Hi and in John 10:16 , we have 4 verbs and the last 2 are in the FUTURE TENSE and that means these SHEEP are not here today , BUT are thre sheep that are saved at the end of the GREAT TRIBULATION , don't you see !!
dsn p
ECT WHO IS THE ONE WHO BAPTIZES TODAY ??
- Thread starter DAN P
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Hi and in John 10:16 , we have 4 verbs and the last 2 are in the FUTURE TENSE and that means these SHEEP are not here today , BUT are thre sheep that are saved at the end of the GREAT TRIBULATION , don't you see !!
dsn p
dodge
New member
dan, you do understand that Israel rejected their Messiah and removed them from the true tree and grafted gentiles into that same tree ( Gospel of grace ), which Israel will be grafted back into the same tree during tribulation ?
Jhn 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
I would not be puffed up or arrogant about that because Scripture teaches that those grafted in can be removed. Do I believe one can lose their salvation NO, but there are a lot of folks that believe they are saved who are not. Jesus said NOT everyone that says to me Lord Lord will enter into the kingdom of heaven.
dodge
New member
Of course they heard and responded to the Gospel.
Yep, and from there they went into the whole world with the message of the D.B.R., Grace,the Lord's supper, and water baptism.
turbosixx
New member
I appreciate your comments!
If you will notice Mk. 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
The gospel began with baptism of repentance.
Mk. 1:4 John came, who baptized in the wilderness and preached the baptism of repentance unto remission of sins.
It was only repentance because it was before the D,B&R.
I would suggest they taught him baptism in Jesus' name. Consider this. First, that was all he was missing. Second, when Paul comes to town, the only thing he teaches them is that John's baptism was looking to Christ. He then baptizes them again without teaching them the gospel because they were already believers.
Acts 19:2 and he said unto them, Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye believed?
19:4 And Paul said, John baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people that they should believe on him that should come after him, that is, on Jesus. 5 And when they heard this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.
I agree it was for the Jews. Were the Gentiles looking for the Messiah?
If you will notice Mk. 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
The gospel began with baptism of repentance.
Mk. 1:4 John came, who baptized in the wilderness and preached the baptism of repentance unto remission of sins.
It was only repentance because it was before the D,B&R.
I would suggest to you this is a confusion tactic. In the NT there are not various washings. There's baptism by immersion and it was new. There's John's baptism and baptism in the name of Jesus, that's it. John's was to prepare the way until Jesus' sacrifice.
I would suggest they taught him baptism in Jesus' name. Consider this. First, that was all he was missing. Second, when Paul comes to town, the only thing he teaches them is that John's baptism was looking to Christ. He then baptizes them again without teaching them the gospel because they were already believers.
Acts 19:2 and he said unto them, Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye believed?
19:4 And Paul said, John baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people that they should believe on him that should come after him, that is, on Jesus. 5 And when they heard this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.
Hi ans I do understand Rom 11 and the believers today are not GRAFTED today and salvation is by the blood of Christ and areBAPTIZO / PLACED into the Body og Christ and Christ is NOT a sheep !!
Today we are to OBEY what Rom 16:25 and 26 as it is an OBEDIENCE OF FAITH !!
And in Rom 11:21 anyone can be cut off !!
dan p
dodge
New member
The law was a school master to get to grace. I am not under the law for salvation;however, The Lord's supper, and water baptism are not law !
glorydaz
Well-known member
Good, you agree it was for the Jews. Did Paul ever preach it to the Gentiles? If he did, please show me where you see it.
The baptism of repentance was for the Jews and the "setting aside" of their sins until they were begotten by the Gospel and given LIFE. In the same way, Jesus died for the sins of the world, but there is MUCH MORE, we shall be saved by His LIFE. Romans 5:10KJV Basically it's MERCY compared to Grace. Mercy is temporary until judgment comes. Grace is a gift freely given to those who believe and trust in the Lord for their justification.
Well, here's one...
1 Corinthians 10KJV
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
HERE.....neither of these baptisms had a thing to do with water. Jesus was already baptized by John (according to the law). But, in this verse, He was talking about being immersed in death when He went to the cross. No immersion in water this baptism.
Luke 12:50KJV But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!
We see the same here...no water involved.
Romans 6:3KJV Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
If water baptism was a part of the Gospel of Salvation, Paul would have included that in his teachings. In the OT, you will see the priests underwent baptism for their office, which, by the way, is why Jesus suffered John to baptise Him. It was a Jewish tradition...no more necessary for us than circumcision is.
Rather than point to a few that Paul happened to baptised certain ones, why don't you show us were you see it being made a requirement for us Gentiles?
glorydaz
Well-known member
Then why do you claim we have to observe them?
dodge
New member
The Lord's supper and baptism are not and were not the law !
MOST Acts 2 and Acts 9 Dispys, dodge, hold to the Lord's Supper.
The Acts 28 Dispensationalists do not.
What you are dealing with in some on here, who claim theirs is Acts 9 or Mid-Acts Dispensationalism aka MAD, is THEIR Hybrid of Acts 9/Acts 28 Dispy views into what THEY assert is "MAD."
And unlike MOST MADS out there, most Hybrids on here (not all) are VERY intolerant of ANYONE who points out THEIR Hybrid errors.
In fairness, and in wisdom, you'd best keep that in mind.
By the way, if you hold to water baptism, the Lord's Supper AND a Pre-Trib Rapture, AND a YET FUTURE restoration of the nation Israel, dodge, then YOU ARE an Acts 2 Dispy
turbosixx
New member
Sorry I haven’t gotten back to you sooner, I’ve been busy.
I’ve been thinking about the excellent points you made for a while and realized there is an underlying difference that will prevent us from every understanding the others position on water baptism.
When you said,
I realized you see two gospels and I see one. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you believe Paul received a different revelation than the 12. Since I see one, the 12 had already laid the foundation of baptism therefore Paul doesn’t need to teach its necessity. I see harmony in what Paul does teach and practice concerning baptism and how it agrees with what Jesus and the 12 taught and practiced.
I’ve been thinking about how to approach this subject. I was going to start a new thread on one gospel but I was unable to get all I wanted in the initial post without it being tooo long. I would very much like to explore this with you if you are willing. It will be very difficult to do in a forum, but it's worth a try.
If you see two gospels, when do you see the second one starting?
glorydaz
Well-known member
I'm far from an expert, but since the word Gospel literally means "good news" then you'd first have to determine which good news accomplishes what. One bit of good news would be the Gospel of the Kingdom that was preached to the Jews, where a King would come to sit on David's throne.
Another, the one which saves, is the Gospel of Grace, which was revealed to Paul by the risen Lord.
Acts 20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
That we are saved by grace through faith....not of ourselves. Not by being dunked in water, but by being created IN CHRIST JESUS by the Holy Spirit.
turbosixx
New member
I'm no expert either but I'm learning.
What gospel would you call this one?
Mk. 16:14 Afterward He appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at the table; and He reproached them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Mark 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
Since the Risen Lord had not yet appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus, and since the mystery had not yet been revealed to him, it couldn't have been the Gospel of Grace.
From the text, I'd have to say they were to preach that Christ had risen, and the signs and wonders were for the Jews, for it was the Jews that sought after signs. And, of course, the Jews were scattered all across the known world.
turbosixx
New member
I have two questions based on your reply.
How were these people saved, by the law, by the gospel or by something else?
Acts 2:47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.
What was the mystery revealed to Paul?
glorydaz
Well-known member
I don't know if I can say about Acts 2 for sure. They were being "called out", "save yourself" from this "untoward generation" Acts 2:40KJV, and added to the visible church, not baptised by the Spirit into the body of Christ. They were to "endure to the end", but we are already "hid with Christ in God." Colossians 3:3KJV
The mystery of Christ in you....the "indwelling Spirit" by which we become new creatures "created" in Him. It's an inward reality....done to us when we believe....not of ourselves at all.
Colossians 1:25-27KJV
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
turbosixx
New member
They were told to preach the gospel. If it's not the gospel of the kingdom or Paul's gospel then is there a third? I will tell you that Peter and Paul preached the same sermon in Acts 2 and Acts 13.
Those in Acts 2 were told they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
I would suggest to you that "Christ in you" is not the mystery but whom Christ is now in is. Notice he says "among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you" This is something new. He explains it better in Ephesians.
Eph. 3:4 By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; 6 to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,
If we read a little more of the context, we can see when the two groups became one.
Eph. 2:11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near; 18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household,
Since the law was abolished at Jesus' sacrifice and now through Jesus(gospel) Jew and Gentile are now one, that is why Jesus said preach the gospel to every creature.
Mk. 16:15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Then why did Peter later say, "We shall be saved, even as they"? He didn't say, they shall be saved the same as we are. Paul's Gospel of Grace was different.
Acts 15:11-12 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
turbosixx
New member
Good question. What is the context?
If we look at the context and think about what's going on, it's clear that the Jews are slowly understanding the new and living way. For over a thousand years, the Jews were God's only chosen people. Now that salvation has come through the Messiah, they still think they're God's only chosen people. The conversion of Cornelius was a wake up call for them. God made it clear to Peter in a vision that the Gentiles were now to be considered clean.
Acts 10:34 Opening his mouth, Peter said: “I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35 but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.
The meeting in Acts 15 is about circumcision.
15:1 Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”
Because of this debate, the Jews are starting to understand that although circumcised and descendants of Abraham, it is of no value. Seeing God accept the Gentiles without being circumcised and not being descendants of Abraham, they can better understand grace. That's what Peter realizes. "We shall be saved (apart from circumcision), even as they"
Circumcision has never been a part of the gospel. Those men were saying that without the apostles instructions.
Acts 15:24 “Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls,
Heb. 10:19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh
How were those saved on Pentecost if it wasn't grace?
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Hi and here is what Acts 15:11 is saying !!
Bur we believe through the GRACE / CHARIS of ( the ) Lord Jesus Christ to be saved as THEY ALSO !!
#1 , This means that Peter and the 12 were saved under the Kingdom program !!
#2 , The verb WE BELIEVE / PISTEUO means that they , Peter are still in the Kingdom program and still teaching the Law !!
And the ACTIVE VOICE means that the subjecy of verse 11 is God and He is producing the action that causes Peter to believe !!
The Indicative Mood means that verse 11 is a FACT !!
The second verse WE SHALL BE SAVED / SOZO is in the AORIST TENSE and pionts back to the message of Paul's teachin of Grace or the MYSTERY !!
After Acts 15 , Peter disappears and James takes his poisition in Acts 21:18 and 19 !!
dan p