Where did God come from?
- Thread starter Mac_guy
- Start date
Eternal is everlasting duration, not timelessness. Has God existed during the duration of earth/mankind history? Yes. Does creation precede Fall/Flood and first then second coming? Can Jesus rise from the dead before He is born? Is sequence a limitation on God (NO) or is it an aspect of His everlasting reality? God does not age like humans, but that does not mean He does not think, act, feel (personal) in succession (time). Ps. 90:2; Rev. 1:8; Ps. 102:27 (it does not say he does not have years, but that they are without end). There is time in eternity in Revelation, so heaven/God/eternity does not have to mean timelessness (philosophical, incoherent concept).
Aimiel
Well-known member
Yes, that's what you've been taught. You have swallowed that hook, line and sinker. I don't and I won't; no matter how many times you repeat it. You've said it so many times that it has become completely meaningless. Please grow up.
God isn't effected by time, being its Creator.
The things which The Lamb, slain from the foundation of the earth, does, in our sight in this temporal realm do not give us a complete picture or understanding of God.
If He chooses to, He can do anything. :duh:
As I said, God isn't hampered by anything, including time.
His relation to us of His Character by means of parables to give us perceptions of Him in keeping with our own reality don't give us full information on Him or put Him in a box (as you're trying to do).
It is only incoherent if you are limited to thinking in a temporal realm with a temporal brain along temporal lines. God isn't limited in ANY way. :duh:
Your response seems to be that God cannot reveal basic things about His reality and that we should reject the face value revelation if it contradicts your preconceived view:hammer: I reject timelessness based on history, logic, Scripture, not because I read it in a book and threw my brain out the window. One view is defensible/coherent and the other is not. Just because you are not aware of or do not understand the issues does not mean there is not evidence for and against views.
Saying that God can do anything is not believed by atheists nor theists. We can all think of many things an omnipotent God cannot do, so that is not an argument. You say He can make Jesus rise from the dead before He incarnates or make His Second Coming precede His first coming. Few would agree with you. It is moot since He has revealed chronology/sequence in His experiences and divine life. So, the evidence shows divine temporality, not timelessness. There is a before and after creation, even for God. In no way is this a limitation (you wrongly reject the view because you think it limits God; it does not limit a personal, infinite being to think, feel, act in succesion/duration/time). The fact that the God-Man can experience duration shows that one does not have to be timeless to be of the nature of God. Jesus did not cease to be God when He became a man. There was a before and after incarnation for the eternal Word, so endless duration is defensible (Ps. 90:2; Ps. 102:27; Rev. 1:8 tensed expressions about God...you seem to think that God is not revealing truth in these statements...in fact, He is, but it contradicts your assumptions; your view is traced to pagan philosophy and reasoning, not to any biblical or logical evidence).
I doubt you have wrestled with the possible views held by Christians. I agree with Wolterstorff (IVP is a credible publisher):
http://www.amazon.com/God-Time-Gregory-E-Ganssle/dp/0830815511
(look inside for contents)
Our view on this subject is not heaven-hell, but it does have significant, practical implications for our understanding of God and our relationship with Him.
Saying that God can do anything is not believed by atheists nor theists. We can all think of many things an omnipotent God cannot do, so that is not an argument. You say He can make Jesus rise from the dead before He incarnates or make His Second Coming precede His first coming. Few would agree with you. It is moot since He has revealed chronology/sequence in His experiences and divine life. So, the evidence shows divine temporality, not timelessness. There is a before and after creation, even for God. In no way is this a limitation (you wrongly reject the view because you think it limits God; it does not limit a personal, infinite being to think, feel, act in succesion/duration/time). The fact that the God-Man can experience duration shows that one does not have to be timeless to be of the nature of God. Jesus did not cease to be God when He became a man. There was a before and after incarnation for the eternal Word, so endless duration is defensible (Ps. 90:2; Ps. 102:27; Rev. 1:8 tensed expressions about God...you seem to think that God is not revealing truth in these statements...in fact, He is, but it contradicts your assumptions; your view is traced to pagan philosophy and reasoning, not to any biblical or logical evidence).
I doubt you have wrestled with the possible views held by Christians. I agree with Wolterstorff (IVP is a credible publisher):
http://www.amazon.com/God-Time-Gregory-E-Ganssle/dp/0830815511
(look inside for contents)
Our view on this subject is not heaven-hell, but it does have significant, practical implications for our understanding of God and our relationship with Him.
It makes sense to me:jawdrop: On the other hand, some of your views sound like sci-fi, even for a fellow Pentecostal
Do you still love me? You are loved and appreciated.
Try to refute my arguments instead of argumentum ad hominem. Get up to speed on the issues with that readable book and see how dogmatic you should be with your view. 3/4 views are closer to your view, yet they can't agree on the details (these are not dummies either).
Aimiel
Well-known member
I don't stop loving someone because they make ad homenim comments or put up hammer-head smileys in reply to me. I don't stay warm and fuzzy while reading such tripe, but I do attempt to stay on the high road in my replies.
I don't need to refute your remarks, because that's all they are: your opinion of what you've read. I don't doubt you believe what you believe because of what you've read; but neither do I believe that anything I've said has been disproven or disputed in the least. :squint:
I don't need to refute your remarks, because that's all they are: your opinion of what you've read. I don't doubt you believe what you believe because of what you've read; but neither do I believe that anything I've said has been disproven or disputed in the least. :squint:
I guess I have accepted by faith that there is something called eternity and infinity... but that doesn't explain God. Belief in those things might even fit the Big Bang and evolution theories. I think what makes me believe that infinity and eternity is the ONE God ... is the evidence of intellect, creativeness, and LIFE.
For there to BE LIFE ... there had to have been an original source... an omni-present LIFE within eternity. For there to be LIFE co-existing with intellect leads one to accept a creator/aka the LIVING creative GOD.
For there to BE LIFE ... there had to have been an original source... an omni-present LIFE within eternity. For there to be LIFE co-existing with intellect leads one to accept a creator/aka the LIVING creative GOD.
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Letsargue
New member
My opinion, thanks.
However, my opinion is that the Revelation of John is and was not to us. The Revelation was to the seven Churches, because that’s the opinion of God, that’s what he said. John interpreted the VISION for the seven Churches, not for the rest of the world. – Revelation 1:11 KJV – “I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, WHAT THOU "SEEST", WRITE IN A BOOK, AND SEND IT UNTO THE SEVEN CHURCHES WHICH ARE IN ASIA”. – You have what John saw, not what he wrote to the Churches. They would have understood it the same as you if John hadn’t interpreted it for them. You do not have the GIFT OF INTEREPRETATION; neither does anyone else that you or I know. None of the Apostles received anything but visions from God, and they interpreted the Gospel and did give that to us. The Revelation is not to you. – You have to change what it says, in order to teach what is said, and that’s God’s opinion. – Revelation 22:18 KJV – “For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, (IF ANY MAN SHALL ADD UNTO THESE THINGS), God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book”. – You cannot add without changing, and that’s my opinion also.
You say that Christ reveals THEM to “us” by his Spirit. That’s what he said, but that is for the Christian, not for the lost. If you have the mind of Christ, where did you get anything? You read what he said in the letter of the word, not the Spirit of the Word. God is that Spirit, that Holy Spirit or either there are two Holy Spirits. --- Please tell me what you received about those things that the lost have no idea what God is talking about, and is not written in any form, and the lost could not know them. He did give them to US. I can tell you what those things are. Can you tell me anything about anything of what is in your hereafter that is not a Parable? – Matthew 13:11 KJV – “Because it is given unto you (Not the lost) to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, BUT TO THEM (THE LOST) IT IS NOT GIVEN”. VERSE #13 - THEREFORE SPEAK I TO THEM (THE LOST) IN PARABLES”.
Paul – 101009
Letsargue
New member
You said in your post #107 of this thread that you have not been disproven or disputed in the least of anything that you’ve said. Well some one should, because most of what you’re saying / teaching is error.
I know, I know, you are not going to respond to such as this.
There are many people that are too afraid to respond to the chastening of the Lord. - (No I’m not saying I’m the Lord and am chastening you, just in case you are one of the nasty people who like to fight like that). - It’s all Scriptures that is for the reproving, rebuking, “correcting” or instructing the false teacher who has the Word of God wrong, like you do. That is the chastening of the Lord by the Word of the Lord.
Let me guess, you’re a Baptist.
Your understanding of the Scriptures as stated in the "beginning" is totally in error. God ONLY created the Heaven (without an (S), only one heaven, there was not two heavens at the beginning. God did not say that there were two or more, you did in error. It did not in the beginning include the “vastness of space” as you call it. That was the “firmament” and it came later, after the beginning, not in the beginning. You said that includes all measurement, including time. There was NO MEASUREMENT, and there was NO TIME until the first day, which came later, and NOT IN THE BEGINNING.
You now stand corrected by the Scriptures, which is the means of the chastening of the Lord.
However, those as you will always despise the chastening of the Lord. God teaches that also.
Peace?
Paul – 101109
Silent Hunter
Well-known member
The same can be said of your remarks throughout this thread. I believe in flying pink unicorns. They MUST be real... you can't disprove them either.
Are you assuming nothing is knowable? There is much more evidence for theism/Christianity and against fairy tale creatures than you realize.
Silent Hunter
Well-known member
Quite the classic Red Herring poster aren't you?
No there's not... :yawn:
Pickled herring, maybe.
Yes there is:yawn::rip:
Ardipithecus is a unique primate, not a man (nah nah).
Letsargue
New member
Oh yes there are.
You must not have read – 1 Corinthians 2:13-15 KJV – “Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14- But THE NATURAL MAN RECEIVETH NOT THE THINGS OF THE SPIRIT of God: for THEY ARE FOOLISHNESS UNTO HIM: NEITHER CAN HE KNOW THEM , because they are spiritually discerned. 15- But he that is spiritual judgeth all things”. “Judgeth, or knows all things”.
It appears you and Aimiel are as natural as the man spoken there. Some of you are afraid to stand up to some of the things that are spoken by others. – AAAHHHH, waiting.
Peace.
Paul – 101209
Silent Hunter
Well-known member
LOL. Show me.
Silent Hunter
Well-known member
LOL. Quotes from the Bible are no more proof of the Christian god than quotes from Bulfinch's Mythology are proof of flying pink unicorns.
Would you agree with this statement:
"Everything that is had a beginning?"
Silent Hunter
Well-known member
Prove it.
It's laughable how Christians demand to have it both ways, ie:
"Everything that is (except their god) had a creator."
How is a medical textbook a "trashy novel?"
(Reminder to self; when cornered Christians resort to changing the subject.)
There is? Either prove pink unicorns and spaghetti monsters don't exist or that the Christian god does exist. I'll wait.There is a difference between proof for God and proof for pink unicorns or spaghetti monsters.
Genesis 1:1
Romans 1
Psalm 19
Psalm 14:1
Jn. 3:16
Jn. 1:1-14
The burden of proof is on you to prove that He does not exist. There is no coherent explanation for reality apart from a personal God.
Is matter eternal in your view? Where did it come from?
God is uncreated. He is unique. He is the first cause. I don't know how He has always existed, but it blows my mind and leads me to love and worship Him.
Romans 1
Psalm 19
Psalm 14:1
Jn. 3:16
Jn. 1:1-14
The burden of proof is on you to prove that He does not exist. There is no coherent explanation for reality apart from a personal God.
Is matter eternal in your view? Where did it come from?
God is uncreated. He is unique. He is the first cause. I don't know how He has always existed, but it blows my mind and leads me to love and worship Him.