Which Mystery Would You Pick?

[Nolan]

Four-point Calvinist Warren Wiersbe affirms both divine election and human free will. Wiersbe also recognized the difficulty in reconciling the two concepts, stating that "The mystery of divine sovereignty and human responsibility will never be solved in this life". Therefore, the fall of Adam was due to human free will.

Five-point Calvinist James White affirms divine election and rejects human free will. White also believes that God ultimately ordains all things, including the fall of Adam. Because he believes that scripture does not directly expound upon the nature of Adam’s fall, it should therefore remain a mystery.

Both men claim to have a mystery that they are stuck with and goes back to how we understand fall of Adam. Whether or not you agree or disagree with their theologies, which of these two “mysteries” are you more likely to side with and why?

 

[ttruscott]

"The mystery of divine sovereignty and human responsibility will never be solved in this life".

There is no mystery until our understanding of reality bumps up against our chosen theology of our being created at conception or birth...

Because he believes that scripture does not directly expound upon the nature of Adam’s fall, it should therefore remain a mystery.

I believe that there is (or will be more revelation) about our true creation which will bring our fall, including Adam's fall, into the light...but which will be rejected as it contradicts our long held theologies of our fall so it is rejected by faith.

I won't say that there are no true mysteries but these two are not true mysteries at all but merely opposite and contradictory theories help to be true at the same time by doublethink because our preconceived acceptance of the truth of each side...

 

[Derf]

Four-point Calvinist Warren Wiersbe affirms both divine election and human free will. Wiersbe also recognized the difficulty in reconciling the two concepts, stating that "The mystery of divine sovereignty and human responsibility will never be solved in this life". Therefore, the fall of Adam was due to human free will.

Five-point Calvinist James White affirms divine election and rejects human free will. White also believes that God ultimately ordains all things, including the fall of Adam. Because he believes that scripture does not directly expound upon the nature of Adam’s fall, it should therefore remain a mystery.

Both men claim to have a mystery that they are stuck with and goes back to how we understand fall of Adam. Whether or not you agree or disagree with their theologies, which of these two “mysteries” are you more likely to side with and why?

Both mysteries dissolve with an openness construct that denies God knows the future exhaustively. Why should we choose one bad mystery over another? It's like picking your favorite Scooby Doo episode.

 

[Nolan]

Both mysteries dissolve with an openness construct that denies God knows the future exhaustively. Why should we choose one bad mystery over another? It's like picking your favorite Scooby Doo episode.

What I’m trying to point out here is that one man who believes in determinism ultimately ends up with a mystery.

Another man who does not believe in determinism also ends up with a mystery.

Neither one can explain why it is a mystery, they can only accept it as a mystery and leave it at that.

Which one is a better reflection of the character of God?

And now that you mentioned it, what is your favorite Scooby Doo episode?

 

[Derf]

What I’m trying to point out here is that one man who believes in determinism ultimately ends up with a mystery.

Another man who does not believe in determinism also ends up with a mystery.

Neither one can explain why it is a mystery, they can only accept it as a mystery and leave it at that.

Which one is a better reflection of the character of God?

The problem is that both believe in determinism, but one is more consistent than the other. James White's view is more internally consistent, because he doesn't allow for man's free will in a universe of God's absolute sovereignty.

And now that you mentioned it, what is your favorite Scooby Doo episode?

If I were to describe it to you without naming any characters, you wouldn't be able to tell which one of all they did I was referring to. So it fits the comparison well between two practically indistinguishable theologies. Just some episodes make you feel better inside.

 

[Nolan]

The problem is that both believe in determinism, but one is more consistent than the other.

The logical conclusion of Wiersbe’s theology doesn’t lead back to God being the author of sin since free will is allowed.

Just some episodes make you feel better inside.

I like the one where they catch the bad guy.

 

[Derf]

The logical conclusion of Wiersbe’s theology doesn’t lead back to God being the author of sin since free will is allowed.

Here's how I see it. If your theology says that everything you will ever think and do is known before you exist, then you are really the one thinking and doing. Both options are therefore deterministic.

The difference, then, is that White believes God is the determiner, while Wiersbe, though he doesn't realize it, is postulating some other being as the determiner, and God merely looks on this other being's work. Since that other being is actually responsible for all that we do, he is effectively more powerful than God. In the end, Wiersbe is really just a regular determinist who is ashamed of his theology.

I like the one where they catch the bad guy.

You mean the one that was dressing up as a ghost and scaring everybody else away from the buried treasure until he could dig it up?

 

[Idolater]

Wiersbe [stated] that "The mystery of divine sovereignty and human responsibility will never be solved in this life".

I'll keep beating this drum because it continues to be relevant. Watch the movie The Game with Michael Douglas and Sean Penn. And then tell me, did the main character attempt to un-alive himself because of his free will, or was he manipulated into the attempt?

 

[Nolan]

I'll keep beating this drum because it continues to be relevant. Watch the movie The Game with Michael Douglas and Sean Penn. And then tell me, did the main character attempt to un-alive himself because of his free will, or was he manipulated into the attempt?

We don’t need to be going to Hollywood to determine our theology.

 

[Idolater]

We don’t need to be going to Hollywood to determine our theology.

Sometimes a work of art provides a concept that we cannot conceive of before it is expressed is all.

 

[Derf]

Sometimes a work of art provides a concept that we cannot conceive of before it is expressed is all.

Sometimes works of art provide concepts that aren't healthy to be expressed, too.

 

[Idolater]

Sometimes works of art provide concepts that aren't healthy to be expressed, too.

Granted, but that's neither here nor there in this discussion, as that's not what I'm suggesting at all.

 

[Nick M]

which of these two “mysteries” are you more likely to side with and why?

Adam was the first feminist. He listened to his wife instead of God and it was his choice. For this, God put the death of man and this planet on his shoulders. So yes, it was his choice. And like the rest of us, he rebelled against God.

 

[Nick M]

Watch the movie The Game with Michael Douglas and Sean Penn. And then tell me, did the main character attempt to un-alive himself because of his free will, or was he manipulated into the attempt?

The movie sucks. Anyway, they did manipulate, and he chose to jump.

 

[Idolater]

The movie sucks. Anyway, they did manipulate, and he chose to jump.

Agreed.