic form of Simon’s new name preserved for us. In our English Bibles it comes out as Cephas. That isn’t Greek. That’s a transliteration of the Aramaic word Kepha (rendered as Kephas in its Hellenistic form).

And what does Kepha mean? It means a rock,

See above.

Jesus was making a play on words to focus what He was saying upon Himself. not Peter.

the same as petra.

Well, no, both words, petros and petra mean rock, of course,. Petros, however, means "stone" or "boulder," whereas petra means a cliff, ledge, cave, or stony ground.

It doesn’t mean a little stone or a pebble.

Petros means a stone or boulder. That's what it means.

Petra means something different.

What Jesus said to Simon in Matthew 16:18 was this: ‘You are Kepha, and on this kepha I will build my Church.’

Sorry, but do you have the actual text in Aramaic or where we coul find it? Or is this just what you think based on the idea (which may or may not be true) that Jesus was speaking in aramaic, or that he actually used the aramaic word kepha both times, instead of the Greek words Petros and petra?

Because all that we have today is recorded in Greek, not Aramaic.

While it may be true that Jesus spoke in Aramaic, the distinction was made (either by Matthew or by Jesus or by whoever translated the Bible) between Peter and the rock on which Jesus would build His church.

When you understand what the Aramaic says, you see that Jesus was equating Simon and the rock; he wasn’t contrasting them.

Saying it doesn't make it so, and as I've given you evidence that says otherwise, you shouldn't make such claims without evidence.

For a few moments the missionary seemed stumped. Then it occurred to him.

Also, to say that Jesus is downplaying Peter flies in the face of the context.

No one is saying that Jesus is downplaying Peter.

We're saying that Jesus was promoting Himself, placing Himself at the center of the conversation, and Peter later calls Jesus the Petra anyways, so if you respect Peter at all, who is Petros, not petra, at least acknowledge that Peter called Jesus "PETRA."

Jesus is installing Peter as a form of chief steward or prime minister under the King of Kings by giving him the keys to the kingdom. As can be seen in Isaiah 22:22, kings in the Old Testament appointed a chief steward to serve under them in a position of great authority to rule over the inhabitants of the kingdom.

That's completely different than making Peter the literal foundation of a church.

Jesus quotes almost verbatim from this passage in Isaiah, and so it is clear what he has in mind. He is raising Peter up as a father figure to the household of faith (Isa. 22:21), to lead them and guide the flock (John 21:15-17). This authority of the prime minister under the king was passed on from one man to another down through the ages by the giving of the keys, which were worn on the shoulder as a sign of authority. Likewise, the authority of Peter has been passed down for 2000 years by means of the papacy. There you go.
(My answer is populated in part by this paper: LINK)

Again, giving someone authority is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than founding a church upon them, and NO MAN is good enough (and especially not Peter) to be the foundation of ANY church.

Which is my third witness that Peter is not the petra, Christ is, because CHRIST is the foundation for the church, not Peter. Peter was a Jew, and one of the twelve who would rule on one of the twelve thrones of Israel. People perverted that, however, and so we got the Catholic church out of it.

 

[Trump Gurl]

[h=1]Is Peter the Rock in Matthew 16:18?[/h]

Catholic Answers Senior Apologist Jimmy Akin answers the claim that Peter is not the "rock" Jesus refers to in Matthew 16:18.

 

[oatmeal]

Here is the text in question:

Matthew 16:13-18
13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Now take a look at what scripture has that shows us clearly who it is:

Deuteronomy 32:3-4 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Deuteronomy 32:15,18 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation……Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.


What does this say…?

2 Samuel 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God?


What does David say?…

Psalms 18:2 The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.

Psalms 18:31 For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?

Psalms 95:1 O come, let us sing unto the LORD: let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation.


and Isaiah:

Isaiah 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.


And we read in Matthew:

Matthew 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

And Luke:

Luke 20:17 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?

And we read what Paul wrote:

Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

1 Corinthians 3:9-11 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

And from Peter himself:

1 Peter 2:4-6 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

Acts 4:8-12 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel, If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole; Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

The Bible is clear and in complete harmony that Christ is the only rock and we are but stones which are built upon him. Now perhaps the best evidence that Christ did not appoint Peter as the “rock” on which He would build His church is the fact that none of those who heard Christ upon this occasion— not even Peter— construed His words in that way, either during the time that Christ was on earth or later. Had Christ made Peter chief among the disciples, they would not have been involved in repeated arguments afterward about which of them “should be accounted the greatest”.

A vacillating disciple like Peter would not qualify as a rock.

Your list of verses make it clear that God is the rock and his son could be rock, Jr.