When does the Biblical month begin?

[daqq]

Leviticus 23:23-25
23 The LORD said to Moses, 24 “Say to the Israelites: ‘On the first day of the seventh month you are to have a day of sabbath rest, a sacred assembly commemorated with trumpet blasts. 25 Do no regular work, but present a food offering to the LORD.’ ”

It was the only new moon day God called a Sabbath and commemorated it with sacrifices and trumpet blasts. It is called 'The head of the year' because it is New years day because it was when God made the Earth etc, and was also the day Jesus was born!

It is one of the 7 most Holy days. You are very much mistaken.

Even your own statement is not factually correct because Lev23:24 says shabbaton, which is a rest, but not necessarily a Shabbat, while at the same time Yom Kippurim, (the tenth), is called more critically and importantly a Shabbat shabbaton, that is, a Shabbat or Sabbath of shabbaton-rest. Not even modern Judaism keeps it this way, so I suppose both you and Jacob will disagree with this, but this is what the passage says and thus teaches, (Lev23:24-32).

How therefore can you have a Shabbat on the first and a Shabbat on the tenth in the same month? Is this another place where you insert days that do not even actually get counted in your calendar? There is no way even this one little technicality will work on your calendar because if you insert extra days you must insert them at the end of the previous month, between the months: but there is no way to insert your extra days between the first and the tenth of any given month and there certainly is no way to remove any days. I understand why some will add days to keep the Shabbat on the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th in their calendar, but I have never heard of anyone trying to add or remove days between the first and the tenth of a month or anywhere in the midst of an ongoing month. And obviously you cannot have a Shabbat on the first and a Shabbat on the tenth if you have a seven day week consisting of seven twenty-four hour days: it's that simple, and yet Yom Kippurim is plainly stated to be a Shabbat shabbaton, (Lev23:32), which is a Shabbat of rest.

And since you claim to be the all-knowing chief kahuna when it comes to calendars you should have already known about this little technicality, eh kahuna? Why therefore do you say that Rosh Hashanah is called a Sabbath when it is not? A shabbaton is not always a Shabbat because the Shabbatot are called Shabbat shabbaton beginning in Exo16:23, (which also calls it holy, a shabbaton Shabbat kodesh). Other days which are not Sabbaths, such as Rosh Hashanah, can still be called a shabbaton-rest but that does not mean they are the same as the Shabbat.

 

[daqq]

You might think you have a point as Lev 23:24 only calls Rosh Hashanah a Shabbathon (Strong's 7677) meaning 'rest' and states to do no regular work rather than no work at all:

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/leviticus/23-24.htm

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/7677.htm

While the Day of Atonement is clearly described as a Sabbath Lev 16:31 (Strong's 7676)

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/leviticus/16-31.htm

and so is Exodus 16:32

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/exodus/16-23.htm

But the word Shabbathon is used 11 times in the OT and every time except in Lev23:24 it is used in conjunction with the word Sabbath (Strong's 7676) and some translators translate Lev23:24 as Sabbath including the Interlinear:

http://biblehub.com/text/leviticus/23-24.htm

Moreover if you read Lev 23 it says the day of First fruits is the day after the Sabbath:

Leviticus 23:11
He is to wave the sheaf before the LORD so it will be accepted on your behalf; the priest is to wave it on the day after the Sabbath. (Strong's 7676)

First fruits is always on day 16 Aviv and the Feast of Unleavened bread which is also Passover (day 15 Aviv) is only described as a 'holy convocation' in Leviticus rather than a 'Sabbath!' Therefore Trumpets could easily be a Sabbath as it is described as a Shabbathon which is obviously related to the word Sabbath. Perhaps this article will help you to understand?:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...C#v=onepage&q=is shabbathon a sabbath&f=false

But even if you were right (which I don't think you are) it is still one of the 7 main feasts of the LORD as I said and it also makes no difference to all the other Sabbaths (apart from Atonement and most likely Trumpets) being on days 8, 15, 22 & 29. Please read Exodus 16 and notice that the manna was sent on days 16 to 21 of Month 2 and day 22 is called a Sabbath!, while the month before, the Passover occurred on day 15! thus making Sabbaths fall on days: 15, 22 & 29 of month 1 and days 8, 15 & 22 etc of month 2:

http://biblehub.com/niv/exodus/16.htm

I have already studied all of those things and know precisely of what I speak. Why are you ignoring the elephant in the room? Your calendar cannot be correct because you cannot possibly have a Sabbath on both the first and the tenth. Yom Kippurim is most definitely and absolutely a Shabbat shabbaton, a Sabbath of rest, and therefore the first cannot be a weekly Shabbat, and neither can the eighth be a Shabbat in the same month because it would fall two days before the Shabbat of Yom Kippurim. Can you not count? Eight plus two is ten and two days is not seven days by any stretch of the imagination. Your calendar therefore CANNOT be "God's Calendar" because it apparently does not even recognize the great Shabbat of Yom Kippurim! :chuckle:

 

[Jacob]

Your English is not making sense Jacob. Today is not Rosh Hashanah.

Shalom.

Today is Revi'i, 12-6. It is morning, day.

I was not saying that it is Rosh Hashanah.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[daqq]

You might think you have a point as Lev 23:24 only calls Rosh Hashanah a Shabbathon (Strong's 7677) meaning 'rest' and states to do no regular work rather than no work at all:

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/leviticus/23-24.htm

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/7677.htm

While the Day of Atonement is clearly described as a Sabbath Lev 16:31 (Strong's 7676)

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/leviticus/16-31.htm

and so is Exodus 16:32

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/exodus/16-23.htm

But the word Shabbathon is used 11 times in the OT and every time except in Lev23:24 it is used in conjunction with the word Sabbath (Strong's 7676) and some translators translate Lev23:24 as Sabbath including the Interlinear:

http://biblehub.com/text/leviticus/23-24.htm

Moreover if you read Lev 23 it says the day of First fruits is the day after the Sabbath:

Leviticus 23:11
He is to wave the sheaf before the LORD so it will be accepted on your behalf; the priest is to wave it on the day after the Sabbath. (Strong's 7676)

First fruits is always on day 16 Aviv and the Feast of Unleavened bread which is also Passover (day 15 Aviv) is only described as a 'holy convocation' in Leviticus rather than a 'Sabbath!' Therefore Trumpets could easily be a Sabbath as it is described as a Shabbathon which is obviously related to the word Sabbath. Perhaps this article will help you to understand?:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...C#v=onepage&q=is shabbathon a sabbath&f=false

But even if you were right (which I don't think you are) it is still one of the 7 main feasts of the LORD as I said and it also makes no difference to all the other Sabbaths (apart from Atonement and most likely Trumpets) being on days 8, 15, 22 & 29. Please read Exodus 16 and notice that the manna was sent on days 16 to 21 of Month 2 and day 22 is called a Sabbath!, while the month before, the Passover occurred on day 15! thus making Sabbaths fall on days: 15, 22 & 29 of month 1 and days 8, 15 & 22 etc of month 2:

http://biblehub.com/niv/exodus/16.htm

I have already studied all of those things and know precisely of what I speak. Why are you ignoring the elephant in the room? Your calendar cannot be correct because you cannot possibly have a Sabbath on both the first and the tenth. Yom Kippurim is most definitely and absolutely a Shabbat shabbaton, a Sabbath of rest, and therefore the first cannot be a weekly Shabbat, and neither can the eighth be a Shabbat in the same month because it would fall two days before the Shabbat of Yom Kippurim. Can you not count? Eight plus two is ten and two days is not seven days by any stretch of the imagination. Your calendar therefore CANNOT be "God's Calendar" because it apparently does not even recognize the great Shabbat of Yom Kippurim! :chuckle:

No answer Watchman? Every place in the Torah where we find shabbat and shabbaton used together the passage always speaks of the weekly Shabbat, with the only partial exception being the sabbatical year, (but it still speaks in terms of sabbaths of weeks of years).

Exodus 16:23 ~ shabbaton shabbat kodesh, (weekly Shabbat).
Exodus 31:15 ~ shabbat shabbaton kodesh, (weekly Shabbat).
Exodus 35:2 ~ kodesh shabbat shabbaton, (weekly Shabbat).
Leviticus 16:31 ~ shabbat shabbaton, (Yom Kippurim - weekly Shabbat).
Leviticus 23:3 ~ shabbat shabbaton, mikra kodesh, (weekly Shabbat).
Leviticus 23:32 ~ shabbat shabbaton, (Yom Kippurim - weekly Shabbat).
Leviticus 25:4 ~ shabbat shabbaton, (the weekly Shabbat of years for the land).

Does your calendar properly place Yom Kippurim as occurring on a weekly Shabbat, Watchman? And if not then how can it be "God's Calendar" if it does not even recognize the greatest weekly Shabbat of the year, the Day of Atonements? Every other Shabbat shabbaton is a weekly Shabbat according to the Torah, whether it be days or the one place which speaks of weeks of years: and Yom Kippurim is called the same, and therefore it also it a weekly Shabbat. The evidence from the Torah is plain as day for those who are of a willing heart to receive it. And therefore the tenth of the seventh hodesh is a shabbat shabbaton weekly Shabbat of Rest.

 

[daqq]

I've been busy but am here now.

This Thread is about whether God's Calendar starts with new moon or starts according to the Julian/Gregorian calendar. If you want to discuss when the Sabbath is we can do that here: http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?127270-When-is-the-Sabbath&highlight=

But please bear in mind that I did not invent any of these calendars, as you keep stating, no more than you invented them. You also call me the calendar Kahuna but I can not take that credit either as there are others who have know this subject for longer than myself and have been teaching it far more extensively than myself too. IMHO I think think Robert-Aaron Richmond is possibly the 'calendar Kahuna'. If you really want to know where in the Bible it clearly lists when the Sabbath is, he very clear shows six different places in the Bible which explain that the Sabbath can only be on days 8,15,22 & 29 each lunar month. If you are genuinely wanting to debate the Sabbath, rather than most people who say they know it all already but won't even look at anything, then that's fine and I will discuss it more after you have watch his video. Otherwise it is pointless as you have no knowledge of the scriptures that I am trying to discuss: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJq8tKvnemU

You are the one who made the statement that the Torah calls Rosh Hashanah a Sabbath. That is incorrect, and it does have bearing on when the month begins because you insert your extra days before the new moon day to keep your calendar supposedly on track with the cycles of the moon. However your calendar cannot be correct if the tenth of the seventh month is a weekly Shabbat, just as the Torah says it is. When you claim that the Shabbat is always on days 8, 15, 22, and 29, as you just did again, you prove that you do not know what you are talking about and that those whose calendar you follow do not know what they are talking about. You are the one who has been prancing around boasting your IQ and calling others insane, mad, and too stupid to understand what you are trying to say: yet I understand what you are saying and herein you apparently cannot understand why you are flat out wrong because you apparently do not believe the Torah so much as you claim you do. You do not have "God's Calendar" and neither do those who invented it, period, because you and they deny what the scripture says about Yom Kippurim being a Shabbat shabbaton weekly Sabbath of Rest. And the only reason you are denying it is obviously because it does not conform to your buffoonerous calendar which you falsely claim to be "God's Calendar".

You have proven that you are not here to discuss the scripture and find the truth but instead only to spread your erroneous calendar, and to promote your false prophecies of the tribulation beginning in 2022, and Jesus returning in 2029, based on that erroneous calendar and your erroneous chronological date setting mathematics.

 

[patrick jane]

:yawn:

"You do this and you don't do that. You are incorrect, you haven't studied enough. You are way off, what are you thinking?" - daqq

 

[daqq]

:yawn:

"You do this and you don't do that. You are incorrect, you haven't studied enough. You are way off, what are you thinking?" - daqq

Much the same as in your thread: if someone is going to psychoanalyze me and announce to the world that they think I have a complex then I am going to prove that it is they themselves who have the complex. And wouldn't you know it: the sociopath cries foul when he gets his psychoanalysis thrown back in his face and you do some psychoanalyzing of your own on him and then proceed prove that he is a liar. It really is no different here: the OP has announced to the world that he has a higher IQ than most everyone here, and he has likewise judged that I appear to be insane according to his own psychoanalysis of my character. He therefore deserves to be proven the liar that he is. Moreover he has posted prophecies, setting dates for the appearance of the Anti-Christ in Damascus Syria, on 11 October 2022, and the return of Jesus on 24 September 2029. And after the time I spent in your flat earth thread I can now understand why you defend him. But besides all that, what I have said before this response to you was all on topic and related to one of his own statements: so I do not see why you feel the need to take this thread off topic as you now have.

 

[daqq]

Patrick Jane understands that this is NOT my calendar and he's not even bothered about the calendar issue nor have we even discussed it. Yet I have told you a dozen or more times that it is not my calendar and given many links to other sites which teach God's Calendar but still you can't even understand this simple fact.

I have many times asked you to watch or read about God's Calendar in scripture but you have failed to do this too and yet you think you know it all still.

It is therefore little wonder why you can't understand anything that I am trying to discuss.

Read my last post because it is pretty clear you did not. I know that you have latched on to someone else's calendar system: so what? YOU keep preaching it around here so it is up for discussion. In fact how many of Jacob's threads have you derailed when they had nothing to do with the calendar, but mentioned the day, because he posts the day all the time like in a journal? I have seen more than a few times where you have taken the date, which he posts almost everywhere, and then use that to launch into your buffoonerous calendar all over again, surely knowing that the thread has nothing to do with the calendar, (especially if your IQ is as high as you claim: how could you not know what you were doing?). What's up with that? You do not wish to discuss your calendar it here in this thread all of the sudden? while everywhere else that is just about the only thing you ever want to discuss? Why would that be the case here and now? especially when it has everything to do with this thread? It is because you've just been proven flat out wrong and the calendar which you have latched onto is a lie.

If you cannot understand what has been said about Yom Kippurim being a weekly Shabbat shabbaton in the previous posts herein above then your IQ which you bragged about cannot actually be much higher than the high seventies, (lol). There is only one way that the tenth of the seventh month can be a weekly Shabbat of Rest, (and it has already been explained to you when you said I was insane, lol). If your calendar, (even though someone else invented it, duh), does not account for what has been said from the Torah herein, then your calendar, (even though someone else invented it, duh), is erroneous and cannot be "God's Calendar". Plain and simple for anyone with an IQ greater than 70.

Moreover if you do not understand what has been said then you do not know how or when to begin the seventh Hodesh, (and that is indeed on-topic).

 

[daqq]

:yawn:

"You do this and you don't do that. You are incorrect, you haven't studied enough. You are way off, what are you thinking?" - daqq

None of this relates to the OP. Please keep on topic.

:thumb: You are correct, but if you were not a hypocrite you would have quoted Patrick also, instead of thanking him for derailing your thread. :chuckle:

 

[daqq]

Originally Posted by Jacob
I am sorry but I was not necessarily taught about Rosh Hashanah in learning about the three annual feasts and the seven holy days of Torah and becoming Torah Observant.

Well you have been taught now. It's just your ignorance that's preventing you from accepting it as the truth.

Nope, you have been shown to be in error in your understanding of Rosh Hashanah: and if indeed you have actually taught anyone, you have not taught them anything but error. How does that not cause you any conflict within yourself, in your conscience? It is the same with your predictions, prognostications, and date settings for the appearance of the Anti-Christ, on 11 October 2022, and the return of Jesus, on 24 September 2029: when it was brought up last time, about how you might repent when you finally found out you were wrong, (in four and a half years or whatever), you said that you would not feel you have any need to repent and would simply go on with your life. Do you not realize the kind of damage people and teachings like that do to others when their teachings become widespread? I hope and pray you do not become famous like Harold Camping, O pseudo-prophet. :chuckle:

 

[daqq]

This is new type of insanity showing now. Sort of unhinged. I have never derailed any thread. If I respond to Jacobs Hillel calendar date with the correct date from God's Calendar then there is nothing wrong with that, on the contrary it is only helping him to learn the truth.

Your Yom Kippur theory does not disprove anything, the only reason why you can't see that is because you refuse to study from scripture how God's Calendar has it's Sabbaths on days 8,15,22 & 29 but I can't force you to study.

Again please try to keep to the OP.

It is not my "Yom Kippur theory" but rather what the Torah says and teaches. And it refutes your calendar because you do not have that day as a Shabbat on your calendar. Answer this question so that we may be perfectly clear: is Yom Kippur a Sabbath on your calendar or not? And if it is then how is Rosh Hashanah also a Sabbath, as you have claimed? (which is what started this whole discussion anyways). You are making claims which you cannot uphold under scrutiny and deeper inspection in comparison with the scripture because your calendar does not agree with the scripture, (regardless of who invented "your calendar").

 

[daqq]

Actually it was your post which was 'derailing'- which Patrick responded to. Your belief that Rosh Hashanah not being a Sabbath and mine that it is, has no bearing on when the month begins. Perhaps in your mind it does but not in reality.

The start of the month is when the new moon is seen over Jerusalem and the Sabbaths are then set by when that is, not the other way round.

Yes, it does have bearing on when the month begins because, as everyone but apparently you knows, you cannot have a Sabbath on the first and the tenth. And furthermore you have already claimed that the Sabbath is always on the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th of the months. You therefore are in error because you cannot have Sabbaths on the first, the eighth, and the tenth. And again you call me insane in the previous post? :crackup:

 

[daqq]

You're being OTT again. No one really cares about all this except you. Patrick is only here because he finds it amusing that two people can be so concerned/interested in this topic and Jacob couldn't debate anything even if he wanted to. Your concerns are all in your imagination. Nothing will happen like you imagine and we will probably forget about any of our conversations. I'd be surprised if you even remember me next year let alone in 4 years time.

Obfuscation and deflection: please try to stay within the parameters of your own discussion, and perhaps start answering the questions about the things that you yourself have stated right here in this your thread. How can you claim to be a teacher when you cannot answer the questions as to why your doctrine does not agree with the scripture? Aren't you claiming to be a believer of the Word? If so then why do you ignore the Word when it refutes your doctrine? That is not a teacher of the Word but a teacher who speaks only from and of himself and does not actually care about what the scripture truly teaches.

 

[Jacob]

Shalom.

Today is day 5 month 12 in the morning.

Shalom.

Shalom.

Today is Chamishi, 12-7. Boker, Morning. Yom, Day.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[Jacob]

This is new type of insanity showing now. Sort of unhinged. I have never derailed any thread. If I respond to Jacobs Hillel calendar date with the correct date from God's Calendar then there is nothing wrong with that, on the contrary it is only helping him to learn the truth.

Your Yom Kippur theory does not disprove anything, the only reason why you can't see that is because you refuse to study from scripture how God's Calendar has it's Sabbaths on days 8,15,22 & 29 but I can't force you to study.

Again please try to keep to the OP.

You gave a Hillel calendar date.

 

[chair]

Yes, it does have bearing on when the month begins because, as everyone but apparently you knows, you cannot have a Sabbath on the first and the tenth. And furthermore you have already claimed that the Sabbath is always on the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th of the months. You therefore are in error because you cannot have Sabbaths on the first, the eighth, and the tenth. And again you call me insane in the previous post? :crackup:

This so-called "God's calendar" fails for a very basic reason. It has 'weeks' that vary in length from 7 to 9 days, while the Bible says to work six days and rest on the seventh. The calendar is based on an incorrect idea of what the term "Sabbath" means. It simply means a rest day, when one doesn't work. So it can be a Shabbat (Saturday in modern English calendars), or a holiday, irrespective of what day of the week it lands on.

I've given up on Watchman. He is locked into various "insider theories", and likes to think that he really knows, while everybody else is ignorant and stupid. The most you will get out of him are insults and demands that you watch hours of videos that promote baseless theories.

In short- though he is a little entertaining at first, he isn't worth the bother in the long run.

Chair

 

[Jacob]

:doh: No you are always giving Hillel II calendar dates: https://www.chabad.org/calendar/1000year.asp?tdate=2/22/2018 because that's all you know.:yawn:

Today is still day 5 Adar in Jerusalem.

I meant when you said that there was a time when Hillel did something with a calendar. You gave a date. But it was not a Jewish date.

I don't know what you are talking about. Are you giving a Gentile date?

I am observing the 12th month. Perhaps we can also call the 12th month Adar. Two things with this. One, it is not the calendar from Torah. Two, it is Babylonian and Jewish and we can celebrate Purim.

I have not followed your link. However, I also do not know what you mean by saying "because that's all you know.".

So yes I observed Rosh Chodesh in the United States of America.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[Jacob]

I don't know why you are saying this.

Peace

Because my understanding is that you did something with your days when communicating with me, when I was representing the United States of America and you have said that you are not in the United States of America, and I observe the Jewish Calendar here, with Aviv as the first month.

 

[Jacob]

What does that mean.

Peace

It means that you have been addressing me in the United States of America. From two hours west of Israel.

 

[Jacob]

Why are you saying that.

Peace.

I infer that you are asking me a question.

Because I already know what day it is in the United States of America.

I recommend that you start, or begin, with the days of the week.

My understanding is that you know English.