Who is Israel?

[jamie]

Everybody wants to be the Jews. But when it comes to real Jews- they hate them.

"And God said to him, 'Your name is Jacob; your name shall not be called Jacob anymore, but Israel shall be your name.' So He called his name Israel." (Genesis 35:10)

And Israel had twelve sons, one of whom was Judah, the forefather of David.

Another son was Joseph who had two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh.

Israel blessed his grandsons and said, "The Angel who has redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads, let my name be named upon them." (Genesis 48:16)

Israel gave his name to Ephraim and Manasseh, not Judah.

Ephraim and Manasseh were given Israel's birthright.

"Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel — he was indeed the firstborn, but because he defiled his father’s bed, his birthright was given to the sons of Joseph, the son of Israel, so that the genealogy is not listed according to the birthright. Yet Judah prevailed over his brothers and from him came a ruler, although the birthright was Joseph’s." (1 Chronicles 5:1-2)

So who carries the name "Israel"? Not the Judeans, but rather Ephraim and Manasseh.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings jamie,

So who carries the name "Israel"? Not the Judeans, but rather Ephraim and Manasseh.

How do you read the following prophecy?
Ezekiel 38:14-16 (KJV): 14 Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it? 15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army: 16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
Is this describing Ephraim or is this talking about an invasion by the King of the North at a time after a remnant of the Jews have returned to the land and established themselves as agriculturalists and traders Ezekiel 38:12. In other words, the name Israel and the terms “my people of Israel” and “my land” is used for the present return of the Jews and the establishment of the State of Israel. They have returned in unbelief of Jesus as their Messiah, but the events described in Ezekiel 38-39 depict how they will undergo tribulation and conversion, paving the way for the establishment of the Temple in Ezekiel 40-48.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[jamie]

Is this describing Ephraim

Yes, and the brother nation Manasseh.

 

[Wick Stick]

Depends what you're reading. Or maybe I should say when.

Prior to the invasion of the Holy Land by Joshua, and throughout the period of the Judges, the name scarcely exists, as the chosen people are known as Hebrews.

The name seems to really come into its own only from the time of David, where it describes the confederated tribes, and that was short-lived.

After the death of Solomon, the country had a North/South split, and it became the name of only the northern half.

Then the Assyrians destroyed the northern kingdom, and for the next 1000 years or so, it's a crapshoot. Some descendents from the northern kingdom, relocated to Persia or Babylon, used the name. The foreign people that moved into the region of the northern kingdom, and ended up converting to the worship of the true God, also used the name. The Bible actually accepts neither of these, as both Testaments say that Israel ceased to exist.

According to the New Testament, Jesus came to re-gather the Lost Tribes from out of the nations, and re-join them to their brethren in the south in a united nation, under 12 new heads. In the fleshly sense, that didn't happen. So either there's some supernal fulfillment going on here, or there was a major delay in the program, or the whole thing is a pipe dream.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again jamie,

Yes, and the brother nation Manasseh.

I appreciate your response, but I am not sure of how you understand the details of Ezekiel 38. I consider that Ezekiel 38 describes the conditions in the land of Israel today, just before and during an invasion from the north. For this to be Ephraim and Manasseh only, then there must be no descendants of Judah, or no significant descendants of Judah in the land of Israel today. And yet many in the land today would consider that some of them at least are descendants of the Jews who were taken into captivity by the Romans in AD70. I await your explanation.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[notreligus]

Depends what you're reading. Or maybe I should say when.

Prior to the invasion of the Holy Land by Joshua, and throughout the period of the Judges, the name scarcely exists, as the chosen people are known as Hebrews.

The name seems to really come into its own only from the time of David, where it describes the confederated tribes, and that was short-lived.

After the death of Solomon, the country had a North/South split, and it became the name of only the northern half.

Then the Assyrians destroyed the northern kingdom, and for the next 1000 years or so, it's a crapshoot. Some descendents from the northern kingdom, relocated to Persia or Babylon, used the name. The foreign people that moved into the region of the northern kingdom, and ended up converting to the worship of the true God, also used the name. The Bible actually accepts neither of these, as both Testaments say that Israel ceased to exist.

According to the New Testament, Jesus came to re-gather the Lost Tribes from out of the nations, and re-join them to their brethren in the south in a united nation, under 12 new heads. In the fleshly sense, that didn't happen. So either there's some supernal fulfillment going on here, or there was a major delay in the program, or the whole thing is a pipe dream.

Jesus came to reconcile mankind back to God Almighty.

 

[notreligus]

Gen 22:18 and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice."

Gal 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many, but referring to one, "And to your offspring," who is Christ.

Christ is true Israel.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Jesus is the King of Israel

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Greetings again jamie, I appreciate your response, but I am not sure of how you understand the details of Ezekiel 38. I consider that Ezekiel 38 describes the conditions in the land of Israel today, just before and during an invasion from the north. For this to be Ephraim and Manasseh only, then there must be no descendants of Judah, or no significant descendants of Judah in the land of Israel today. And yet many in the land today would consider that some of them at least are descendants of the Jews who were taken into captivity by the Romans in AD70. I await your explanation.

Kind regards
Trevor

Ez ch 38 does not describe the conditions of today.

Eze 38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

Eze 38:11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,

LA

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Lazy afternoon,

Ez ch 38 does not describe the conditions of today.
Eze 38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.
Eze 38:11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,

Some of the terms, especially verse 8 seem applicable. Verse 11 may be from the perspective that in the time of Ezekiel there were walled cities. Israel today is one continuous country. But the picture may represent a particular future time when “peace” is established with the Palestinians and Israel’s neighbours. This does not have to be in the distant future.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[jamie]

Greetings again jamie, I appreciate your response, but I am not sure of how you understand the details of Ezekiel 38. I consider that Ezekiel 38 describes the conditions in the land of Israel today, just before and during an invasion from the north.

Ezekiel 38-39 makes no mention of Judah or the house of Judah.

It is my understanding that the U.S. and western Europe will be attacked by Russia, China, Iran and their allies.

Of course the nations of Israel will respond.

The purpose of this war is to clean house in preparation for God's kingdom to be established over the earth.

Your understanding of Ezekiel's prophecy may be different from mine.

 

[jamie]

Eze 38:11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,

Not only unwalled villages, but our southern border is like a sieve.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Not only unwalled villages, but our southern border is like a sieve.

Notice that the only place in the future for peace in Israel is after Christ returns and the vials are poured out.

Amageddon is at the 7th vial of wrath.

Christ returns to begin the vials, after the resurrection.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

(However it is because of the peace in the land that the 6th vial occurs.)

 

[daqq]

Depends what you're reading. Or maybe I should say when.

Prior to the invasion of the Holy Land by Joshua, and throughout the period of the Judges, the name scarcely exists, as the chosen people are known as Hebrews.

The name seems to really come into its own only from the time of David, where it describes the confederated tribes, and that was short-lived.

After the death of Solomon, the country had a North/South split, and it became the name of only the northern half.

Then the Assyrians destroyed the northern kingdom, and for the next 1000 years or so, it's a crapshoot. Some descendents from the northern kingdom, relocated to Persia or Babylon, used the name. The foreign people that moved into the region of the northern kingdom, and ended up converting to the worship of the true God, also used the name. The Bible actually accepts neither of these, as both Testaments say that Israel ceased to exist.

According to the New Testament, Jesus came to re-gather the Lost Tribes from out of the nations, and re-join them to their brethren in the south in a united nation, under 12 new heads. In the fleshly sense, that didn't happen. So either there's some supernal fulfillment going on here, or there was a major delay in the program, or the whole thing is a pipe dream.

The Master explains these things in the form of allegories and parables, and therefore it is an allegory and a parable, and it concerns the always underlying body-temple analogy. The northern tribes went into captivity some 750 years before the advent of Messiah, (that is three quarters of a millennium in and of itself, even before the advent of Messiah). The only way to take the two sticks and make them one is by doing so one person at a time, that is, the one new man in Messiah. Thus you are set over the "lost tribes" if you are in Messiah; for it is a body-temple analogy, and circumcision is of the heart, and a true Yhudi is one who is Yhudi inwardly, (and thus you have a parable and allegory of Yhudah mixed with Beyamin, and Levi of the heart, the inward man of the heart). The northern tribes went out into captivity, into the nations, and were mingled throughout the nations, (because from Elam they were then scattered to the four winds of the heavens, Jer 49:34-39). They are therefore enemies for the sake of the Gospel but beloved because of the fathers; and they are enemies because they dwell in the outer bounds of your body-temple, that is, the flesh. People like to tell me I am crazy, and a sorcerer, a Gnostic heretic, and all sorts of evil names for saying such things; but this is the only answer you will ever find. When the allegory concerns the hands, (power), you have five "little ones" on your right and five on your left, (even "Lazarus" is one of the "little ones"), but they are mixed and mingled together, both the good and the seemingly good, like ten little virgins; five wise and five foolish. When the Son of Man comes you will put the "sheep" on your right hand side, and the "goats" you will separate to your left hand side, (and you will not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, lol), and the King will send the wicked ones away in the appointed time. I speak foolishly, as if a fool, but the wisdom of Elohim in the Testimony of Messiah confounds the wisdom of this world. :chuckle: